Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SSR Goku Black also caught SSB Vegeta's fist after the latter had trained himself up and was utterly demolishing him.

Did he suddenly increase his power?

No, no he did not. Not to mention that blocking and reading movements are specifically noted in-universe as important parts to a fight; the former is for reducing damage, and the latter is for avoiding/initiating damage.

The ONLY evidence for Dyspo having increased his strength is his "energy emanating from his body", which is just as easily simply an energy he emits when he initiates his Super Maximum Light Speed Mode. Throughout the ENTIRE fight, Dyspo has only EVER been specifically noted in-universe by himself and other characters to have increased his speed; his speed is his whole gimmick. Him simply upping that to the extreme is the logical conclusion to come to, and very likely one that the writers would've had in mind from a Doylist POV.

It's a rule in Dragonball when a character powers up OVERALL Ki increases. Cause Ki backs ALL attributes. This is exactly what Dyspo did when energy was emanating from his body. Hence why Golden Freeza's attack was blocked point blank. Dyspo didn't counter by attacking Freeza before his punch, nor did he dodge it but outright SLAPPED his attack away with strength. Something base Dyspo couldn't do before.

Also the Goku Black example wasn't a good one cause Black was on the level of power of Vegeta's even tho he was stronger just like Golden Freeza and Dyspo were around the same level.

It's also a fact that Dyspo has only ever increased his speed throughout his fights in the whole tournament, meaning that he set a precedent for ONLY his speed being what he focuses power into to increase. Also, claiming that he slapped the attack away with strength is just as valid, if not less so, an interpretation as him having enough of Freeza's sh*t and slapping away his fist. Your argument isn't the only one that can be backed up by that logic. [X] thing doesn't always have [Y] meaning; it's not some mathematical equation.

You have limited evidence based subjective interpretation compared to me and other people's factual statements and established precedence for the character himself.

[Miracles]

It's also a fact that Dyspo has only ever increased his speed throughout his fights in the whole tournament, meaning that he set a precedent for ONLY his speed being what he focuses power into to increase. Also, claiming that he slapped the attack away with strength is just as valid, if not less so, an interpretation as him having enough of Freeza's sh*t and slapping away his fist. Your argument isn't the only one that can be backed up by that logic. [X] thing doesn't always have [Y] meaning; it's not some mathematical equation.

You have limited evidence based subjective interpretation compared to me and other people's factual statements and established precedence for the character himself.

I have clear visual proof. Dyspo swatting away Golden Freeza's punch when he couldn't handle his physical strength before SHOWS Dyspo's overall power increased.
It had nothing to do with Dyspo's attitude being the reason why he was able to block it. What?

You guys are interpreting everything based on singular statements. We know Jiren is fast but no one in the crowd mentions it. It states how strong he always is. That doesn't mean he doesn't have speed.
It's the same with Dyspo. Unless you can show me the basic Dragonball rule being broken that power ups don't increase overall power?

[TheSaiyanGod]

OR........ His increased speed allowed him to more easily counter True Golden Freeza's movements and attacks, thus proving that his speed is the reason he could do this now and not before. Your line of logic goes both ways.

Dyspo was faster, and probably his reaction speed also increased, and so he was able to react to the attacks of Freeza.
But no one said he was stronger.

And the issue here is not the version of Goku that Vegeta was referring to when he said that Jiren used more power against Goku.

Vegeta just noticed that Jiren was slower when he confronted him alone.
When Goku and Vegeta were fighting together, this was not said in any moment. And yet, Vegeta managed to deflect Jiren's blows.

As I said, Jiren probably slowed down after taking Vegeta's first punch because he was scared. Just look at his face when Vegeta is swapping blows with him alone

When Vegeta noticed this, Jiren quickly recovered and dominated Vegeta.

No, Jiren was sandbagging the whole time cause it's the only reason why he hasn't swatted a Goku away who hasn't recovered yet. Vegeta in no way was handling a Jiren going hard ever.
Dyspo knocking away an attack with physical might is a strength feat. Dyspo didn't dodge it with speed. He didn't use anything but strength as he blocked the attack in one spot.

When Vegeta confronted Jiren alone, Jiren was actually using less power than in the fight against Goku.
I never said that in this part of the fight, Jiren was serious

But during the fight against Goku and Vegeta together, there is no quote that proves that Jiren was using less power, Vegeta just notices that later. The point is that Vegeta was able to predict the movements of a Jiren that still was not using less power than before, and so Jiren was surprised with the punch

As I said, Dyspo got faster, so his reaction speed probably increased as well. That's why he managed to deflect Frieza's attack.
Before, Freeza was faster and that was said. After activating the super speed light mode, Dyspo was faster than Freeza and that gave him the advantage.

