"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Rakurai]

Goku lost his martial arts way for a moment, and what did he do when Roshi showed him his flimsy UI footwork? Literally exactly what you just said.

How can you say he lost his way for a "moment" now when earlier you said he's ignored/forgotten his teachings for decades(since Raditz) and has relied solely on strength throughout his life?

I meant "in that moment" in the context of that particular scene with Roshi. But you're right, that is not what I meant. Goku lost his way since he started fighting the Saiyans and enemies vastly stronger than him, relying on Saiyan genetics and god ki. That's not how the concept of UI should be approached. Roshi says you practice martial arts to "conquer yourself, not others."

[Rakurai]

Its clear from your posts that you seem incapable of seeing anything Toriyama or Toyotaro does critically, no matter how bad. No wonder manga-fans get called Toyocucks smh (even by folks who also hate the anime).

It's quite clear you have a problem with criticism and different views if you resort to the idea of "Toyocucks." You're no better than those who have to resort to terms like GT fanboy, Brolytard, dub elitist, etc. You can't take opinions or realize the notion that writing quality is subjective, and that there are people who prefer Toyotarou's approach over the anime's at multiple points and for good reasons too.

Very immature, pathetic, and reveals your insecure opinion about the things you like and want to defend.

[Marlowe89]

Its clear from your posts that you seem incapable of seeing anything Toriyama or Toyotaro does critically, no matter how bad. No wonder manga-fans get called Toyocucks smh (even by folks who also hate the anime).

I don't even know where to start.

There is no reason for you to take these discussions as personally as you do. We're just people on a forum exchanging opinions and preferences about a franchise largely aimed at children. It's not a competition, my guy. You don't have to work yourself into a frenzy with these crusade-type posts every time you read a viewpoint that challenges your own. You don't have to jump to conclusions about their supposed inability to be critical just because they don't agree with you. Nobody's character needs to be attacked. Nobody's livelihood is at risk. You're going to be fine.

More importantly, I think you need to work on being less insecure and comfortable enough with your own position that you can post it without immediately name-calling a user who only replied to you a single time so far.

[batistabus]

snip

If you need to resort to calling me a "Toyocuck" in your first paragraph, it's clear that you have nothing worth saying.

To address point #1, read the following. The rest can be inferred by reading between the lines:
This.
And this.

If you're interested in a serious conversation, try again.

[TKA]

"betraying fan expectations"

This interview is amazing. I remembered some tidbits from it, but forgot most of it. Thanks for posting this. Toriyama was Rian Johnsoning before Rian Johnson ever Rian Johnson'd. Dragonball is all about subverting expectations, after all.

[IM21]

"betraying fan expectations"

This interview is amazing. I remembered some tidbits from it, but forgot most of it. Thanks for posting this. Toriyama was Rian Johnsoning before Rian Johnson ever Rian Johnson'd. Dragonball is all about subverting expectations, after all.

ugh.. reading Ruin Johnson's name makes me wanna puke. That ''insert bad word'' destroyed SW for me and for a lot of people. Toriyama makes some weird decisions, but it still feels like DB.

[zarmack]

Its clear from your posts that you seem incapable of seeing anything Toriyama or Toyotaro does critically, no matter how bad. No wonder manga-fans get called Toyocucks smh (even by folks who also hate the anime).

I don't even know where to start.

There is no reason for you to take these discussions as personally as you do. We're just people on a forum exchanging opinions and preferences about a franchise largely aimed at children. It's not a competition, my guy. You don't have to work yourself into a frenzy with these crusade-type posts every time you read a viewpoint that challenges your own. You don't have to jump to conclusions about their supposed inability to be critical just because they don't agree with you. Nobody's character needs to be attacked. Nobody's livelihood is at risk. You're going to be fine.

More importantly, I think you need to work on being less insecure and comfortable enough with your own position that you can post it without immediately name-calling a user who only replied to you a single time so far.

