"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Bardock God of Time]

I just feel like Frieza Saga III needs to happen

Bring back the ruthless Frieza from the first Frieza Saga and not be a complete joke from Frieza Saga II.

They could set it up to bring someone like Cooler into the fray or maybe Frieza brings back King Cold like he was originally going to do?

They could delve into the backstory behind Frieza's race, maybe getting Frost involved because he wants to get back at Frieza over the Tournament of Power.

There is lot's of potential in this Frieza saga I'm just saying. We need to kill off Frieza for good imo. Have Vegeta Hakai Frieza as the finishing blow.

[Jiren The Alpha]

I get the impression that was the younger Toriyama and that the old Toriyama had become duller.

*laughts in Future Trunks timeline*

Yeah, auto correction by my phone there (wtf had instead of has).

I mean, we also have Piccolo and Gohan being main characters in a movie and getting new forms. Non of those things did the fans ever predict was gonna happen. I thing the DB fanbase just need to accept that this "senile old man" will always outplay them, whenever they want to admit it or not .

[SupremeKai25]

*laughts in Future Trunks timeline*

Yeah, auto correction by my phone there (wtf had instead of has).

I mean, we also have Piccolo and Gohan being main characters in a movie and getting new forms. Non of those things did the fans ever predict was gonna happen. I thing the DB fanbase just need to accept that this "senile old man" will always outplay them, whenever they want to admit it or not .

It's a hit or miss.

Fans didn't expect Trunks to fail to defend his timeline from Zamasu, nor that Gohan and Piccolo would get their own movie.

But a lot of fan theories also expected some kind of plot twist in the ToP arc, like the Grand Priest being revealed as a villain (mostly because the Anime kept showing him in an ominous way) or another Universe (most theories focused on U11 and U6) winning. But nothing happened. There was no plot twist. It was a normal tournament that proceeded as planned and U7/Goku won.

The bottom line is that Frieza has a history of thinking that he's got ahead and then promptly getting wrecked. That happened with Mecha Frieza and it also happened with Golden Frieza. Golden Frieza's revenge was very short-lived and he got annihilated once again, but maybe third time's the charm.

I also find Black Frieza to be very overhyped. What did he do that was impressive? Beat Goku and Vegeta who were exhausted and battle-worn? Needing 10 years of special training to surpass Goku and Vegeta (who didn't have 10 years of special training)? He's not that impressive and I don't predict an entire arc centred around him.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Yeah, auto correction by my phone there (wtf had instead of has).

I mean, we also have Piccolo and Gohan being main characters in a movie and getting new forms. Non of those things did the fans ever predict was gonna happen. I thing the DB fanbase just need to accept that this "senile old man" will always outplay them, whenever they want to admit it or not .

It's a hit or miss.

Fans didn't expect Trunks to fail to defend his timeline from Zamasu, nor that Gohan and Piccolo would get their own movie.

But a lot of fan theories also expected some kind of plot twist in the ToP arc, like the Grand Priest being revealed as a villain (mostly because the Anime kept showing him in an ominous way) or another Universe (most theories focused on U11 and U6) winning. But nothing happened. There was no plot twist. It was a normal tournament that proceeded as planned and U7/Goku won.

The bottom line is that Frieza has a history of thinking that he's got ahead and then promptly getting wrecked. That happened with Mecha Frieza and it also happened with Golden Frieza. Golden Frieza's revenge was very short-lived and he got annihilated once again, but maybe third time's the charm.

I also find Black Frieza to be very overhyped. What did he do that was impressive? Beat Goku and Vegeta who were exhausted and battle-worn? Needing 10 years of special training to surpass Goku and Vegeta (who didn't have 10 years of special training)? He's not that impressive and I don't predict an entire arc centred around him.

they eat senzu beans before they fought him and still got one shot in they strongest forms and before that Frieza one shot Gas, who was beating them.

I agree, i don't thing Frieza is gonna be the main villian, but probably still help Goku when he is gonna fight the main villian. I don't even thing he is gonna get kill, even after EOZ lol.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Cute set of interstitial illustrations for Super Volume 22 - Beerus and co. watching Goku and Vegeta as the pair fight and fight and fight and fight without any visible progress (Beerus finishes his ice cream and gets bored quickly; Whis leaves and comes back with tea) - almost like it's checking in with a "progress update" as the main plot actually does stuff. Seems like maybe a cute, dry bit of humour sending up the incongruity and thinness of the Goku-Vegeta B 'Plot' for Super Hero.

