ZombieVito wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:45 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:12 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:17 pm
Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).
Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?
Uhm, No. Goku has more potential than every other mortal fighter. Not only he mastered in 48 minutes a technique that still eludes the Destroyers after millennia, he is also he prophesized rival of the Destroyer God.
Goku is the MC, after all. The writer isn't trying to lie to you, remember? Since Goku is the MC, then he is obviously going to end up at the top.
Toriyama disagreed.
OG Dragon Ball: Goku is the hero and the strongest.
Saiyan and Namek saga: Goku is the hero and the strongest.
Buu saga: Goku is the hero and the strongest.
BoG/RoF/U6/FT/TOP/Moro: Goku is the hero and the srongest.
End of Z: Goku is the hero and the strongest.
Oh, and by the way, Toriyama never intended to make Gohan that strong. Super Hero was originally going to be a Piccolo-centric movie. Gohan wasn't even a blip in Toriyama's radar if it wasn't for Toei's meddling.
The pedigree is clear and it shows us that Goku always ends up at the top. The main protagonist will always end up the strongest over the secondary characters.
Yuji wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:00 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:17 pm
Goku has been training his whole life and he's still weaker than Freeza. Both times they fought Goku only won because of a miracle (A legendary transformation nobody had seen in 1,000 years and then Freeza's own hubris).
Hot take, but I actually think Goku isn't gifted and has average potential for a Saiyan. He's the way he is today because he worked harder than everyone else. Isn't that the main theme of the series?
That's not a hot take, the series explicitly says so during the Saiyan arc and the only time it's really contested is in the Boo arc when Vegeta is coping. Even so, we see in Super Vegeta can easily catch up and surpass Goku with the same training methods and teachers and arguably outdo him as he never needed the ritual to achieve divine Ki.
The half-Saiyans are of course more naturally gifted, Broly is of course Broly, the U6 Saiyans also despite never achieving Super Saiyan forms all had incredible base power that rivaled Goku and Vegeta after Whis training even though they're all relatively young.
Even looking back at the old Saiyans, Goku's battle power as an adult even after a potential unlock and making use of multiple mystical/Godly training methods peaked at 416 (~900 with the Kamehameha). That's an average Saiyan out there just living his life and fighting aliens. To surpass Saiyan limits Goku afterward had to make use of unnatural training methods such as being dead and gravity training.
And yet, in the Tournament of Power, Vegeta sacrifices himself for Goku, recognizing Goku as the only one who can defeat Jiren and "trenspass into the domain of the Gods".