Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I think it’s safe to assume Boo was stronger than Freeza’s first form, which would put him more or less on Cell’s level of threat without transforming. Freeza’s fourth form though is supposed to be comparable to Super Saiyan God, considering Goku and Vegeta’s normal forms reached that level of power after training with Whis and Freeza was close to them at that level.

Having said that, I still don’t see how Tagoma could be comparable with Ultimate Gohan, as he was weaker than even Super Saiyan Gohan. Ultimate Gohan is SS3 level or beyond, so Tagoma would be stronger than Boo and by extension even stronger than Freeza’s first form if that was the case.

That’s of course before Super decided to alter everything concerning Super Saiyan forms and Freeza’s battle power was retconned as well.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think there are problems knowing where RoF Freeza's forms fit in Z. The confusion comes with that weird 1.3 M line that makes no sense, that's like Goku saying 'I can be stronger than my SS form' after the Moro arc. And of course, how come base forms and FF Freeza were no longer as strong as in RoF(by now, they probably are).

By the way, how strong are base Goku and base Vegeta right now, in the Granola arc, now that we've seen their greatest efforts?

UI base Goku seems a bit below SS, but how would their base forms fare in Z? or in DBS?

How strong is a current super saiyan? can it beat Kid Buu? SP Cell? Dabura?

SS2 by now can beat Buuhan?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I always use the End of Z as my main reference.

Uub uses Pure Buu's potential within himself, pushes base Goku to fight somewhat seriously.

The way I see it, Goku and comparable characters have essentially hit their EoZ peak at the start of the Super era once they began leveling up their power to the god forms, with improvements being made in other forms instead. So, Goku as of RoF is fairly even with himself in the same forms as of the Broly movie; maybe slight improvements, but nothing massive besides Ultra Instinct and SSB.

So what we're looking at is a base form sitting in raw power at around Pure Buu's level, which provides a good baseline that isn't wholly beyond what came before in the pre-EoZ/Super stuff but is still sizably large enough to justify how freaking strong Goku and comparable characters have gotten.

[Mr Baggins]

By the way, how strong are base Goku and base Vegeta right now, in the Granola arc, now that we've seen their greatest efforts?

I think it's pretty clear that they're finally closing in on EoZ Goku in strength, however strong that's supposed to be.

For most of Super, I'd say they were barely stronger than their Boo arc selves (looking at Vegeta vs. Cabba, Goku vs. Frost, Goku vs. Trunks, Goku getting rusty by the US arc, etc.) and it actually wasn't until the Moro arc that both of them were directly implied to make significant leaps in their base forms. On top of that, Goku's now using UI in base, so it's fair to say that they've come a long way since Super's first half.

Manga-only, of course. I don't think the TV anime's writers know or care; it's too inconsistent to pin down.

[ZombieVito]

As a general note, Goku’s blue form got stronger during the recruitment episodes, he even trained with Whis in the gravity chamber, and despite that he was doing just fine against Toppo. Gohan’s ultimate form and No.17 together still weren’t quite on that level, as Toppo was single handily fighting them with relative ease. So, assuming one of them is somewhat comparable to SSB Goku is quite generous, to be honest.

[…]
And if we take the Moro Saga into account, Gohan got considerably stronger to the point Goku could not recognize him. There's no way Gohan is still as weak as a SSG, which is 50 times weaker than a SSB.

Same with Piccolo. There's no way that he is still mere SSJ tier after his Moro Saga training.

Worth mentioning the stickers aren’t conveying any event from Moro and Granolah arcs. So we should probably consider them until Broly’s movie.

To add to this, we do have 17 calling Freeza a "monster" in episode 131. It's clear both 17 and Gohan are still decently weaker than Goku/Vegeta/Freeza but still in the rivaling scale.

I have both around 75-80% of those 3.

I always use the End of Z as my main reference.

Uub uses Pure Buu's potential within himself, pushes base Goku to fight somewhat seriously.