Also nice to see Merus and Moro on the spine art for Volumes 21 and 22. About time some Manga-Exclusive characters took a place in the banner illustration.

[Lukmendes]

I mean, we also have Piccolo and Gohan being main characters in a movie and getting new forms. Non of those things did the fans ever predict was gonna happen. I thing the DB fanbase just need to accept that this "senile old man" will always outplay them, whenever they want to admit it or not .

The guy came up with fucking Daima and nobody would predict everyone being de-aged like GT Goku, so yeah, fans try to make predictions based on what they want and logical followups to the story, while Toriyama has a weird idea and goes for it because he does what he wants now.

It's a hit or miss.

Fans didn't expect Trunks to fail to defend his timeline from Zamasu, nor that Gohan and Piccolo would get their own movie.

But a lot of fan theories also expected some kind of plot twist in the ToP arc, like the Grand Priest being revealed as a villain (mostly because the Anime kept showing him in an ominous way) or another Universe (most theories focused on U11 and U6) winning. But nothing happened. There was no plot twist. It was a normal tournament that proceeded as planned and U7/Goku won.

Toyotaro's panels were also used to all but state something was up with Grant Priest, only for it to not be the case.

The bottom line is that Frieza has a history of thinking that he's got ahead and then promptly getting wrecked. That happened with Mecha Frieza and it also happened with Golden Frieza. Golden Frieza's revenge was very short-lived and he got annihilated once again, but maybe third time's the charm.

I also find Black Frieza to be very overhyped. What did he do that was impressive? Beat Goku and Vegeta who were exhausted and battle-worn? Needing 10 years of special training to surpass Goku and Vegeta (who didn't have 10 years of special training)? He's not that impressive and I don't predict an entire arc centred around him.

Goku and Vegeta did get heale right before, and Freeza casually beat up Gas who was beating up both Goku and Vegeta.

Black Freeza is definitely strong, but he's boring, another shitty recolor after we already got a lazy one with Golden Freeza...

[ChronoTwigger]

Black Frieza is truly a strange subject.
Obviously there are all the conditions for it to appear. Not least the fact that Goku, Broly and Vegeta are training specifically for this. It must be said that the leitmotif of all Super (Goku vs Beerus) must be resolved, otherwise everything goes down the drain. It would be like showing the ghost of the King of Denmark, and then Hamlet doesn't give a damn and instead goes drifting on the post-atomic streets of Kaliningrad. There is no continuity or narrative sense.

It's also true that this is really movie stuff. Since DBS:SH was announced as a duology, I expect the Super saga, ***which started because of a movie***, to end with a movie.
The TV series as a bridge for indepths between the films, and, in the absence of the show, let the manga take care of it.
In my opinion, therefore, we will still have manga for a while, full of fillers, waiting for this Black Frieza film which closes the SUPER franchise.
It might even go on hiatus, but I don't think so. Considering they stretched everything for a year with DBS:SH, you can always stretch things out with "The magical adventures of Goku and Broly at the fish market", "Pomodoro the terrible alien avenger without a plot" and "Spaghetti and Fettunta, the randomly sized demons that will spotlight Vegeta."
The fact is, I don't care. Given that the appearance of Black Frieza is in my opinion the lowest point ever reached by Dragon Ball ever (even Oolong SuperSayan would have been more logical and less tacky), they could still redeem themselves if the transformation had a drawback of some kind. No Frieza had ever trained, maybe there are side effects.
But I don't care. We started with the question: what kind of power would a Super Saiyan God have? Will he be able to defeat a hostile God? To arrive at a soup of situations drawn at random from a D&D encounter table.

*WORST OF ALL* would still be showing Black Frieza and then not using him.
There really in my opinion it would be the philological death of Dragon Ball. Total death, beyond the intervention of a Universal Sphere Dragon.
-Look Luke, that's Darth Vad- ah, no, wait, he's gone. Oh well, forget it. He's like Chuck Cunningham. No, I'm serious, pretend you didn't see it. Now you will have to fight SKELETOR. The Jedi have always fought Skeletor. Have I ever told you about it? I said: forget about Darth Vader, he just photobombed, it's not him you have to deal with. Yes, of course, he would be your father, he killed your mother, he cut off your hand, but assume that this didn't happen, you'll never see him again. Now let's think about Castle Greyskull, okay? -

[FortuneSSJ]

Another Toyotaro win. Love it!