You are projecting yourself. You guys are the ones taking it personal, and I didn't call him a Toyocuck. I pointed out that you guys tend to get called Toyocucks because y'all tend to go out your way to defend and rationalize the DBS manga's shortcomings instead of simply admit a flaw when its there. Its fanatical behavior.

[zarmack]

snip

If you need to resort to calling me a "Toyocuck" in your first paragraph, it's clear that you have nothing worth saying.

Ad homniem fallacy. Didn't address any of my arguments.

To address point #1, read the following. The rest can be inferred by reading between the lines:
This.
And this.

If you're interested in a serious conversation, try again.

1. None of the links you posted in anyway justify the manga's writing.

2. Nowhere was it ever stated in either interview that Kale and Caulfila where created to appeal to the West. And the whole "Broly is mainly/only popular in the West" myth has been debunked multiple times already (seriously, he was already given 3 movies long before the series was marketed to the West, was given a 4th one that's exclusive to Universal Studios Japan, and is the most consistently marketed villain in Dragonball Heroes, a Japan only product.).

And "overseas" includes other areas outside Japan, such as the rest of (South) East Asia, Latin America, some MidEast countries, etc. All of which have a bigger fanbase for DB and anime in general than the West.

[Noah]

Still no leaks? Damn, this is disappointing.

[AnimeNation101]

I wish we could still send Toriyama fan mail. And then everyone in the west says give us a shit story with no plot.

Still no leaks? Damn, this is disappointing.

Also, leaks have already happened.

http://ryokutya2089.com/archives/16368

Apparently Goku and Vegeta (at least temporarily) are joining the Galactic Patrol. Also the guys says something about it being fitting that the Grand Kaioshin and Buu have similar lines.

[Kinokima]

I wish we could still send Toriyama fan mail. And then everyone in the west says give us a shit story with no plot.

Still no leaks? Damn, this is disappointing.

Also, leaks have already happened.

http://ryokutya2089.com/archives/16368

Apparently Goku and Vegeta (at least temporarily) are joining the Galactic Patrol. Also the guys says something about it being fitting that the Grand Kaioshin and Buu have similar lines.

Are they getting paid?

[TKA]

ugh.. reading Ruin Johnson's name makes me wanna puke. That ''insert bad word'' destroyed SW for me and for a lot of people. Toriyama makes some weird decisions, but it still feels like DB.

I love Rian Johnson and I love how bad Star Wars is under Disney. These things made people realize what a genius George Lucas is and that the creator is the best at their own franchise.

I've seen it with Toriyama and Dragonball. I've seen it with Richard Garfield and Magic the Gathering. I've seen it with Kazuki Takahashi and Yugioh.

No matter how good fans and colleagues are, they can't quite capture the media the way the creator can.

[batistabus]

I didn't call him a Toyocuck. I pointed out that you guys tend to get called Toyocucks

Nice try.

Ad homniem fallacy. Didn't address any of my arguments.

You started your argument with "Toyotaro fucks your wife". I'm not going to take you seriously after that. This isn't /a/ or wherever you supposedly hear "Toyocuck" all the time. That type of behavior isn't welcome here, and you shouldn't expect users to take the time to engage with you when you start like that.

1. None of the links you posted in anyway justify the manga's writing.

I was addressing your comment questioning the validity of my claim that Kale was designed with foreigners in mind. I made no attempt to address your other points.

2. Nowhere was it ever stated in either interview that Kale and Caulfila where created to appeal to the West. And the whole "Broly is mainly/only popular in the West" myth has been debunked multiple times already (seriously, he was already given 3 movies long before the series was marketed to the West, was given a 4th one that's exclusive to Universal Studios Japan, and is the most consistently marketed villain in Dragonball Heroes, a Japan only product.).

Just because you've decided something in your mind, that doesn't mean it's debunked.

I didn't say that Broly wasn't popular in Japan, but Toei specifically references him when they refer to the tastes of overseas fans. Even if it weren't true that Broly was more popular overseas, Toei thinks he is, and has made decisions accordingly.

