Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

How much stronger would you say Goku and Vegeta are in their base and normal super saiyan forms in the manga compared to the Buu arc?

I’ve gotten different answers to this elsewhere , some say their base forms would be stronger than anyone in z and others say they aren’t ridiculously stronger in those forms compared to where they were

Manga only

If the manga is anything like the movie and anime then they should have been far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. They've only gotten stronger since, at the least they should be around as strong as Ultimate Gohan was.

[Green]

Stronger than the Kaioshin that's for sure, could be as low as Buu Saga SS Goku-Perfect Cell or even as high as Fat Buu. If he fought Freezer in base in ROF arc, for sure stronger than SS2.

[ToshioWrites]

How much stronger would you say Goku and Vegeta are in their base and normal super saiyan forms in the manga compared to the Buu arc?

I’ve gotten different answers to this elsewhere , some say their base forms would be stronger than anyone in z and others say they aren’t ridiculously stronger in those forms compared to where they were

Manga only

If the manga is anything like the movie and anime then they should have been far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. They've only gotten stronger since, at the least they should be around as strong as Ultimate Gohan was.

The thing that always makes me wonder is the fact that FPSSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku in the manga and we know that Trunks barely beat Dabura who about Perfect Cell level iirc and then he spent the next year or so trying to hide from/getting butt kicked by Goku Black so it would seem like a crazy jump for trunks to go from ssj2 that was barely above dabura to being strong enough in base to one shot the likes of ss3 gotenks in that short of time without any ritual powerup or angel

[ChiefWamsutta]

How much stronger would you say Goku and Vegeta are in their base and normal super saiyan forms in the manga compared to the Buu arc?

I’ve gotten different answers to this elsewhere , some say their base forms would be stronger than anyone in z and others say they aren’t ridiculously stronger in those forms compared to where they were

Manga only

If the manga is anything like the movie and anime then they should have been far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. They've only gotten stronger since, at the least they should be around as strong as Ultimate Gohan was.

The bases of Vegeta and Goku definitely are not above SS3 Gotenks Buu Saga. This applies to the anime and the manga. Their base forms might be able to beat Namek Frieza by now.

No, you can't consider things like "Goku absorbing the power of SSGod" and "Saiyan Beyond God" and "Strong Base Form". The current arc of DBSuper is how one should measure their strengths. All of the confusion around how strong Goku and Vegeta were is a result of poor pre-production from the manga and anime. It was slightly rectified by the manga having Goku absorb the SSGod FORM.

Watching DBSuper from Episode 1 to Episode 131 will confuse people. You have to watch it and remember behind-the-scenes issues. Base Goku is not above SS3 Gotenks, not at all. Base Goku and Vegeta are in the tier they have been since DBZ.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The anime does state that gokus and vegetas base are way above a SSJ3 Gotenks based on actions (copy vegeta vs Gotenks). There is no reason to believe that their base is as strong as they were in z, when they have been training with an angel for years now. And during the Goku Black arc, they both became at least 10x stronger by the time they fought merged zamasu.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

For their base forms, I have the Saiyans (besides Goten, Trunks, and Pan) around the same level as Majin Buu, same as Piccolo right now; they're all relative to one another in untransformed states.

It's simple, shows progress, but also doesn't devalue how strong Majin Buu was, or how strong the god forms are.

[Marlowe89]

The bases of Vegeta and Goku definitely are not above SS3 Gotenks Buu Saga. This applies to the anime and the manga. Their base forms might be able to beat Namek Frieza by now.

No, you can't consider things like "Goku absorbing the power of SSGod" and "Saiyan Beyond God" and "Strong Base Form". The current arc of DBSuper is how one should measure their strengths. All of the confusion around how strong Goku and Vegeta were is a result of poor pre-production from the manga and anime. It was slightly rectified by the manga having Goku absorb the SSGod FORM.

Watching DBSuper from Episode 1 to Episode 131 will confuse people. You have to watch it and remember behind-the-scenes issues. Base Goku is not above SS3 Gotenks, not at all. Base Goku and Vegeta are in the tier they have been since DBZ.

That's still my interpretation as well. Those who are familiar with my posts here know that I've always theorized base Goku/Vegeta's strength to have been retconned at some point, but now I can confidently say I've been 100% convinced ever since Final Form Frieza was reliably shown to perform around the level of SSG Goku during U7's matches against Anilaza and Dyspo. Those feats corroborate what we see from RoF as well, where Frieza was fighting mostly evenly against a base Goku who was distinctly implied to possess the absorbed power level of Super Saiyan God -- except now that base form seems to have been replaced with the actual Super Saiyan God transformation at some point during the anime's out-of-universe continuity.

Basically, my conclusion is that while base Goku may have been significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks at some point in time, I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore from an authorial perspective. If Super is ever to be reanimated, I'm pretty sure the writers would definitely make certain decisions that would be more in line with the manga's power-scaling.