It's surreal to finally have some official 2D artwork of these forms. Even in Heroes cards they have been using the CGI models.
It's likely Toyotaro will reuse this for the next volume cover.

[Magnificent Ponta]

It's surreal to finally have some official 2D artwork of these forms.

Just as a small point here: Orange Piccolo, at least, does have official 2D artwork already - from Toriyama himself, no less (left hand image linked).

His inclusion on the V-Jump cover here does look cool though - Toyotarou's done it well; it's characterful and well-executed. I like it better than the Gohan Beast part of the image, where the angle seems maybe a smidge awkward somehow.

[FortuneSSJ]

And another W from Toyotaro. This one is from Jump Festa



Moro and Granolah arcs started around this time, but there were no news this time in Jump Festa about a new arc. Maybe they wanna keep it as surprise, but I would keep my expectations low. I have a bad feeling about this.

[Noah]

I haven't been following the manga much, but has the Super Hero arc ended? Did Goten and Trunks get more spotlight, and did Toyotaro provide a better explanation for Piccolo and Gohan's transformations?

[Hugo Boss]

I haven't been following the manga much, but has the Super Hero arc ended? Did Goten and Trunks get more spotlight, and did Toyotaro provide a better explanation for Piccolo and Gohan's transformations?

It covered pretty much all the movie content, leaving possible future developments for Carmine. Goten and Trunks had more involvement in defeating Cell Max, specially in the final beam struggle. No explanation about the new transformations so far.

[Basaku]

I just feel like Frieza Saga III needs to happen

Bring back the ruthless Frieza from the first Frieza Saga and not be a complete joke from Frieza Saga II.

They could set it up to bring someone like Cooler into the fray or maybe Frieza brings back King Cold like he was originally going to do?

They could delve into the backstory behind Frieza's race, maybe getting Frost involved because he wants to get back at Frieza over the Tournament of Power.

There is lot's of potential in this Frieza saga I'm just saying. We need to kill off Frieza for good imo. Have Vegeta Hakai Frieza as the finishing blow.

TBH I was under the impression that everyone expected the next big Frieza act to involve the whole "topple the gods/Zeno" angle and scheming, rather than a simplistic "just Goku & Vegeta vs Frieza again"? Or at least that's how it was few years back. Guess the expectations changed with the new Black transformation

[Magnificent Ponta]

I don't recall us talking about this, but there was another New Year Interview with Toyotarou. Not anything really impactful or revelatory (there will be a second part on the 8th, and this seems more geared towards drawing manga rather than making An Announcement or whatever), more a retrospective of the last 100 Chapters with some interesting tidbits here and there:

• He's proud of being praised by Toriyama for his improvisations in Chapter 31 (the first Chapter of gathering the warriors for the Tournament of Power), which gave him confidence that he could do more of his own thing with the work (though he doesn't like to change things in such a way as would undercut the original story - he much prefers to put references in);
• Son Goku is his favourite character, but he feels Vegeta's character has changed the most (implicitly, in the most interesting ways);
• His favourite design from Super is Granolah - it was his attempt to do the coolest design he could; Toriyama approved the design on the first pass. He also likes his design of Granolah's ship when it comes to mechas;
• His favourite storyline from Super is the Super Hero Prequel arc; he liked getting to stuff it full of things that he wanted to write, and hopes to do more of that sort of thing in future;
• His favourite battle from Super is the climax of the Moro arc; he also loved doing the Uub and Freeza reveals for the Moro and Granolah arcs;
• Toyotarou generally alternates between peaceful and intense scenes in his Volume cover illustrations; he likes Volume 19's the best (Uchida likes Volume 22)
• Apparently a poll on the best lines from Dragon Ball Super was run, and "I was the worst apprentice who never listened" won; Toyotarou's favourite, however, is Muten Roshi asking Goku where he got the idea that true strength is "plain old fighting strength" [Note: This pleases me greatly, since the moment as a whole is probably my favourite in Super]. The line is one he came up with himself, and he likes the way the dialogue of the scene flows, including the callback to the original.