The way I see it, Goku and comparable characters have essentially hit their EoZ peak at the start of the Super era once they began leveling up their power to the god forms, with improvements being made in other forms instead. So, Goku as of RoF is fairly even with himself in the same forms as of the Broly movie; maybe slight improvements, but nothing massive besides Ultra Instinct and SSB.

So what we're looking at is a base form sitting in raw power at around Pure Buu's level, which provides a good baseline that isn't wholly beyond what came before in the pre-EoZ/Super stuff but is still sizably large enough to justify how freaking strong Goku and comparable characters have gotten.

But how do you explain SS3 Gotenks vs Base Commeson Vegeta?

[Hugo Boss]

But how do you explain SS3 Gotenks vs Base Commeson Vegeta?

My take is that the writer based Goku and Vegeta’s strength on how RoF wrote them, so they were probably using SSGod’s powerlevel as a base.

[ZombieVito]

My take is that the writer based Goku and Vegeta’s strength on how RoF wrote them, so they were probably using SSGod’s powerlevel as a base.

Well, that's an out of universe explanation but it doesn't work for me. I need a in universe one or their base states are simply stronger than SS3 Gotenks for me. I suppose you can say the kids slacked off so they became weaker and so did Gotenks. I also suspect Oob never fought a serious base Goku so there's wiggle room there to fit Super's progression.

[Koitsukai]

I agree that the saiyan's base by now should be around Kid Buu-ish level. It could be even higher, now that Uub has god ki and was so useful in the Moro arc.


My 2 cents about 17 and Gohan: when Toppo, a really, really strong SSB level fighter (one that withstood Golden Freeza's and 17's attack and was still standing) got caught up between Freeza and 17, he never went "oh, Freeza is here, I should pay more attention to that guy and disregard this little shit 17", he tried holding both of them off, implying 17 wasn't that far off in terms of power but still no match.

To me, if base = SSG and SS = SSB, then 17 and Gohan are like KKx25/30/40.

[Mr Baggins]

Well, that's an out of universe explanation

Whatever happens in-universe is 100% dependent on what happens out-of-universe. Without the latter, the former literally cannot exist. If writer A decides X but writer B decides contradictory Y, either both of them are right or neither of them are.

That's just fiction.

[Hugo Boss]

My take is that the writer based Goku and Vegeta’s strength on how RoF wrote them, so they were probably using SSGod’s powerlevel as a base.

Well, that's an out of universe explanation but it doesn't work for me. I need a in universe one or their base states are simply stronger than SS3 Gotenks for me. I suppose you can say the kids slacked off so they became weaker and so did Gotenks. I also suspect Oob never fought a serious base Goku so there's wiggle room there to fit Super's progression.

You weren’t clear on which kind of answer you wanted, but honestly, from an in-universe standpoint, I doubt you can reconcile this fight with others like Goku vs. Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Roshi and Boo without assuming they were all on the same level and much stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Not to mention Freeza’s fourth form being weaker than his first form.

And to justify my position, Vegeta described Super Saiyan Blue in the same way Goku described it to Freeza in RoF, suggesting their base forms were really considered to be on Super Saiyan God level in that fight.

[KentMan]

I’m curious if Goku using UI in base would be comparable to PUI. And if so how strong would his PUI be ?

[Thani]

I’m curious if Goku using UI in base would be comparable to PUI. And if so how strong would his PUI be ?

Why would it be?

[KentMan]

Why would it be?

It’s what Whis told him

[KentMan]

I’m suspecting that Belmod might be the stronger destroyer based on feats and the fact that he’s Toyotaro twitter avatar.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m curious if Goku using UI in base would be comparable to PUI. And if so how strong would his PUI be ?

Ultra Instinct’s efficiency increases according to the transformations Goku uses. It’s better as a Super Saiyan than it is in his normal form, and it’s perfect at his silver haired form for a short time, until it decreases again. So, it’s unlikely that you could compare his current normal form with Ultra Instinct -Sign- for example. They’ve only have fought Granolah and Gas so far and ultra instinct is still functioning like that.