And "overseas" includes other areas outside Japan, such as the rest of (South) East Asia, Latin America, some MidEast countries, etc. All of which have a bigger fanbase for DB and anime in general than the West.

1. I said the West because that is largely the demographic Toei is referring to.
2. Latin America is the West.
3. Whether they actually meant the West or not, they are emphasizing the importance of Broly because of some foreign market. Designing Kale around a specific market demographic is what I'm complaining about.
4. Do you have a source to back up your implication that Dragon Ball makes more money in those other areas combined than North America/South America/Europe/Australia combined? I'm having trouble finding up-to-date statistics for anime and manga, but it certainly isn't the case for video games or films. I've provided you with several sources already, so let's see one from you that isn't TotallyNotMark.

[zarmack]

I didn't call him a Toyocuck. I pointed out that you guys tend to get called Toyocucks

Nice try.

Ad homniem fallacy. Didn't address any of my arguments.

You started your argument with "Toyotaro fucks your wife". I'm not going to take you seriously after that. This isn't /a/ or wherever you supposedly hear "Toyocuck" all the time. That type of behavior isn't welcome here, and you shouldn't expect users to take the time to engage with you when you start like that.

1. None of the links you posted in anyway justify the manga's writing.

I was addressing your comment questioning the validity of my claim that Kale was designed with foreigners in mind. I made no attempt to address your other points.

2. Nowhere was it ever stated in either interview that Kale and Caulfila where created to appeal to the West. And the whole "Broly is mainly/only popular in the West" myth has been debunked multiple times already (seriously, he was already given 3 movies long before the series was marketed to the West, was given a 4th one that's exclusive to Universal Studios Japan, and is the most consistently marketed villain in Dragonball Heroes, a Japan only product.).

Just because you've decided something in your mind, that doesn't mean it's debunked.

I didn't say that Broly wasn't popular in Japan, but Toei specifically references him when they refer to the tastes of overseas fans. Even if it weren't true that Broly was more popular overseas, Toei thinks he is, and has made decisions accordingly.

And "overseas" includes other areas outside Japan, such as the rest of (South) East Asia, Latin America, some MidEast countries, etc. All of which have a bigger fanbase for DB and anime in general than the West.

1. I said the West because that is largely the demographic Toei is referring to.
2. Latin America is the West.
3. Whether they actually meant the West or not, they are emphasizing the importance of Broly because of some foreign market. Designing Kale around a specific market demographic is what I'm complaining about.
4. Do you have a source to back up your implication that Dragon Ball makes more money in those other areas combined than North America/South America/Europe/Australia combined? I'm having trouble finding up-to-date statistics for anime and manga, but it certainly isn't the case for video games or films. I've provided you with several sources already, so let's see one from you that isn't TotallyNotMark.

1. If Toei thinks Broly is more popular overseas, then why does many (if not most) of his merchandise never gets officially released outside of Japan? Explain that.
2. Toei wasn't even referring particularly to the West in that interview (that's just you making a baseless assumption). Like many Western fans, you are highly overrating the West's influence on the direction of the franchise. And they never brought up overseas fans in the interview about Kale and Caulifla either (that's just you projecting again).
3. Latin America is generally not considered a part of "The West". The Western World generally refers to North America, Europe and Australia.
4. Your film example falls flat, since it fails to take into account that in most 3rd world countries, films are sold at much lower prices thus bringing in less revenue. So it reveals little about popularity in these regions.

[Saiga]

Jokes on you I don't HAVE a wife

Or... anyone...

More srsly I don't necessarily agree that the creator is always the best when dealing with their franchise but 9 out of 10 times it isn't even close.

It happens time and time again, when an adaptation is done by someone who doesn't get the source material or who clearly has different priorities to the original creator the difference is really noticeable. It just isn't the same story.

[Shineman]

I can never keep up the discussions in this thread; however, it does provide some amusing entertainment value seeing an interesting discussion devolves into a “you’re wrong”/“no, YOU’RE WRONG” shouting contest.

