"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Phenomenal art in the chapter. I'd honestly say that this best looking chapter the manga has produced so far.

I'm not still not sure how to feel about Goku's having the Hakai ability. You can perhaps handwave that by implying that Whis perhaps taught him that technique, but why would he? He's not training them to be Hakaishin. And if Goku knew he could do such a thing, why did he not think about using on Goku Black or Zamasu before they fused? That being said, I think it's awesome that Goku can do such a thing because if really emphasizes just how much Goku is ahead of the curve. But it just seems a bit too convenient for my taste.

I also can't help but feel like fight with Merged Zamasu is being padded out. Like how Goku Black and Zamasu apparently bonded on a cellular level allowing them to refuse separating when the Potara time limit ended, and chunks of Merged Zamasu turning into clones. I can't feel like those moments were very unusual choices to artificially extend the story.

All in all though, this was a quite a good chapter despite the very questionable narrative choices.

[emperior]

I was surprised Vegeta pulled off a new attack, that was definitely cool and I hope we will see it in the anime too.
The art was definitely nice in this chapter, probably because Toyotaro is such a Goku fanboy he always draws him very well (I'm not saying he focuses only on Goku's art, but it really feels like Toyotaro has drawn Goku so many times in his life and that's why he is always drawing him very good in the anime)
I don't like how Zamasu's body seems to be made out of gum like Buu's. He already feels too much like Buu (Super Buu) so it makes no sense to emphatise his immortality by having him constantly getting his body parts ripped off.
About Goku's Hakai, that was pointless. It shouldn't have been a thing. Not this early, at least, and not so randomly. Though it was still a cool moment and it's not like it made me rage to see it. But I don't like how clichè the manga gets sometimes, like Zamasu conveniently defusing when all hopes was lost.
As for the ending - that was great. I like the sense of despair, and I like how the manga is actually taking its time with the final battle - though I don't dislike what the anime did with it, in hindsight the battle with Merged Zamasu, in the anime, was great even though I would have preferred to see it last one more episode.

[Cetra]

I also can't help but feel like fight with Merged Zamasu is being padded out. Like how Goku Black and Zamasu apparently bonded on a cellular level allowing them to refuse separating when the Potara time limit ended, and chunks of Merged Zamasu turning into clones. I can't feel like those moments were very unusual choices to artificially extend the story.

I think it simply is because they share the same root. Long long ago there was just one Zamasu. They are two people, two individuals but being two Zamasus was apparently enough for the story. A Zamasu is a Zamasu (although it should not be like this actually, as I explain next). It also fits with what one of Toei's staff about the anime once said, that Merged Zamasu's weakness might come from being fused from the same person (even though psychologically/existentially that is not true but whatever, not everyone can be as nitpicky about consciousness/ego/self as I am and that it means that basically, even if they have to bother with more and more Zamasus, if there really is clone after clone and them not being like "Cooler-clone bodies that function under one entity" they still consciousness-wise killed the Merged Zamasu that started all of it and now bother with other ones - not that it would help them but my existential and psychological side makes this a bit less enjoyable for me).

And well, being fused all of it has that immortality thing to regenerate and then shapeshift into (a) Merged Zamasu. In my opinion the manga does not really show any true immortality - even the anime did it quite questionable, but - oh well.

About the first point though: Watashi wa yuiitsu no kami da/I am the only god - it is very possible that it still is Merged Zamasu himself who says this and he simply resists fading away to path way for two existences/gods again. It would actually very much fit Zamasu (and in my way be also more logical than why the fused in the first place as that does not make too much sense for such narcissistic guys, two Zamasus or not). But if that is really the case it makes no sense if the Replica Zamasus really are individuals because he still has others next to him. And that is why I do not like it when people use psychological and existential terms that when used properly can very much explain the right thing, do not use them properly/do not explain it well enough.

[Chelentano]

It's the third variation we see. He used it first against Recoome, then against Cell and now here. It's like the technique is accompanying Vegeta's progression: Pre-SSJ, SSJ and God Tier.
When put in these terms is actually a pretty cool progression. Nobody mentioned the attack in the leaks, so I was presently surprised when I saw it.

How was the attack called in those previous apparitions?

