"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[The Undying]

I don't agree that sacrificing himself for his family is less selfish than atoning for a group of people he'd brutalized in the past, people he has no connection to whatsoever.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. Just thought some clarification on the idea of atonement was somewhat necessary here.

I'm sure a lot of people "atone" to make themselves feel better, but not always. Vegeta likely doesn't give the concept any thought, but that's exactly why his atonement throughout the series is so damn well-executed. He just does it because he cares, despite the cocky exterior.

[DiscountDabi]

Toyo spent months on Vegeta's training only to have the application of his new technique result in Moro just becoming stronger than ever and one-shotting Vegeta in less than a single issue.

He's accomplished less than nothing.

If he then, later, gets up, and somehow he can now use his new technique again to effectively oneshot Moro back, then Moro getting stronger and "raising the stakes" will have just been masturbatory filler.

Let me ask you something. Gohan Fights Cell. Cell Comes back in his Super Perfect Form and breaks his arm. Lets pause here. If this happened currently in the manga you would say “Oh Look at this Gohan can’t have anything now. They built up to this and just have him lose” So then he does the Kamehameha struggle against Cell and he beats him. Based on your last sentence, that means that Super Perfect Cell was “mastubatory filler“

Is this accurate or would you like to enlighten me?

[Mad Swami]

Toyo spent months on Vegeta's training only to have the application of his new technique result in Moro just becoming stronger than ever and one-shotting Vegeta in less than a single issue.

He's accomplished less than nothing.

If he then, later, gets up, and somehow he can now use his new technique again to effectively oneshot Moro back, then Moro getting stronger and "raising the stakes" will have just been masturbatory filler.

Let me ask you something. Gohan Fights Cell. Cell Comes back in his Super Perfect Form and breaks his arm. Lets pause here. If this happened currently in the manga you would say “Oh Look at this Gohan can’t have anything now. They built up to this and just have him lose” So then he does the Kamehameha struggle against Cell and he beats him. Based on your last sentence, that means that Super Perfect Cell was “mastubatory filler“

Is this accurate or would you like to enlighten me?

This is a very interesting point that honestly has made me a little less sour on the development. However, I think with Cell it's a little different because in that one Gohan made a mistake that his return gave him the opportunity to rectify. Vegeta, on the other hand, didn't do really anything wrong. Like he didn't finish him off (Just like Frieza ) but it was a little different IMO. I will also say Cell's power-up was built up a little better I think but idk. Very good comparison however

[Dragon Wukong]

This is a very interesting point that honestly has made me a little less sour on the development. However, I think with Cell it's a little different because in that one Gohan made a mistake that his return gave him the opportunity to rectify. Vegeta, on the other hand, didn't do really anything wrong. Like he didn't finish him off (Just like Frieza ) but it was a little different IMO. I will also say Cell's power-up was built up a little better I think but idk. Very good comparison however

Cell's power-up isn't really built up actually. Unless you count prior examples of zenkai boosts as "building up", but they stopped being mentioned by the end of the Frieza arc. Plus the idea that he can regenerate because of something in his head contradicts Goku previously blowing his head off. Heck, you could say Moro's power-up is more properly foreshadowed, with Moro explicitly stating that he needs Seven-Three for later several chapters prior.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I predict that Vegeta will eventually wake up and since Moro is stronger he's gonna have trouble getting close to him. I imagine Vegeta will attempt to separate Moro from 7-3 because killing him will be impossible but it will backfire to give Moro leverage and for plot.

I feel like everyone is forgetting 7-3 is artificial and lacks a soul, Moro may have one but given 7-3 doesn't and he practically absorbed/fused with the android, there is a chance that it might not work. Vegeta will no doubt try the technique, but if 7-3 being artificial is a factor in him not being able to be seperated from Moro, there is a chance it might backfire and another way to defeat Moro will be necessary.

I feel like its going to be revealed that Vegeta's technique would work on people like Kefla, Gogeta, Vegito, that triple fusion from earlier and such. Fusions of different souls who aren't artificial.

I don't think it would work on Zamasu because their souls are the same and their basically the same person.

[Dragon Wukong]

I feel like everyone is forgetting 7-3 is artificial and lacks a soul.