His first punch in the super speed light mode at Freeza did not even throw the emperor away, it only damaged him, and that was because Dyspo was faster

[Miracles]

When Vegeta confronted Jiren alone, Jiren was actually using less power than in the fight against Goku.
I never said that in this part of the fight, Jiren was serious

But during the fight against Goku and Vegeta together, there is no quote that proves that Jiren was using less power, Vegeta just notices that later. The point is that Vegeta was able to predict the movements of a Jiren that still was not using less power than before, and so Jiren was surprised with the punch

As I said, Dyspo got faster, so his reaction speed probably increased as well. That's why he managed to deflect Frieza's attack.
Before, Freeza was faster and that was said. After activating the super speed light mode, Dyspo was faster than Freeza and that gave him the advantage.

His first punch in the super speed light mode at Freeza did not even throw the emperor away, it only damaged him, and that was because Dyspo was faster

Damage comes from the STRENGTH of blows.
That's why even tho UI Goku is fast HE still needs overall POWER to compete/damage his opponent.
Same with Dyspo as he was actually hurting Golden Freeza cause his overall power increased.

Jiren was sandbagging on both Goku and Vegeta cause the proof shows Goku was smiling while fighting Jiren and has not recovered his stamina.
Vegeta is weaker than Goku cause he did worse against a serious Jiren. Quickly combo'd and almost got ringed out by the "it's over" finishing move when Goku brushed that off in the special.

[TheSaiyanGod]

When Vegeta confronted Jiren alone, Jiren was actually using less power than in the fight against Goku.
I never said that in this part of the fight, Jiren was serious

But during the fight against Goku and Vegeta together, there is no quote that proves that Jiren was using less power, Vegeta just notices that later. The point is that Vegeta was able to predict the movements of a Jiren that still was not using less power than before, and so Jiren was surprised with the punch

As I said, Dyspo got faster, so his reaction speed probably increased as well. That's why he managed to deflect Frieza's attack.
Before, Freeza was faster and that was said. After activating the super speed light mode, Dyspo was faster than Freeza and that gave him the advantage.

His first punch in the super speed light mode at Freeza did not even throw the emperor away, it only damaged him, and that was because Dyspo was faster

Damage comes from the STRENGTH of blows.
That's why even tho UI Goku is fast HE still needs overall POWER to compete/damage his opponent.
Same with Dyspo as he was actually hurting Golden Freeza cause his overall power increased.

Jiren was sandbagging on both Goku and Vegeta cause the proof shows Goku was smiling while fighting Jiren and has not recovered his stamina.
Vegeta is weaker than Goku cause he did worse against a serious Jiren. Quickly combo'd and almost got ringed out by the "it's over" finishing move when Goku brushed that off in the special.

What's the point of using UI Goku in this comparison?

He is able to deflect enemy blows without having to think, it is as if his body acted alone and this is something that gives an immense advantage in combat. To cause damage or exchange blows with the enemy, obviously he must have the power to do so.

But in the case of Dyspo he was basically cornering Freeza because of his speed and so almost eliminated him. Not because he was strong, but because he was fast and Freeza was unable to keep up with the enemy.
It was clearly said that Dyspo got even faster, nothing was quoted about his power having increased.

It does not make sense to use the small change of punches between Goku and Jiren at the beginning of EP 122 as a parameter. That was clearly a warm-up and both Goku and Jiren were just talking.
After that, Jiren dominated SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta together easily. At this point, there is also no quote that reinforces the fact that Jiren was using less power than before. This only happened in the fight against Vegeta alone.

Vegeta fought Jiren worse than Goku? He managed to do something that Hitto needed a whole fight to do (and that Goku could not even watch Jiren face Vegeta).
Jiren clearly was annoyed with Vegeta's teasing on EP 122 and so he tried to finish it quickly.
But, Vegeta was able to STOP the attack of Jiren before reaching the edge of the arena, while Goku needed to use the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena and was almost eliminated. There's no sense in using this to say that Vegeta is weaker.

[Miracles]

What's the point of using UI Goku in this comparison?

He is able to deflect enemy blows without having to think, it is as if his body acted alone and this is something that gives an immense advantage in combat. To cause damage or exchange blows with the enemy, obviously he must have the power to do so.

But in the case of Dyspo he was basically cornering Freeza because of his speed and so almost eliminated him. Not because he was strong, but because he was fast and Freeza was unable to keep up with the enemy.
It was clearly said that Dyspo got even faster, nothing was quoted about his power having increased.