[TheMikado]

I liked it. The Hakai was cool but out of place. But I actually got real God of Destruction level vibes from both Goku and Vegeta and it actually felt like Zamasu would have actually given Beerus and even Whis a run for their money. I think this is the biggest difference. The sense of sheer power is at least consistent. I feel like Goku/Vegeta really are very powerful and comparable to Beerus. That's great and I love that aspect of it. The anime has trouble making you feel like Goku/Vegeta are really hundreds of millions of times more powerful than the other characters. Makes me wonder how he handles the tournament...

[SansrivaaL]

It's the third variation we see. He used it first against Recoome, then against Cell and now here. It's like the technique is accompanying Vegeta's progression: Pre-SSJ, SSJ and God Tier.
When put in these terms is actually a pretty cool progression. Nobody mentioned the attack in the leaks, so I was presently surprised when I saw it.

Yeah, I love how Future Trunks has done so much without power. He still has the best moment in the manga for me (sacrificing himself so the other could escape).

Somebody should draw Fused Zamasu playing a board game with Goku and flipping the table because he's losing.

Oh that is awesome, did a quick search on all of those attacks and yeah they did look different as each form he gets goes by, its a nice add, made his Gamma move a lot more cooler.

He'll start flippin out by just seeing Goku... him throwing those katchin blocks really fits his personality.

[Zephyr]

I worded it wrong. What I meant to say was that I won't be mad at this chapter if you can show Beerus giving Goku the hakai energy.
But still, I hate that there are people that compare this chapter to the anime. What the anime did way have a God of Destruction give someone his destruction energy to use. With the manga Goku uses a technique specially for the God of Destruction. The only thing that is somewhat related is that someone other than God of Destruction is using hakai technique.

Ah, my mistake.

Regardless, there's literally nothing that says that the technique is somehow only reserved for a God of Destruction. These are made up rules being contradicted. And even still, why do you need to see Goku being granted the ability? He's fought a God of Destruction personally, he's lived with one for several months, and trained with said God of Destruction's attendant/martial arts master. It's more than plausible that Goku might have been able to pick this sort of thing up. Case in point: we literally see someone able to use this sort of stuff in the anime! Was I expecting him to learn this technique? No, I wasn't, but something happening by surprise by itself doesn't make it poorly written.

This is the same shit as Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 staying stronger. Well they didn't spell it out for us, which means them implying it is an icky plothole! We have no explicit confirmation that Bulma and Vegeta have ever had sex. Where the fuck did Trunks come from!? And how did Bulma get pregnant with Bra!? Remember, when you try to answer these: you can't use inductive reasoning or connect the dots. If they didn't spell it out on the nose, then it couldn't have happened, and Akira is a hack.

Nobody's under any obligation to like this stuff, but holy shit, please stop using literal toddler logic to try and justify this random hateboner.

[LightBing]

It's the third variation we see. He used it first against Recoome, then against Cell and now here. It's like the technique is accompanying Vegeta's progression: Pre-SSJ, SSJ and God Tier.
When put in these terms is actually a pretty cool progression. Nobody mentioned the attack in the leaks, so I was presently surprised when I saw it.

How was the attack called in those previous apparitions?

The one against Recoome is the only one that wasn't named in the manga, I think some video games gave it one. Against Cell it's the Final Flash, which you probable already know.

[Abra kadabra]

Toyotaro writing is so lifeless. I don't even know why or who they're fighting for. Everything feels so pointless and dragged out.

[Chelentano]

It's the third variation we see. He used it first against Recoome, then against Cell and now here. It's like the technique is accompanying Vegeta's progression: Pre-SSJ, SSJ and God Tier.
When put in these terms is actually a pretty cool progression. Nobody mentioned the attack in the leaks, so I was presently surprised when I saw it.

How was the attack called in those previous apparitions?

The one against Recoome is the only one that wasn't named in the manga, I think some video games gave it one. Against Cell it's the Final Flash, which you probable already know.

Indeed. Thank you for your reply.

[Cetra]

How was the attack called in those previous apparitions?

The one against Recoome is the only one that wasn't named in the manga, I think some video games gave it one. Against Cell it's the Final Flash, which you probable already know.

Indeed. Thank you for your reply.

You probably mean the Final Crash.

[Quantum-Kakarrotto]

I loved this chapter a lot. The artwork was beautiful as always and I loved how Toyotaro drew Goku Black just standing there smirking with a sword through his back.