I’m suspecting that Belmod might be the stronger destroyer based on feats and the fact that he’s Toyotaro twitter avatar.

The strongest Gods of Destruction are Quitela and Beerus, based on their last standing on the battle stage after all the other Gods of Destruction fell. Vermoud merely waited until one of them win and he would have a better chance at beating the last one, as he would have more stamina.

Toyotaro’s twitter avatar is probably related to his liking, it doesn’t mean he sees Vermoud as the strongest. If that was the case he would have made it more clear in the manga.

[Koitsukai]

I’m curious if Goku using UI in base would be comparable to PUI. And if so how strong would his PUI be ?

He has already used it and it's only comparable to his SS form.

One could say that goes for every form with UI, and SSG +UI Goku would put up a decent fight against a SSB opponent, like Toppo or Golden Freeza. It sure made Granola struggle for a while.

[KentMan]

I’m curious if Goku using UI in base would be comparable to PUI. And if so how strong would his PUI be ?

Ultra Instinct’s efficiency increases according to the transformations Goku uses. It’s better as a Super Saiyan than it is in his normal form, and it’s perfect at his silver haired form for a short time, until it decreases again. So, it’s unlikely that you could compare his current normal form with Ultra Instinct -Sign- for example. They’ve only have fought Granolah and Gas so far and ultra instinct is still functioning like that.

I’m suspecting that Belmod might be the stronger destroyer based on feats and the fact that he’s Toyotaro twitter avatar.

The strongest Gods of Destruction are Quitela and Beerus, based on their last standing on the battle stage after all the other Gods of Destruction fell. Vermoud merely waited until one of them win and he would have a better chance at beating the last one, as he would have more stamina.

Toyotaro’s twitter avatar is probably related to his liking, it doesn’t mean he sees Vermoud as the strongest. If that was the case he would have made it more clear in the manga.

It’s what Whis says actually that made me realize that UI accuracy can be increase in base to PUI level. And that the PUI form itself should be used as a last resort. As for Belmod Toyotaro has never said who is the strongest destroyer and we have no idea who knocked out who except for Rumush amd Iwan. I suspected he might be because he outperformed Beerus and was uninjured.

[KentMan]

He has already used it and it's only comparable to his SS form.

One could say that goes for every form with UI, and SSG +UI Goku would put up a decent fight against a SSB opponent, like Toppo or Golden Freeza. It sure made Granola struggle for a while.

Nah he’s already above those two assuming Toppo hasn’t achieved UE and Frieza did some nonsense training. I’m saying that according to Whis UI accuracy in base can increase with training.

[Thani]

He has already used it and it's only comparable to his SS form.

One could say that goes for every form with UI, and SSG +UI Goku would put up a decent fight against a SSB opponent, like Toppo or Golden Freeza. It sure made Granola struggle for a while.

Nah he’s already above those two assuming Toppo hasn’t achieved UE and Frieza did some nonsense training. I’m saying that according to Whis UI accuracy in base can increase with training.

It can, supposedly even to the level of the silver state, that is possible. But it wouldn't give the same raw boost in, well, everything that the form gives.

So basically, performance wise, Base UI can be = PUI, but power wise, PUI will always be > Base UI.

Which is dumb, to me, since the narrative always led us to believe that simply using UI makes one assume that silver visage. But oh well.

[KentMan]

It can, supposedly even to the level of the silver state, that is possible. But it wouldn't give the same raw boost in, well, everything that the form gives.

So basically, performance wise, Base UI can be = PUI, but power wise, PUI will always be > Base UI.

Which is dumb, to me, since the narrative always led us to believe that simply using UI makes one assume that silver visage. But oh well.

I don’t think that’s what Whis was implying he made it seem that Goku shouldn’t have to transform in the silver hair unless as a last resort. Goku increasing his UI accuracy in base will strength his saiyan forms and Silver haired form would be much more powerful