It does not make sense to use the small change of punches between Goku and Jiren at the beginning of EP 122 as a parameter. That was clearly a warm-up and both Goku and Jiren were just talking.
After that, Jiren dominated SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta together easily. At this point, there is also no quote that reinforces the fact that Jiren was using less power than before. This only happened in the fight against Vegeta alone.

Vegeta fought Jiren worse than Goku? He managed to do something that Hitto needed a whole fight to do (and that Goku could not even watch Jiren face Vegeta).
Jiren clearly was annoyed with Vegeta's teasing on EP 122 and so he tried to finish it quickly.
But, Vegeta was able to STOP the attack of Jiren before reaching the edge of the arena, while Goku needed to use the Kaioken to hold onto the edge of the arena and was almost eliminated. There's no sense in using this to say that Vegeta is weaker.

Yes it is cause Goku wasn't damaged from the "it's over" finishing move attack unlike Vegeta who struggled with it and was grasping for air. Big difference in power.
UI Goku was brought up cause despite his specific skill set, STILL needs power to compete. It's the same with Dyspo, as it was shown when he punched Golden Freeza in the face.
This is a rule in Dragonball, overall ki increases overall power and you need ALL to compete on the level of your opponent.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

So my line of thinking is that in the manga Beerus and Champa were implied to be about to wipe out the universe with a single shot which is why Whis and Vados knocked them out.

When Kefla became a Super Saiyan 2 it was only at that point that she felt she had enough power to wipe out a universe with one shot. Which would naturally mean she didn't have that power beforehand. Therefore Ultra Instinct Goku, Super Saiyan Kefla and everyone else below that level would not be as strong as a God of Destruction.

Which makes me think that God of Destruction Toppo > Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 and Super Saiyan Kefla.

When Kefla said she felt she could destroy the universe with a blow, it seemed a lot more because of her excitement with her new power than a real possibility (later, she says she had bubbling power and emphasizes how happy she is to be Saiyan , which reinforces that she was very excited). Basically, it was just hyperbole

I did some digging for some context of Kefla vs Goku and I've came to a conclusion that Kefla may not be strong as we thought or Spirit bomb level. I mean I see people wank her above GOD Toppo level(what we see in episode 125) and UI Goku in other forums.

First of all here are the actual Japanese translations of the scene in episode 116, which I've been given from someone whom speaks Japanese:

Whis: -「今度の発動の引き金はおそらくケフラさん」
Kondo no hatsudou no hikigane wa osoraku kefura-san
The trigger this time appears to have been Kefla-san
Beerus: -「奴の巨大な気が…」
Yatsu no kyoudai na ki ga...
Her gigantic Ki...

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」
Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivaled his power when he bathed in the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.

Important part being "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気", in detail and somewhat transliterally:
"元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" means "The power of when [Goku] bathed in the Genkidama"
"匹敵するほど" means "to be so much as to rival" (匹敵 means equaling/rivaling/matching)
"ケフラさんの気" means "Kefla-san's Ki"

So in other words, Whis isn't comparing Kelfa to the Genkidama, but to Goku when he bathed in the Genkidama. Most likely is that Whis is talking about Kelfa gigantic ki made Goku rival the low state he was to when he bathed in the Genkidama, especially when he was so fatigued he fell into the spirt bomb with his Ki being hard to sense and low under rubble to the point no one could sense it momentarily. It wouldn't make sense for kefla power to be comparable to the Goku low state but instead the effects as both broke his limit to the point he had no ki left. Regardless it makes more sense if you connect the rest of the context without disturbing the statement, as Whis continue to talk about Kefla ki being a stimulus that broke his shell which reinforces the fact he was comparing the effect(both pushed Goku into a low state) and role interpretation. Even the narrator confirms that it was the extreme overall battle that served to trigger the form not a single attack/kick that rivalled the Genkidama. But in the end Whis is presuming something so he's not 100% or factual, just like when he though Caulifa was just a brawler but takes it back afterwards. Besides translation with further context of the scene or more credible feats to back it up, it was obvious Whis was talking about Kelfa having the spirit bomb role rather than literal power.

In halfway of episode 115, when Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah", even while further saying and acknowledging that he didn't know Kefla power as SSJ would be so powerful at the same time and it was a happy miscalculation. So it can't be implied that Champa still underestimates her.