This has never been stated. Heck, it's never even really suggested Seven-Three is entirely artificial. He might be (and based on his power-set, in fact, most likely is) bio-engineered or enhanced like 17/18/Cell.

I don't think it would work on Zamasu because their souls are the same and their basically the same person.

The question isn't whether or not he could separate them but if they'd regenerate into a new Fused Zamasu afterward. There's no reason to think he couldn't do what the potara's time limit itself managed to do.

[Mad Swami]

This is a very interesting point that honestly has made me a little less sour on the development. However, I think with Cell it's a little different because in that one Gohan made a mistake that his return gave him the opportunity to rectify. Vegeta, on the other hand, didn't do really anything wrong. Like he didn't finish him off (Just like Frieza ) but it was a little different IMO. I will also say Cell's power-up was built up a little better I think but idk. Very good comparison however

Cell's power-up isn't really built up actually. Unless you count prior examples of zenkai boosts as "building up", but they stopped being mentioned by the end of the Frieza arc. Plus the idea that he can regenerate because of something in his head contradicts Goku previously blowing his head off. Heck, you could say Moro's power-up is more properly foreshadowed, with Moro explicitly stating that he needs Seven-Three for later several chapters prior.

I don't know I personally felt that Cell's power boost was built up because of the Goku warp Kamehameha. Goku blasted his head away, but he regenerated. I mean I guess it's weird because of the location, but like the fact that after he was seemingly destroyed and able to come back was some sort of evidence. However, my point still stands where I think Cell's powerful return was more plot-oriented then say Moro's which felt a tad cheaper IMO I still firmly believe it depends on what happens next but as of now it was a little weak for me.

[DiscountDabi]

This is a very interesting point that honestly has made me a little less sour on the development. However, I think with Cell it's a little different because in that one Gohan made a mistake that his return gave him the opportunity to rectify. Vegeta, on the other hand, didn't do really anything wrong. Like he didn't finish him off (Just like Frieza ) but it was a little different IMO. I will also say Cell's power-up was built up a little better I think but idk. Very good comparison however

Cell's power-up isn't really built up actually. Unless you count prior examples of zenkai boosts as "building up", but they stopped being mentioned by the end of the Frieza arc. Plus the idea that he can regenerate because of something in his head contradicts Goku previously blowing his head off. Heck, you could say Moro's power-up is more properly foreshadowed, with Moro explicitly stating that he needs Seven-Three for later several chapters prior.

I don't know I personally felt that Cell's power boost was built up because of the Goku warp Kamehameha. Goku blasted his head away, but he regenerated. I mean I guess it's weird because of the location, but like the fact that after he was seemingly destroyed and able to come back was some sort of evidence. However, my point still stands where I think Cell's powerful return was more plot-oriented then say Moro's which felt a tad cheaper IMO I still firmly believe it depends on what happens next but as of now it was a little weak for me.

I agree that we should be waiting for these things to come to an end before we make such large judgements. I’m all for criticizing the chapter when it comes out and taking issue with things, but people are saying things like calling Toyotarou incompetent and a terrible writer when the story line isn’t even finished.

And As I said in an earlier post, I know how these things work. People complain about things and when they get explained they don’t comment on how it was explained they basically ignore it and act as if they never criticized it in the first place. Again I’m not against criticizing something but when people are calling the writer incompetent I think you should give credit where credit is due.

[MCDaveG]

Adter seeing how Vegeta progressed trough the series and seeing him now, in Super and recently in the manga, I have a really strong sympathy for him...
As I am rewatching Dragon Ball and am in Freeza arc right now, it is like he is completely different person and is kinda hard to return back to the original Vegeta, selfish powermongering asshole... and I have to get used to it as he is basically like this until the fight versus Goku in Buu arc. Funny thing is, I was fan of Vegeta's as a kid, because he was cool and badass. Now to me, he is simmilar to Goku a lot.

[Miracles]

Vegeta sacrificed himself selfishly for those he loved [Trunks, Bulma].

All atonement is effectively selfish because it's done to make yourself feel better. It doesn't change the fact this was the peak of Vegeta's growth as a character. Piccolo says it himself in the scene. That it's the first time Vegeta is fighting for someone other than himself. Fighing for others, fighting for his family, had never been something he'd ever considered before. Not until this moment when he finally acknowledges his own humanity.