[Black Hawk]

That's still my interpretation as well. Those who are familiar with my posts here know that I've always theorized base Goku/Vegeta's strength to have been retconned at some point, but now I can confidently say I've been 100% convinced ever since Final Form Frieza was reliably shown to perform around the level of SSG Goku during U7's matches against Anilaza and Dyspo. Those feats corroborate what we see from RoF as well, where Frieza was fighting mostly evenly against a base Goku who was distinctly implied to possess the absorbed power level of Super Saiyan God -- except now that base form seems to have been replaced with the actual Super Saiyan God transformation at some point during the anime's out-of-universe continuity.

Basically, my conclusion is that while base Goku may have been significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks at some point in time, I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore from an authorial perspective. If Super is ever to be reanimated, I'm pretty sure the writers would definitely make certain decisions that would be more in line with the manga's power-scaling.

While I don't quite agree with this viewpoint, I'm very curious about and interested in it. Would the retcon change Super's stories to be more like the following?

Battle of Gods - Plays out as the manga depicts, with Gokū only battling Beerus as a SSJ Red, never losing the form. At some point afterward, Vegeta acquires Red too.
Revival of F - Gokū begins his battle with Freeza as a SSJ Red instead of base, then powering up to SSJ Blue later in the battle. Vegeta powers up to Blue right away.
Tournament of Destroyers - The idea to conserve SSJ Blue's power by using SSJ Red first simply didn't occur to Vegeta the way it occurred to Gokū.
Zero Mortals Plan - Again, the SSJ Red/Blue swapping technique didn't occur to Vegeta to use against Black until after the Room of Spirit and Time, in which he mastered it.

Something like that perhaps?

Another change I thought might take place was Vegeta's first battle with Black. Instead of demolishing Black as an "ORE NO BURUMA!!!" SSJ2, would Vegeta perhaps instead have used Red? After Future Zamas healed Black, Black could have then matched SSJ Red Vegeta, forcing him to go SSJ Blue, after which Future Zamas healed Black again, enabling him to match and best a SSJ Blue.

[Bullza]

The bases of Vegeta and Goku definitely are not above SS3 Gotenks Buu Saga. This applies to the anime and the manga. Their base forms might be able to beat Namek Frieza by now.

He's stronger than Buu and he matched Bergamo who is surely stronger than the drugged Basil. There's no way they've been merged all the way back to how they were at the start.

[AvatarReiko]

I was just reading the manga again and something got me pondering. Why on earth was 18 so afraid of Cell's island busters? The manga seemed to imply that she thought those blasts could kill her, though also said that Cell held back "just enough" power so that it wouldn't. This seems weird. The cyborgs were way stronger than Frieza, who himself could wipe out entire planets with trying. 18 tanked the same sword that sliced through Frieza, who previously survived a planet explosion while already half dead.This would suggest that her body is planet level +in durability yet she easily breaks her ankle in the TOP

There is also the issue of 18 being amazed at how strong Kid Trunks' final flash was, which is weird if she is planetary + . In fact, there are a lot of things that don't add up with the Cyborgs power-level wiae. They're supposed to be stronger than Frieza but their DC feats don't reflect it at all. Maybe one of you power level experts could explain

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I was just reading the manga again and something got me pondering. Why on earth was 18 so afraid of Cell's island busters? The manga seemed to imply that she thought those blasts could kill her, though also said that Cell held back "just enough" power so that it wouldn't. This seems weird. The cyborgs were way stronger than Frieza, who himself could wipe out entire planets with trying. 18 tanked the same sword that sliced through Frieza, who previously survived a planet explosion while already half dead.This would suggest that her body is planet level +in durability yet she easily breaks her ankle in the TOP

There is also the issue of 18 being amazed at how strong Kid Trunks' final flash was, which is weird if she is planetary + . In fact, there are a lot of things that don't add up with the Cyborgs power-level wiae. They're supposed to be stronger than Frieza but their DC feats don't reflect it at all. Maybe one of you power level experts could explain

Although this isn't explicitly stated in the series itself, I believe an idea of mine that I utilized in my own writing may be applicable and the answer the series would likely bring up if Toriyama, Toyotaro, and Toei ever decided to confront this topic.

In my own writing, I outline how many attacks SHOULD be destroying infrastructure and cracking mountains, but they don't because the aftereffects are specifically suppressed; collateral damage generally isn't necessary for focusing that kind of power to damage your opponent.

I believe the same occurs in fights in this series; they aren't causing destructive aftermath effects because it's not necessary. What's necessary is focusing that power on hurting your opponent, and thus fighters suppress aftereffects. So, an attack being more dangerous to a user of Ki doesn't necessarily mean it'll cause more collateral damage. Better Ki control means one can become stronger and hit harder, which means better suppression of aftermath effects.

Even in Resurrection of F, Freeza destroyed the planet because he could survive IN SPACE, and we see that Vegeta died because he couldn't. It's the actual Ki properties doing the damage, rather than the level of collateral destruction they cause.

[superfan2024]

Goku and Vegeta (or at least Goku) are indeed stronger than final form Freeza in their base forms. We don't know how strong, but they managed to train so much that their base forms have now reached at least Super Saiyan level.