Goku attempting to do the "Hakai" was awesome to see, and him suddenly learning new techniques is nothing new, he learned Kamehameha just by watching Roshi do it once and Vegeta and Goku have been training with Beerus and Whis for a long while now, one of them has to have seen the Hakai and this chapter really implies that they have.
Also, just seeing Trunks stab Goku Black was very satisfying since this is the guy who's destroyed his future and killed his mother! I'm so happy that happened even though he just came back immortal. Vegeta going SSB again and using a new attack was surprising as well considering the risks, but this is in Vegeta's character since he's gotten a power boost from being angry is nothing new either, it actually reminded me of when Cell killed Trunks and Vegeta went full rampage on him.

With how this chapter is lining up I can pretty much see next chapter will possibly be the Zeno button stuff unless Toyotaro pulls another one on us and actually ignores it for something else. Can't wait till next month.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 25-

With the exception of Goku's Hakai bullshit that I will talk next, this was actually a great read. Some interesting composition too.

SSB Goku vs Merged Zamasu is now my favourite fight in the manga.

Merged Zamasu being buff is something I don't like. He's supposed to be a "elegant" godly figure, not a body builder. Not even Goku Black gave me the impression of being this muscular.

I like how he used FT Mai as a shield.

I suppose in Toriyama's outline there's a line where it says something like "FT Trunks cuts both of them together and makes things worse."
In the anime FT Trunks cut Merged Zamasu, in the manga he takes advantage of the diffusion and cuts them both.

Goku saying FT Trunks protected the Earth and Kaioshin saying he defeated Black, after he barely did anything major on his own arc, made those comments laughable.

First "My Bulma", now "My Trunks"... One as bad as the other. Oh God!

I've been complaining about Vegeta not getting a new attack in Super since he trained 3 years in the Time Chamber with Goku in Champa arc and came out without anything new.
I will take this Gamma Burst Flash. I'm just disappointed Toyotaro didn't give him this sooner. Now I would like the anime to give Vegeta something new too.

Toyotaro's lack of creativity keeps being obvious though. Merged Zamasu first spammed Katchin blocks, then he used portals like Janemba, and now he's using clones like
Tenshinhan/Cell/Meta-Coola...

Both versions rushed SSB Vegetto vs Merged Zamasu fight, but I like the manga's pacing more of what happens afterwards for now. I have to read the next chapter before praising this part properly, because if they just summon FT Zeno in the beginning of next chapter there's nothing to praise here.

Just like the anime I can feel the tension and how desperate the situation is here. It's stuff like this that makes it obvious serious DB > gag DB always for me and how I rather this kind of serious arcs with a major villain to defeat than being restricted to Tournament arcs. Even though I'm loving Universe Survival arc, I hope we go back to this kind of arc next.

I'm glad Toyotaro is not rushing it since this arc overall is a success and I want to have a proper manga version of it. I approve the pacing and I just wish the manga had been like this since the beginning.


-Goku's Hakai-

It's the most bullshit thing since Super began.

Assuming that Humans can do it, and that's a big assumption, because there was ever nothing proving that Humans were able to do it, and so far in the anime we just saw Beerus
and Sidra, two Hakaishins to do it there are still questions that shall be asked.

When did Goku/Vegeta saw it?
Both of them know about it and yet none of them saw it on-screen. I'm also not imagining a situation where Hakai would casually be talked about.

Why Beerus would show an OP technique like that to those two and have the risk of being used against him later?
Goku already said he's not interested to be a Hakaishin either and completely erase stuff is not something his character likes to do.

Frankly I don't see why Humans, with God ki or not, should be able to get a ability to completely erase stuff since that's Hakaishin's job. Should someone like Golden Freeza learn of that, it's just troubles waiting to happen.

I also don't like the excuse "Goku can mimic everything he sees" because that means he can use every technique he saw since Dragon Ball begun.

Toyotaro will most likely do a bonus page explaining this in the manga volume but still, show the most OP technique of the franchise off-screen to the main character is something I can't accept.