Later on fatigued Goku in kaioken/king kai fist was able to cause her arm to go numb when in just in regular kaioken/king kai fist(which is around x2 or close) as he says it without the added multiplier. When he later powers up more she was failing to react to him move and continues to overpower her initially to the point where she struggles to get up while damaged with the crowd worried even Champa whom is aware of her power. This was most likely x10 as powered up more as that's when his aura get significantly expands when powering from regular kaioken to x10 like as shown in the battle with Hit, but again you could argue he's just using a higher of his normal kaioken to x3-4. So to think her power skyrocketed without powering up in the same form would be absurd especially when going from being inferior to fatigue SSBKK to the Genkidama even with one kick. If we assume that Kefla at SSJ alone is genkidama level, in the same time it's like conceding that full power SSB or fatigue SSBKK(x10 if not less) would rival too.

It should be noted that Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of staimia/ki which explains Kelfa being able to knock him out of the form with a single kick when she got behind him while he was distracted with his last Kamehameha. Just like the Hit fight, his stamina began to got worse and would've did more damage to him if the fight prolong. As far dragon ball goes injuries do result to reduce Ki, like when Gohan got kicked in the head during the Ginyu force battle.

When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.

Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー…先ほどまでだったら孫を超えてるかもしれん！
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"

Even if you translate 先ほど in google translator It'll come up with "earlier" even though google translator isn't always reliable when it comes to interpreting different languages in English, the same kanji meaning is still close to the translation above. Regardless the only more recent previous level that happened was SSBKK that Goku used while fatigued and was already overpowering Kefla.

Very interesting. So on EP 116, when Piccolo says that Kefla overcame Goku's recent power, he was probably referring to the SSB KK used on EP 115?

And in fact, the context of Whis's talk about Kefla's power being comparable to that of Genkidama, he was actually referring to the fact that both forced Goku to activate the UI, and not exactly about its power being as large as that of a Genkidama, right?

Anyway, I never believed that the power of Kefla was as great as some people speak. EP 115 makes that clear.
Even in SSJ2, it would not make any sense for her to be superior to UI Goku or Hakaishins

Interesting that Kafla's SS1 was compared more to Goku's power when he fell into the Spirit Bomb, but the rest of it doesn't really change anything. Goku still could've used any level of Kaioken against her, he uses higher levels frequently without specifying the number. Piccolo still could've been referring to Ultra Instinct, since UI Goku had been transformed for a few Freeza minutes there, and SS1 Kafla had tried fighting him for a little bit. Perhaps most crucially, however, Piccolo still hopes that Goku's Saiyan nature will allow him to get even stronger in response to Kafla getting stronger in order for them to have a chance. It's kind of the whole theme of the fight: that Goku and the Saiyan girls are constantly pushing each other to new heights of power, with each one surpassing the other's last power-up. It makes no narrative sense for SS2 Kafla not to equal or surpass UI Goku at that point in the fight.

All this changes for me is that SS1 Kafla is closer to KKx20 than the Spirit Bomb.

[ZombieVito]

We do know how Super Saiyan Berseker/Legendary compares to the rest of the forms..

It's way weaker than Super Saiyan God.

weaker yes but not much
Kale was able to put up a decent fight against ssjg goku while her teammate was treated like absolute trash and deflect and energy ball from him though with difficulty
Shes in his tier on the lower end

Maybe but Goku was tired so I really wouldn't put her in the tier.

Goku was also toying with both of them. Just look at his expression while doing the finger beam.

[AvatarReiko]

Time for some speculation. How big is the power gap between fatigued SSG/SSJB Goku and healthy GoKU. I am just trying to place Kefla's various states in relation to to Full Power Goku

[SayianBeyondGod]

Kefla is stronger than 109-110 SSB Kaioken x20 Goku, but that’s about it. There really is a lot of wanking going on with her. So far, there have only been two characters in the tournament of power who have been stated to be at hakaishin level, and that is a suppressed jiren, and toppo in his god of destruction form. And in the next remaining weeks, vegeta will reach that level, and goku will perhaps surpass it along with jiren.

When was that shown? She was overpowered by a fatigue Goku in normal SSBKK to it's max if not x10 as I discussed prior. Either way being below a fatigue SSBKK x10 or below won't make her above SSBKK x20 Goku in SSJ2. We can also factor in the fact Vados implies that a fullpower SSB Goku would be troublesome if not too much for her to handle so logically she would be around regular SSBKK (x2 or x3) compared to a fullpower Goku.