[buutenks]

I was just reading the manga again and something got me pondering. Why on earth was 18 so afraid of Cell's island busters? The manga seemed to imply that she thought those blasts could kill her, though also said that Cell held back "just enough" power so that it wouldn't. This seems weird. The cyborgs were way stronger than Frieza, who himself could wipe out entire planets with trying. 18 tanked the same sword that sliced through Frieza, who previously survived a planet explosion while already half dead.This would suggest that her body is planet level +in durability yet she easily breaks her ankle in the TOP

There is also the issue of 18 being amazed at how strong Kid Trunks' final flash was, which is weird if she is planetary + . In fact, there are a lot of things that don't add up with the Cyborgs power-level wiae. They're supposed to be stronger than Frieza but their DC feats don't reflect it at all. Maybe one of you power level experts could explain

It is mostly inconsistency. But you could call it potency of attacks.

Like say the small ki blast from semi perfect Cell doing severe damage to android 16, while Piccolo's ki explosion completely vaporizing an island did nothing to 16 even tho he was standing right on it.

Basically someone with a higher BP can hurt someone with a lower BP doesnt matter how big the explosion is.

About the ToP question.Plot broke her ankle, lol. In universe tho, some opponent wounded her, so no biggy.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Basically, my conclusion is that while base Goku may have been significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks at some point in time, I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore from an authorial perspective. If Super is ever to be reanimated, I'm pretty sure the writers would definitely make certain decisions that would be more in line with the manga's power-scaling.

Ever since Episode 104 when Super Saiyan God was re-introduced, it was very clear the way the anime was trying to go with the arc. SSGod appearing in that episode was not a one-time thing, as it happened multiple times afterwards. I believe there are clear instances where Goku should have been using SSGod making this whole issue non-existent.


In fact, I am hoping to request someone to fan-edit DBSuper when all the episodes are available on Blu-ray. I would like someone to color over Goku's black "Saiyan Beyond God" hair moments with red Super Saiyan God hair.

1 ) "Saiyan Beyond God" Goku vs. Final Form Frieza in RoF Saga. Make Goku an SSGod here.
2 ) Just as Frieza is about to shoot a laser at the mortally wounded Goku, Vegeta sends a blast to interrupt the fight. Make Vegeta enter as an SSGod until he turns SSBlue for the first time.
3 ) Goku with black hair vs. Hit in U6-U7 tournament before he uses SSBlue. Make Goku an SSGod here.
4 ) Goku with black hair vs. Monaka-Beerus. Make Goku an SSGod throughout the fight.
5 ) Copy-Vegeta in base vs. SS3 Gotenks. Make Copy-Vegeta an SSGod here.
6 ) Goku with black hair vs. Copy-Vegeta in base. Make Goku and Copy-Vegeta SSGods here.
7 ) Goku with black hair vs. Skinny Buu. Make Goku an SSGod here.
8 ) Goku with black hair during the nighttime one-punch fight against Golden Frieza. Make each instance of black hair to be SSGod hair.

[ZombieVito]

Speaking of Boo.

I was watching his fight with Basil the other day and noticed something peculiar. That was the first time since he split into Good Boo that he got so enraged that he let out air. Is it possible he regained the lost power he had when the split happened?

Daizenshuu 7 implies that Fat Boo = Evil Boo in power and Goku did say in E30 that when he gets angry he grows stronger. This could be a great way to make the Trio de Danger more of a treat since they give Goku and Vegeta some trouble in the ToP.

[Marlowe89]

7 ) Goku with black hair vs. Skinny Buu. Make Goku an SSGod here.
8 ) Goku with black hair during the nighttime one-punch fight against Golden Frieza. Make each instance of black hair to be SSGod hair.

I'm not sure I'd consider those necessary changes, as Goku's match against Buu was clearly specified to be one where they were both holding back, plus Goku was using Super Saiyan Blue during his clash against Golden Frieza and we know he can switch between practically any form and Blue at will.

If there was any kind of retcon in regards to Goku's power, I'd think it would have been quite a while ago in the series -- likely long before the beginning of the Universe Survival saga.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I personally think Base Goku is above his initial SSBlue since he took several of Jiren's heavy blows whereas his initial SSBlue was obliterated by far lighter attacks even with Kaioken x20.

[Kenneth La Torre]

We got pictures of jiren as a kid, and I’m calling it now...




Jiren as a kid > beerus

[Hugo Boss]

At this point of the story, I think the Saiyans’ normal form should be at least stronger than Namek Arc Freeza. But the manga and the anime don’t have to depict them at the same level, since they have clear differences in other aspects.

In Champa Arc, there is a good indication that Frost’s true form is stronger, but Whis remarked Vegeta steadily improved after fighting Zamasu. So, let’s wait until Toyotaro finishes his version.

[TheUltimateNinja]

We got pictures of jiren as a kid, and I’m calling it now...




Jiren as a kid > beerus

I hope that's a flashback to him beating Belmond.