[mute_proxy]

Goku's hakai isn't BS at all. He can use god ki, and if you forgot, he learned Kamehameha in an instant after seeing Roshi do it. Since the start of Super? How about Trunks learning the Mafuba from a phone video in 5 minutes? Oh wait... Goku never saw Hakai. Toyotaro is probably getting confused between anime and manga

[OLKv3]

How does it make any sense for Goku Black and Zamasu to both mutate into 2 separate Merged Zamasu's, complete with 2 potaras on each ear?!

This chapter looked beautiful and all but it makes no sense.

It's gonna be explained next chapter. You can tell by the ending having them ask the question.

[SansrivaaL]

Goku's hakai isn't BS at all. He can use god ki, and if you forgot, he learned Kamehameha in an instant after seeing Roshi do it. Since the start of Super? How about Trunks learning the Mafuba from a phone video in 5 minutes?

Because first they want Goku and Vegeta to actually get a page where they see the hakai, next they want it to be exclusive to only the GoDs because its an OP move, they dont want Goku having an OP technique because they initially thought *hakai* was a move only the GoDs know for some reason because of its name and OPness.

[Abra kadabra]

Using the anime to deflect the problems in the manga isn't sound logic.

[Alruneia]

Goku attempting to do the "Hakai" was awesome to see, and him suddenly learning new techniques is nothing new, he learned Kamehameha just by watching Roshi do it once and Vegeta and Goku have been training with Beerus and Whis for a long while now, one of them has to have seen the Hakai and this chapter really implies that they have.

Since Goku outright states that he's borrowing Beerus' technique and Vegeta also identifies it as such, they must both have seen it. It's perfectly reasonable that they've seen Beerus hakai something in the year they trained on his planet with Whis. There's no problem here unless you feel the need to see absolutely everything, in which case Vegeta, Goten and both Trunkses being Super Saiyans in the original manga is also a problem, and I'm sure there are other examples.

Also, just seeing Trunks stab Goku Black was very satisfying since this is the guy who's destroyed his future and killed his mother! I'm so happy that happened even though he just came back immortal.

I mostly agree with that, it was good to see Trunks help, but I think I'd be more satisfied if it actually killed Black, while Zamasu alone turned back into the merged form and started cloning around. It might not make much sense that way, but Trunks deserves it, dammit.

Vegeta going SSB again and using a new attack was surprising as well considering the risks, but this is in Vegeta's character since he's gotten a power boost from being angry is nothing new either, it actually reminded me of when Cell killed Trunks and Vegeta went full rampage on him.

Considering that Trunks got a hole in him both times, it's safe to say that that's the call-back. Also, personally I'd like it if the Gamma Burst Flash wasn't just an upgraded Final Flash, but an energy wave is an energy wave.

With how this chapter is lining up I can pretty much see next chapter will possibly be the Zeno button stuff unless Toyotaro pulls another one on us and actually ignores it for something else. Can't wait till next month.

I'd consider the multiplying Zamasus the manga equivalent of Giygas-Zamasu in the anime, so Zen'ou should be the only thing left to do. At least I hope so. Future Zen'ou is part of the outline, I'm pretty sure, so the story must go there eventually. If it somehow doesn't end next time, it ends in the one after that.

[Zephyr]

Since the start of Super? How about Trunks learning the Mafuba from a phone video in 5 minutes?

Don't forget Trunks doing a Genki Dama despite having less reason to know of it or how to use it than Goku would this move. Or Black causing his own existence. Or the anime spending 9 hours of screen time retelling 2 already-released films instead of doing proper planning. Or this wonderful music placement.

[OLKv3]

Earlier in the arc Beerus is talking about how Goku is still wet behind the years and will take forever to finally surpass him as God of Destruction. To me this meant Beerus and Whis are still training them in the ways of a GoD. So Goku seeing Hakai isn't a reach for me at all. Not to mention the only way he was able to use it was by fully using God Ki. It's weird how people have a problem with a mortal using a God technique, but no problem with a mortal using God Ki. Goku and Vegeta are the only mortals shown to be using God Ki anyway, it's one of the reasons Zamasu is pissed after all

This is my favorite chapter. I loved the fight and the stakes being raised. Only thing I don't like is the whole "Zamasu is back stronger than ever!" thing. I didn't like it in the anime with the sky jpegs and I don't like it here.
People of course are being way too hard on the chapter because they feel the need to defend their precious anime, and it's a big reason why I don't really like the DB fanbase anymore. It's extremely childish.