[Basaku]

His favourite storyline from Super is the Super Hero Prequel arc; he liked getting to stuff it full of things that he wanted to write, and hopes to do more of that sort of thing in future;

Not even surprised. The whole mini arc comes off like it came out so effortlessly for him, just naturally flowing from panel to panel and almost 'writing itself'. Granted, I'm not happy how much more chara developement/quirks Trunks got versus Goten but his work on Trunks is just splendid and could serve as a tutorial how to quickly write a lively character you instantly fall in love with. Just seems like shifting the focus to the boys and granting them the writer's attention is what he wanted to do for a long time

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Looking back, Roshi teaching Goku the basics again makes a lot of sense. Toyotaro foreshadowed Goku’s character regress in Super Hero.

[Mireya]

Is kid Trunks confirmed as = CGs Future Trunks? Vegeta stated to #17 before the ToP that his kid is as good as the Trunks he saw and while it could be in reference to androids saga Trunks, it's possible Vegeta got the information of 17 seeing things through Cell off screen, as 17 said that to Goku and Goku spoke things to Vegeta later, which is also backed up by Goten and Trunks struggling, but still fending off the Cell Juniors, a feat androids saga future Trunks couldn't accomplish. Maybe this puts the Boo arc kids as around CGs Vegeta/Trunks/Cell Juniors as the most official placement for them.

[NeoZ Duwang]

I'm sure Toyotaro didn't even think anybody would interpret this as anything more than "Vegeta is telling 17 that his son is strong", he's not making a statement of which characters has better feats or anything

I doubt that Vegeta remember exactly how strong Future Trunks was more than a decade ago, but both people involved in the conversation knew he was strong, so that's all that matters

[Lukmendes]

Looking back, Roshi teaching Goku the basics again makes a lot of sense. Toyotaro foreshadowed Goku’s character regress in Super Hero.

Granolah arc also foreshadowed using dragon balls for an easy power up.

Is kid Trunks confirmed as = CGs Future Trunks? Vegeta stated to #17 before the ToP that his kid is as good as the Trunks he saw and while it could be in reference to androids saga Trunks, it's possible Vegeta got the information of 17 seeing things through Cell off screen, as 17 said that to Goku and Goku spoke things to Vegeta later, which is also backed up by Goten and Trunks struggling, but still fending off the Cell Juniors, a feat androids saga future Trunks couldn't accomplish. Maybe this puts the Boo arc kids as around CGs Vegeta/Trunks/Cell Juniors as the most official placement for them.

When the fusion within Buu ended, Buu got Piccolo's clothes, not Trunks' or Goten's, so I think this means they're still weaker than Piccolo, and meaning still below Vegeta/Trunks from Cell Games in that case, unless when the fusion ended they also were at base form for some reason.

Though if they are weaker than Piccolo, it is a noticeable power up for them to keep up with Cell Juniors well enough lol.

I'm sure Toyotaro didn't even think anybody would interpret this as anything more than "Vegeta is telling 17 that his son is strong", he's not making a statement of which characters has better feats or anything

I doubt that Vegeta remember exactly how strong Future Trunks was more than a decade ago, but both people involved in the conversation knew he was strong, so that's all that matters

Characters in DB tend to memorize how strong someone was years ago, most noticeably Gohan back in Cell games, so I'd say that any power comparison is most likely to be accurate.

[Mireya]

Lukmendes

It's likely they were in base as the fusion ran off. When SSJ3 Gotenks defused, he turned right into base Gotenks, likely since they fused starting with the fusers as base. Since they also started the fusion right before being absorbed in their base states, it stand to reason they got down to base... Now though, they came back to base Gotenks first, not the separated individuals... But right after it they also defused. Since base Gotenks is definitely not below Piccolo, either the defusion to the single warriors was too quick... Or since Boo could use more time with SSJ3 than they normally could, the consequence was that running off SSJ3 would be running off fusion completely... Leading to their base states.


Note: I hope I'm tagging you right, since I don't see a tagging function here (maybe I'm blind) but since ppl's names tagged get bolded, I assume that's the tool to be used.