Vegeta fighting for Namekians now would not be a regression but continuing his developments from Buu saga. BTW, you are wrong about atonement being solely selfish. It's dual sided. Vegeta this arc wanted to know if the Namekians held a grudge against him. He wanted a reconciliation.

Against Moro, Vegeta himself atoned for Namek and the entire universe. Which accounts for his cosmos tyranny. Along, with Condemning himself and his actions, which was built off of the repentance he showed earlier in the arc to the Namekians.
And why is the rest of the universe being thrown in HERE as part of his atonement instead of his actual sacrifice against Buu, whom we know has been responsible for destroying countless worlds and would continue to do so under Babidi's command, or even just on his own?

This is the point that's being missed. The fact there is no reason why he should feel a reason to atone for the Namekians and somehow everyone else he ever hurt just because of this incident with Moro. There isn't a reason for it and no narrative reason why he wouldn't continue seeking atonement for all the other worlds and people he harmed. They're not getting munched on by Moro. They're either dead or part of Freeza's empire.

There is no reason why this is where he atones when it's nowhere near as emotional or as meaningful as his fight against Buu. It doesn't even come close and it doesn't resonate emotionally with the audience. It's just fabricated and forced.

It would be hypocritical of Vegeta to save Namek, which he once assaulted without letting them know his intentions. He isn't doing it for selfish reasons. Vegeta himself actually freed all the souls Moro had from the universe. There was no indirect avenue in doing so. He did that himself. With his own power. With Buu saga, his sacrifice didn't save anyone. He helped Kakarot through the earth take out kid buu.

This shows Vegeta made a complete turnaround. He was straight garbage in Namek, Android, Cell and even all of Buu. He fought for his pride and surpassing Kakarot. Until he admits all of this in the end of Buu. This is where his journey begins towards the path. Buu is nothing more than a build up to this point. What Vegeta did back then was a start, this current act just completes him.

This arc doesn't complete him at all. It reset his character so he could do the same atonement shtick all over again, only have it mean even less to the audience with even less of an impact. It is a lazy contrivance.

I don't see what is wrong with a reborn character, who want to right wrongs with any people he formerly molested along the way.
Nothing wrong with quelling those feelings of enmity. Just a great way to show the development scheme is working for Vegeta.

The narrative behind Vegeta's visit to Yardrat was for a specific technique to overcome Moro's absorption. That plot point was fulfilled. Vegeta can't help that Moro planned ahead with 7-3. Escalating the story's power level even higher. Hence why Vegeta gets knocked back into base. I don't see any problems with Toyotaro's writing on this point.
Again, it's a contrivance. Vegeta had no way of knowing of the Yardratians would have such a technique. It's the definition of a forced separation from the group. This is something I've already explained before. They already had all of this training before. With Whis. Whis taught them to control and hold all their energy inside their bodies, to stop it from leaking out. It was the only way in which they could move in that godly dimension they were sent to with his staff.

This lesson would easily have been the point of the development of a technique to stop Moro from draining them. By controlling their own energy they could keep it from being pulled from them by Moro. Thus eliminating Moro's advantage. Whis had even already told Vegeta that he could improve immensely by just relaxing himself more. Because him being tense all the time and overthinking his strategies in a fight causes him to waste too much energy.

These are details that go completely ignored by Toyotaro who just has the same ideas imparted to Vegeta on Yardrat, even though he's already been taught these things by Whis.

You forgot Whis can't teach Vegeta a technique that can counter Moro's. The plot already established Yardrat as a race with a plethora of techniques. So Vegeta going there makes the most logical narrative sense. Goku stuck with Whis teachings and got planted.

Now if Vegeta's fight is unsatisfying to you, fine. However, I'm satiated. Vegeta did what he was suppose to do. Doesn't mean he can't do more either. We'll have to see.

His fight isn't just unsatisfying. It's pointless. It holds no weight. They bullshitted a new power for Moro, effectively just turning him into Majin Buu by 'absorbing' people to gain power boosts and abilities. Something that just opens up a whole host of plotholes. Since if he could always do such a thing, why didn't he use this ability against Daikaio/Buu when DaiBuu could negate his energy draining and resist his magic? That would've restored him significantly and made him nigh-unstoppable right then and there.