Interesting that Kafla's SS1 was compared more to Goku's power when he fell into the Spirit Bomb, but the rest of it doesn't really change anything. Goku still could've used any level of Kaioken against her, he uses higher levels frequently without specifying the number. Piccolo still could've been referring to Ultra Instinct, since UI Goku had been transformed for a few Freeza minutes there, and SS1 Kafla had tried fighting him for a little bit. Perhaps most crucially, however, Piccolo still hopes that Goku's Saiyan nature will allow him to get even stronger in response to Kafla getting stronger in order for them to have a chance. It's kind of the whole theme of the fight: that Goku and the Saiyan girls are constantly pushing each other to new heights of power, with each one surpassing the other's last power-up. It makes no narrative sense for SS2 Kafla not to equal or surpass UI Goku at that point in the fight.

All this changes for me is that SS1 Kafla is closer to KKx20 than the Spirit Bomb.

Again as I discussed Goku starts up with normal Kaioken( doubling his power), we see in the battle with Hit when he says just kaioken it doubles his power. If you pay attention when he charges up from normal kaioken(x2-x4) his aura begins to expand when he finally reaches x10 but you could also argue he uses his max normal kaioken(jumping from x2 to x3 or x4). Logically it shouldn't be x20 as that's a massive gap from normal kaioken which is close to doubling his power. Not to mention Beerus implies using kaioken was bad on his fatigue state so it'll be absurd to think he capable of using close to his fullpower now. Goku going UI was in episode 110 which was 10 minutes ago assuming each episode was 2 minutes at the time so it makes sense for a "little time ago" to be more recent. It wouldn't make sense to say she surpassed Goku UI from episode 110 as his had more stamina and ki back then than currently which only had improved in polish moves. Assuming it was 110 UI Goku, Kefla should've surpassed his current stage. Goku only needed to power up a little which according to Gohan ignited her to power up more which was improved by Picoolo. He was fatigue to the point where after he did a direct shockwave punch to her which she mocked, he started panting hard and needed to finish the fight with a Kamekameka. But that's not to say his attacks didn't work as Kefla is just letting her ego get in the way and we clearly see her taking damage(damage marks, spitting, grunting in pain). It makes sense for her to only surpass SSBKK which already overpowered her more recently.

[Hugo Boss]

It's also a fact that Dyspo has only ever increased his speed throughout his fights in the whole tournament, meaning that he set a precedent for ONLY his speed being what he focuses power into to increase. Also, claiming that he slapped the attack away with strength is just as valid, if not less so, an interpretation as him having enough of Freeza's sh*t and slapping away his fist. Your argument isn't the only one that can be backed up by that logic. [X] thing doesn't always have [Y] meaning; it's not some mathematical equation.

You have limited evidence based subjective interpretation compared to me and other people's factual statements and established precedence for the character himself.

I have clear visual proof. Dyspo swatting away Golden Freeza's punch when he couldn't handle his physical strength before SHOWS Dyspo's overall power increased.
It had nothing to do with Dyspo's attitude being the reason why he was able to block it. What?

You guys are interpreting everything based on singular statements. We know Jiren is fast but no one in the crowd mentions it. It states how strong he always is. That doesn't mean he doesn't have speed.
It's the same with Dyspo. Unless you can show me the basic Dragonball rule being broken that power ups don't increase overall power?

Hit powers up and doesn’t increase his powerlevel. Also, I don’t see the need to abide to fanmade rules. We have a clear case of a character only increasing his speed and that alone seems enough to justify his performance. Once his movements are restricted he is no big deal to Gohan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The real crux of this whole debate is the idea that these so-called "hard rules" are something that the writing staff and animators constantly keep in mind when creating the various scenes in the anime. In all likelihood, the Doylist answer is that they simply don't because it's restrictive and unintuitive to the creation process.

Why bother with trying to fit things into a neat little mold that doesn't even have official guides or comments from the creators backing them up when you can make cool fight scenes that harken back to the days where martial arts skill and strategy was king?

With the Dyspo example, the writing of the overall narrative behind the character is all about how imposing his SPEED is. He's all about SPEED. He has almost nothing else to his character except SPEED. Writing in this series is usually quite basic and barebones; only certain general concepts and ideas are focused on. When we're told that SPEED is the reason Dyspo is doing so well, we should take it as what's being told to us, our fanmade "rules" be damned.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Kefla is stronger than 109-110 SSB Kaioken x20 Goku, but that’s about it. There really is a lot of wanking going on with her. So far, there have only been two characters in the tournament of power who have been stated to be at hakaishin level, and that is a suppressed jiren, and toppo in his god of destruction form. And in the next remaining weeks, vegeta will reach that level, and goku will perhaps surpass it along with jiren.

When was that shown? She was overpowered by a fatigue Goku in normal SSBKK to it's max if not x10 as I discussed prior. Either way being below a fatigue SSBKK x10 or below won't make her above SSBKK x20 Goku in SSJ2. We can also factor in the fact Vados implies that a fullpower SSB Goku would be troublesome if not too much for her to handle so logically she would be around regular SSBKK (x2 or x3) compared to a fullpower Goku.