I don't even know where to start.

You can start by not responding to these kind of posts in question, report it and move on; let the moderators handle the case if you deem it offensive, vulgar, and/or does not contribute to the overall nature of this discussion.

It always the same, few problematic members (on both sides on the isle) unable to have a noteworthy discussion or friendly debate without hostile language, people treating it as if they’re about to go to war with the enemy, nasty thoughts and/or gross generalizations on a group on another website and pointless phrases (such as basic [insert word here]). I think Lord Beerus said it best and hopefully, those few members might be able to better themselves in the future (you guys know who you are):

This is just a friendly debate. Don't treat this like you're taking part in the Tournament of Power.

===================================================

Anyways, let's get some friendly discussion rollin' here.

To address point #1, read the following. The rest can be inferred by reading between the lines:
This.
And this.

Hi, if you don't mind me cutting in this discussion. :p

While those are interesting interviews, I failed to see an concrete connection that Caulifla and Kale's existence is align with the interest of oversea fans. Regardless of how their character is portrayed in two different medium; the creative process of those two do not seems to implied what you're bringing onto the table. The closest thing I've seen that refers to Western fans is that they like strong folks and "oh yeah, you know Broly is super duper popular over there, huh? (and I sworn I remember that Toriyama and the staff had repeatedly gone on record on the popularity of Broly, but used in a way to referred to all fans, even citing an Heroes Event") and that's about it.

Is there anything else that suggest what you're getting at? Not saying it in a bad way; just curious to see more extensive interview of their thinking and whatnot, since that's really interesting

[Marlowe89]

While those are interesting interviews, I failed to see an concrete connection that Caulifla and Kale's existence is align with the interest of oversea fans.

Dragon Ball Room oversees the continuation of the franchise. In that first interview, its section chief specifically mentions that Broly is more popular overseas than in Japan.

In the second interview, Toei confirms that Kale's creation was based on Broly's popularity.

I don't know what you consider a concrete connection, but it's not a stretch to connect those dots. If Kale isn't directly influenced by the sensibilities of foreign audiences, she's at least "aligned" with them by Room's standards.

[TKA]

Jokes on you I don't HAVE a wife

Or... anyone...

More srsly I don't necessarily agree that the creator is always the best when dealing with their franchise but 9 out of 10 times it isn't even close.

It happens time and time again, when an adaptation is done by someone who doesn't get the source material or who clearly has different priorities to the original creator the difference is really noticeable. It just isn't the same story.

Well I'd venture to say it's 10/10 the case that at the very least, nobody can come at a series in the same way its original creator can. They, and only they, know what was going on in their heads when they first conceptualized the series, so really only they can truly get to the heart of what made the series great. Even if what they add to the series sucks, only they could've added that particular thing.

[Kinokima]

While those are interesting interviews, I failed to see an concrete connection that Caulifla and Kale's existence is align with the interest of oversea fans.

Dragon Ball Room oversees the continuation of the franchise. In that first interview, its section chief specifically mentions that Broly is more popular overseas than in Japan.

In the second interview, Toei confirms that Kale's creation was based on Broly's popularity.

I don't know what you consider a concrete connection, but it's not a stretch to connect those dots. If Kale isn't directly influenced by the sensibilities of foreign audiences, she's at least "aligned" with them by Room's standards.

Broly is popular in both the West & Japan. There were 3 Broly films before the franchise even made its mark overseas

And as I mentioned in another thread Broly merchandise sells quickly and for a lot of money in Japan

If Broly is “more popular” in the West it’s neglible!

[Rakurai]

Broly is popular in both the West & Japan. There were 3 Broly films before the franchise even made its mark overseas

And as I mentioned in another thread Broly merchandise sells quickly and for a lot of money in Japan

If Broly is “more popular” in the West it’s neglible!

Agree. Even without western influence Broly would still be largely popular in the franchise. As an example, there was a Japanese poll of favorite characters circulating at one point and Broly consistently ranked among the Top 3.