Moro obviously wasn't strong enough to get close and actually eat Buu who was more powerful than him. After getting his hidden power released by having dai Kai's memories.

This whole arc has been overly dragged out and we can pretty much say it's being done so intentionally until Toei/Shueisha is ready to make an announcement about the next DBS movie. They need to keep fan interest going until they have something solid to show. Considering the last episode of the Anime aired in March of 2018 with the Broly movie airing in Japan that Dec and the rest of the world getting in 4-6weeks later, then we've been Dragonball Less for almost a year and a half. Nothing but the Heroes episodes (which are boring) and the Manga, which is less than interesting.

The Kakarot game seemed to do ok, but people got quickly bored of it. Especially with how they just shoved BoG and other DBS material in there. So here we are, waiting for a new continuation of the anime and/or the next movie, and all we really have is Toyotaro's manga. And having it drag itself through a rancid swamp in the hopes of keeping the fans placated until Shueisha can prep a trailer to appease the fans.

I agree. This arc has been dragged out. It has been slow paced. It does not have Toriyama's feel to it at all. I am a firm believer that Toyotaro is writing this story not Toriyama. I know Toyotaro said he and Toriyama are "teaming up" on this story. However, that can mean many things, Toriyama just could be checking minor things. Even tho we know he had some plot work done on a characters background, This is what made me believe the Galactic Patrol arc is Toyotaro's work. I am getting praise as" I make it." He specified he was the one producing it.

This is why things like Vegeta saying he is going to Hell feels so random and forced. Toriyama's writing is more simple and says those kinds of things when the situation really calls for it. All in all I can see where both sides are coming from. Despite Toyotaro's execution his view of Toriyama's DB is in the ballpark.

[God]

I wonder how Toei will ruin this arc if they ever get around to adapting it

[Koitsukai]

Let's say Vegeta wakes up(it wouldn't surprise me if a senzu appears or if he just recovers on his own) and he teams up with Omen Goku. Wouldn't those two actually give Moro73 a good fight? they proved to be a great team vs Jiren even in their base, now they'd be in their strongest forms. I mean they both fought him individually and were pretty close to him, and they would've definitely won if they fought him together, but Moro73 might be enough to keep us entertained for 45 pages. Surely, it wouldn't work because there are so many loose ends, but at least to keep Earth safe for a chapter?

Maybe we'll get to see them fighting together next chapter? Or the following? or do you guys think that ship has already sailed and reached its destination back at the ToP, and we won't see that kind of teaming up again?

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Let's say Vegeta wakes up(it wouldn't surprise me if a senzu appears or if he just recovers on his own) and he teams up with Omen Goku. Wouldn't those two actually give Moro73 a good fight? they proved to be a great team vs Jiren even in their base, now they'd be in their strongest forms. I mean they both fought him individually and were pretty close to him, and they would've definitely won if they fought him together, but Moro73 might be enough to keep us entertained for 45 pages. Surely, it wouldn't work because there are so many loose ends, but at least to keep Earth safe for a chapter?

Maybe we'll get to see them fighting together next chapter? Or the following? or do you guys think that ship has already sailed and reached its destination back at the ToP, and we won't see that kind of teaming up again?

Give him a decent fight? Maybe. But I don't see how they'll be able to do anything until Vegeta finds a way to defuse him. Vegeta got one shotted so obviously its going to be a pain to fight him. The other Z fighters are better off sticking to the sidelines, it'll be the end for them if they intervene physically. Moro is way too strong for them, he has infinite stamina and on the off-chance separating them doesn't work, due to 7-3 lacking a soul, defeating Moro is going to be a pain.

Team effort is the only way I see it, and if they can't kill Moro, Beerus may decide to stretch his legs if he manages to get to Earth in that time frame. I can't see Merus dying being needed as Beerus should be able to handle him, unless Moro somehow manages to overpower or trick Beerus to become stronger in some BS way then I see no need for any the angels to die or get involved.

Also, Whis wouldn't allow Merus to enter the battle field. The Grand Priest will be giving Whis a side eye if Merus were to die on his watch. He legit promised to keep Merus alive, if Merus dies the Grand Priest isn't going to be happy.