Interesting that Kafla's SS1 was compared more to Goku's power when he fell into the Spirit Bomb, but the rest of it doesn't really change anything. Goku still could've used any level of Kaioken against her, he uses higher levels frequently without specifying the number. Piccolo still could've been referring to Ultra Instinct, since UI Goku had been transformed for a few Freeza minutes there, and SS1 Kafla had tried fighting him for a little bit. Perhaps most crucially, however, Piccolo still hopes that Goku's Saiyan nature will allow him to get even stronger in response to Kafla getting stronger in order for them to have a chance. It's kind of the whole theme of the fight: that Goku and the Saiyan girls are constantly pushing each other to new heights of power, with each one surpassing the other's last power-up. It makes no narrative sense for SS2 Kafla not to equal or surpass UI Goku at that point in the fight.

All this changes for me is that SS1 Kafla is closer to KKx20 than the Spirit Bomb.

Again as I discussed Goku starts up with normal Kaioken( doubling his power), we see in the battle with Hit when he says just kaioken it doubles his power. If you pay attention when he charges up from normal kaioken(x2-x4) his aura begins to expand when he finally reaches x10 but you could also argue he uses his max normal kaioken(jumping from x2 to x3 or x4). Logically it shouldn't be x20 as that's a massive gap from normal kaioken which is close to doubling his power. Not to mention Beerus implies using kaioken was bad on his fatigue state so it'll be absurd to think he capable of using close to his fullpower now. Goku going UI was in episode 110 which was 10 minutes ago assuming each episode was 2 minutes at the time so it makes sense for a "little time ago" to be more recent. It wouldn't make sense to say she surpassed Goku UI from episode 110 as his had more stamina and ki back then than currently which only had improved in polish moves. Assuming it was 110 UI Goku, Kefla should've surpassed his current stage. Goku only needed to power up a little which according to Gohan ignited her to power up more which was improved by Picoolo. He was fatigue to the point where after he did a direct shockwave punch to her which she mocked, he started panting hard and needed to finish the fight with a Kamekameka. But that's not to say his attacks didn't work as Kefla is just letting her ego get in the way and we clearly see her taking damage(damage marks, spitting, grunting in pain). It makes sense for her to only surpass SSBKK which already overpowered her more recently.

No, Goku used x20 during the whole first round with Jiren without mentioning the level and the aura wasn't super big, neither have anything to do with the level of Kaioken he's using. I wasn't referring to 110 UI as the level Kafla had surpassed, I was referring to 115 UI, something that had just happened. Also, again, whole theme of the fight.

Base Goku > SS2 Caulifla (because of skill)
SS2 Caulifla (improved) > Base Goku
SS2 Goku > SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale > SS2 Goku
SS3 Goku > SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale
SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale > SS2 Goku (though I think Goku using SS3 here would've worked better)
SSG Goku > SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale
Kafla > SSG Goku
SSB Goku > Kafla
SS1 Kafla > SSB Goku
SSB KKx20 Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS1 Kafla (full power) > SSB KKx20 Goku
UIO Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS2 Kafla > UIO Goku
UIO Goku (improved) > SS2 Kafla

[TheSaiyanGod]

Kefla is stronger than 109-110 SSB Kaioken x20 Goku, but that’s about it. There really is a lot of wanking going on with her. So far, there have only been two characters in the tournament of power who have been stated to be at hakaishin level, and that is a suppressed jiren, and toppo in his god of destruction form. And in the next remaining weeks, vegeta will reach that level, and goku will perhaps surpass it along with jiren.

When was that shown? She was overpowered by a fatigue Goku in normal SSBKK to it's max if not x10 as I discussed prior. Either way being below a fatigue SSBKK x10 or below won't make her above SSBKK x20 Goku in SSJ2. We can also factor in the fact Vados implies that a fullpower SSB Goku would be troublesome if not too much for her to handle so logically she would be around regular SSBKK (x2 or x3) compared to a fullpower Goku.

Interesting that Kafla's SS1 was compared more to Goku's power when he fell into the Spirit Bomb, but the rest of it doesn't really change anything. Goku still could've used any level of Kaioken against her, he uses higher levels frequently without specifying the number. Piccolo still could've been referring to Ultra Instinct, since UI Goku had been transformed for a few Freeza minutes there, and SS1 Kafla had tried fighting him for a little bit. Perhaps most crucially, however, Piccolo still hopes that Goku's Saiyan nature will allow him to get even stronger in response to Kafla getting stronger in order for them to have a chance. It's kind of the whole theme of the fight: that Goku and the Saiyan girls are constantly pushing each other to new heights of power, with each one surpassing the other's last power-up. It makes no narrative sense for SS2 Kafla not to equal or surpass UI Goku at that point in the fight.