[head_cha_la]

I wonder how Toei will ruin this arc if they ever get around to adapting it

The story will be different, the fights will be different, the techniques will be different and maybe Toei will put Trunks and Goten in their plans!

[Matches Malone]

Let's say Vegeta wakes up(it wouldn't surprise me if a senzu appears or if he just recovers on his own) and he teams up with Omen Goku. Wouldn't those two actually give Moro73 a good fight?

The difference is that even Jiren didn't knock Vegeta out with one blow. I think the idea of fighting this guy in a normal fight is out of the question, their only hope is for Vegeta to defuse him somehow.

[MCDaveG]

It is funny, that I have completely forgot about Senzu Beans... but from what I remember vaguely, Goku went for them in Zamasu arc?
Unless they fetch Dende or unlock some miraculous function to heal themselves trough Ki, I wonder what will happen.
Maybe Goku unlocks UI from total exhaustion?

But I love the DB tropes and I would love some...

Spoiler:

[DiscountDabi]

It is funny, that I have completely forgot about Senzu Beans... but from what I remember vaguely, Goku went for them in Zamasu arc?
Unless they fetch Dende or unlock some miraculous function to heal themselves trough Ki, I wonder what will happen.
Maybe Goku unlocks UI from total exhaustion?

But I love the DB tropes and I would love some...

Spoiler:

I still think that if Goku or Vegeta are drained of energy during this fight and its a big deciding factor, its a massive plot hole because when Vegeta removed Moro’s Energy, some of that energy was theirs so they should have gotten it back.

[MCDaveG]

It is funny, that I have completely forgot about Senzu Beans... but from what I remember vaguely, Goku went for them in Zamasu arc?
Unless they fetch Dende or unlock some miraculous function to heal themselves trough Ki, I wonder what will happen.
Maybe Goku unlocks UI from total exhaustion?

But I love the DB tropes and I would love some...

Spoiler:

I still think that if Goku or Vegeta are drained of energy during this fight and its a big deciding factor, its a massive plot hole because when Vegeta removed Moro’s Energy, some of that energy was theirs so they should have gotten it back.

Yeah, if Vegeta freed energy stolen from others and it revived Namekians, Goku and Vegeta should get theirs back, as Moro sucked them dry before.

[God]

It is funny, that I have completely forgot about Senzu Beans... but from what I remember vaguely, Goku went for them in Zamasu arc?
Unless they fetch Dende or unlock some miraculous function to heal themselves trough Ki, I wonder what will happen.
Maybe Goku unlocks UI from total exhaustion?

But I love the DB tropes and I would love some...

Spoiler:

I still think that if Goku or Vegeta are drained of energy during this fight and its a big deciding factor, its a massive plot hole because when Vegeta removed Moro’s Energy, some of that energy was theirs so they should have gotten it back.

Vegeta and Goku aren't affected by the energy drain anymore. It made them weaker before, but that was months ago and they're complete rejuvenated now, so energy going back to them wouldn't really make sense. Meanwhile some of the Namekians literally died because of it. Also it could be assumed that Vegeta's forced spirit fission ability only allows him to return the energy from those who actually died as a result of Moro's energy drain (with Vegeta freeing the 'spirits' Moro absorbed), and Goku/Vegeta clearly didn't die by Moro's drain.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Let's say Vegeta wakes up(it wouldn't surprise me if a senzu appears or if he just recovers on his own) and he teams up with Omen Goku. Wouldn't those two actually give Moro73 a good fight?

The difference is that even Jiren didn't knock Vegeta out with one blow. I think the idea of fighting this guy in a normal fight is out of the question, their only hope is for Vegeta to defuse him somehow.

Fighting Moro while he's like this would basically be suicide. Considering Vegeta got knocked unconscious in one hit I don't see how Goku and the others are going to stack up against that. If defusing doesn't work, because they may just use the fact 7-3 being an android means he doesn't have a soul, they might pull that to prevent Vegeta from being able to separate him. If that is the case, Beerus after a bit of prodding will from Merus and Whis, will probably have to step in if the Z fighters don't find any other ways to fight him in that time period.