All this changes for me is that SS1 Kafla is closer to KKx20 than the Spirit Bomb.

Again as I discussed Goku starts up with normal Kaioken( doubling his power), we see in the battle with Hit when he says just kaioken it doubles his power. If you pay attention when he charges up from normal kaioken(x2-x4) his aura begins to expand when he finally reaches x10 but you could also argue he uses his max normal kaioken(jumping from x2 to x3 or x4). Logically it shouldn't be x20 as that's a massive gap from normal kaioken which is close to doubling his power. Not to mention Beerus implies using kaioken was bad on his fatigue state so it'll be absurd to think he capable of using close to his fullpower now. Goku going UI was in episode 110 which was 10 minutes ago assuming each episode was 2 minutes at the time so it makes sense for a "little time ago" to be more recent. It wouldn't make sense to say she surpassed Goku UI from episode 110 as his had more stamina and ki back then than currently which only had improved in polish moves. Assuming it was 110 UI Goku, Kefla should've surpassed his current stage. Goku only needed to power up a little which according to Gohan ignited her to power up more which was improved by Picoolo. He was fatigue to the point where after he did a direct shockwave punch to her which she mocked, he started panting hard and needed to finish the fight with a Kamekameka. But that's not to say his attacks didn't work as Kefla is just letting her ego get in the way and we clearly see her taking damage(damage marks, spitting, grunting in pain). It makes sense for her to only surpass SSBKK which already overpowered her more recently.

No, Goku used x20 during the whole first round with Jiren without mentioning the level and the aura wasn't super big, neither have anything to do with the level of Kaioken he's using. I wasn't referring to 110 UI as the level Kafla had surpassed, I was referring to 115 UI, something that had just happened. Also, again, whole theme of the fight.

Base Goku > SS2 Caulifla (because of skill)
SS2 Caulifla (improved) > Base Goku
SS2 Goku > SS2 Caulifla
SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale > SS2 Goku
SS3 Goku > SS2 Caulifla and CBSS Kale
SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale > SS2 Goku (though I think Goku using SS3 here would've worked better)
SSG Goku > SS2 Caulifla and MBSS Kale
Kafla > SSG Goku
SSB Goku > Kafla
SS1 Kafla > SSB Goku
SSB KKx20 Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS1 Kafla (full power) > SSB KKx20 Goku
UIO Goku > SS1 Kafla
SS2 Kafla > UIO Goku
UIO Goku (improved) > SS2 Kafla

Whenever Goku speaks only "Kaioken" without specifying the level, he is using the normal Kaioken. But if he's using Kaioken on a higher level, he's always going to get the quote from some character specifying that level or Goku himself will say that. In the fight against Jiren, Goku did not specify the level of the technique, but it was said by Beerus and Whis that Goku was using the Kaioken x20.

In EP 123, Goku did not specify the level of the Kaioken, but Beerus again stated that he was using all the forces he possessed, indicating that he was also using the Kaioken x20. If Goku only speaks "Kaioken" and does not have any external quotation specified the level used, then it is only the normal Kaioken

And if Piccolo was saying that Kefla has surpassed the level that Goku had "not long ago", this refers to the most recent level used in EP 115 and not the UI of EP 110. In that case, it would make sense that Whis explanation about Genkidama was not referring to power, but to the fact that Kefla and Genkidama forced Goku to activate the UI

[buutenks]

TOEI base Goku>>>everyone else.

/thread.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

TOEI base Goku>>>everyone else.

/thread.

Solid Hit >>>> High Power Level

It's an exaggeration on my part, but I feel it's appropriate.

[brett wheeler]

Time for some speculation. How big is the power gap between fatigued SSG/SSJB Goku and healthy GoKU. I am just trying to place Kefla's various states in relation to to Full Power Goku

well, from my perspective it would seem fairly large, goku had just gotten his ability to stand properly back agian in the prior episode, maximum I see goku able to use is 10% of full power so the same could be said for his forms, this is atleast my piont of view and by this I assume its around a 10* diffrence ( ps I dont know how tf goku used ssb much less ssbkk literally seconds after barely being able to stand straight)..

[Miracles]

It's also a fact that Dyspo has only ever increased his speed throughout his fights in the whole tournament, meaning that he set a precedent for ONLY his speed being what he focuses power into to increase. Also, claiming that he slapped the attack away with strength is just as valid, if not less so, an interpretation as him having enough of Freeza's sh*t and slapping away his fist. Your argument isn't the only one that can be backed up by that logic. [X] thing doesn't always have [Y] meaning; it's not some mathematical equation.

You have limited evidence based subjective interpretation compared to me and other people's factual statements and established precedence for the character himself.

I have clear visual proof. Dyspo swatting away Golden Freeza's punch when he couldn't handle his physical strength before SHOWS Dyspo's overall power increased.
It had nothing to do with Dyspo's attitude being the reason why he was able to block it. What?

You guys are interpreting everything based on singular statements. We know Jiren is fast but no one in the crowd mentions it. It states how strong he always is. That doesn't mean he doesn't have speed.
It's the same with Dyspo. Unless you can show me the basic Dragonball rule being broken that power ups don't increase overall power?

Hit powers up and doesn’t increase his powerlevel. Also, I don’t see the need to abide to fanmade rules. We have a clear case of a character only increasing his speed and that alone seems enough to justify his performance. Once his movements are restricted he is no big deal to Gohan.

Dyspo had Gohan on the ropes and was about to deliver a finishing blow until some plot kicked in and Gohan grabbed Dyspo fist stating he can't afford to lose. It wasn't a one-sided fight, even tho they took his advantage in movement away. Also, it is not a fanmade rule that Power ups increase overall power. The fanmade rule is trying to turn Dragonball into some type of one type attack specialist and pretending skill can override raw power. Why do you think Goku changed from red to Blue in the instant he attacked to stop Dyspo from blitzing him? Whis even states this approach "maximizes his speed and power!" Why do you think UI Goku needed a power boost even though he has auto dodge to even compete with Jiren?
Same with Hit in episode 39...Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."

[Kenneth La Torre]

Do people think Kefla is G.o.D level? I know she is above a SSB Kaioken x20 at her maximum shown, but it’s that enough to justify some people putting her up there with the gods? I honestly think toppo rapes her in terms of raw power alone, add the destruction aura and techniques, and Its bye bye for Kefla.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I have clear visual proof. Dyspo swatting away Golden Freeza's punch when he couldn't handle his physical strength before SHOWS Dyspo's overall power increased.
It had nothing to do with Dyspo's attitude being the reason why he was able to block it. What?

You guys are interpreting everything based on singular statements. We know Jiren is fast but no one in the crowd mentions it. It states how strong he always is. That doesn't mean he doesn't have speed.
It's the same with Dyspo. Unless you can show me the basic Dragonball rule being broken that power ups don't increase overall power?

Hit powers up and doesn’t increase his powerlevel. Also, I don’t see the need to abide to fanmade rules. We have a clear case of a character only increasing his speed and that alone seems enough to justify his performance. Once his movements are restricted he is no big deal to Gohan.

Dyspo had Gohan on the ropes and was about to deliver a finishing blow until some plot kicked in and Gohan grabbed Dyspo fist stating he can't afford to lose. It wasn't a one-sided fight, even tho they took his advantage in movement away. Also, it is not a fanmade rule that Power ups increase overall power. The fanmade rule is trying to turn Dragonball into some type of one type attack specialist like pokemon or something. Why do you think Goku changed from red to Blue in the instant he attacked to stop Dyspo from blitzing him? Whis even states this approach "maximizes his speed and power!" Why do you think UI Goku needed a power boost even though he has auto dodge to even compete with Jiren?
Same with Hit in episode 39...Goku: "As expected...The strength in his attacks have powered up, as well."

But it IS fanmade to simply assume all powerups are uniform in how hey function. For example, SS Grade 3 is specifically noted for increasing power but also decreasing speed. Based on your interpretation, as a powerup, everything increases across the board. However, the show and manga state otherwise.

Same with Dyspo. Based on YOUR interpretation (non-factual and subjective, BTW), Dyspo increased everything across the board. However, the show states otherwise by only drawing attention to how much Dyspo has increased in speed; no character ever notes an increase in power, ONLY speed. Even his powerup refers ONLY to his speed, Super Maximum Light "SPEED" Mode.

Based on YOUR subjective and non-factual interpretation, Dyspo shouldn't even be noted for his speed and have exactly as much power as his speed would imply i.e. strength beyond even gods. His speed and power absolutely MUST correlate exactly based on your subjective and non-factual interpretation, which means no person ever in the series could have different trait allocation if they power up one stat, since they automatically have to power everything else up as well. It's an extremely slippery slope, argumentatively speaking.