Marz wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:13 pm
HeroR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm
It was protected since Jiren had to literally break his limits to even began to overwhelmed UI and he still lost. UI was never defeated, Jiren knocked him down once, Goku got a second win and Jiren never got the advantage again. Jiren in the manga overpowered UI the moment he punched him out of it. Claiming that Jiren defeated UI because he knocked UI down once is like saying Frieza defeated Super Saiyan Goku when he buried him into Namek after he pushed his way around Goku's full power Kamehameha.
You said that nobody wanted to put anything above the UI. And this is wrong because in Goku's very first fight with this transformation, he is outmatched and outright overpowered by Jiren. It doesn't matter if Jiren needed to ''break his limits'', Goku also needed to get stronger than he was to gain the upper hand again.
HeroR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmIt was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.
Beerus says right to your face that the battle was about which of the two would run out of stamina first. Jiren's power boost just allowed him to force Goku's stamina to run out faster since as Whis said, Jiren's faster and stronger attacks forced Goku to react faster too and that took a toll on his body (wasting more of energy). Jiren never surpassed or overpowered Goku in terms of sheer strength, he just made his stamina run out faster.
HeroR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm
Moro's hands weren't the size of a planet. At best, it was the size of a small mountain. And again, why the hell didn't Goku dodge instead of flying through Moro's hands. And if he was draining everyone on Earth, why wasn't he draining Vegeta and everyone else when they were literally on the ground?
Goku dodged his attacks too, but there were just too many hands and he was able to get through them with his strength anyway
And as posted above, Moro was draining the energy from everyone on Earth faster than Vegeta could drain him.
HeroR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:39 pm
He didn't need to see Tien do it to know that he cut his power and speed in fourths. And remember, this is a Goku who only just learned to sense ki and he figured that out. And Vegeta not knowing that Granolah power also an issue.
It isn't about organically. We're talking about a person who learned to sense energy so well that he can sense ki from across the galaxy to used his IT, so you're trying to tell me that he suddenly can't tell when someone right in front of him cut their power in half or more.
I can tell now that you haven't really read the manga, because Granola doesn't split his power right in front of Goku. He knew about the arrival of the Saiyans before and that's why he had already prepared a clone to face them earlier, to save energy to fight Frieza. Goku didn't know the guy, and the original was hidden inside his ship away from the battlefield, so obviously there was no way for him to tell if his power was splitted or weaker than it should, lol. And worse, the clone was so strong that Goku even admits that he'd probably have to go all out, so power wasn't really a metric to use for him.
The comparison with Tien doesn't make any sense anyway. Goku's strategy against him wasn't about finding the real body, he capitalized on the fact that Tien's eyesight was too good and used Solar Flare to blind him, and then realized that making the clones splitted Tien's power so Goku managed to take them all down easily. It has nothing to do with Granola's situation
Jiren only overpowered UI for a second and then Goku got a second win and beat him. Saying that Jiren knocked UI down once and 'he was over UI' is like me saying Frieza burying Super Saiyan Goku on Namek put him over.
Jiren's power boost allowed him to fight and beat UI when he was losing before. It's really no different than the anime except Jiren won. He overpowered UI.
He flew through Moro's hands, which is how he got caught, which is shown in the scan. Goku literally could have kept dodging instead of going for the Superman punch.
Uub gave energy to Goku when he was standing on the ground. So why wasn't his energy drained. Same with the rest of the Z-Fighters when they were donating.
" because Granola doesn't split his power right in front of Goku."
Did I say that? I said Goku should have noticed that Granola's power suddenly dropped since the multiform divides power. And Goku really shouldn't be that surprised since he faced the multiform before and he saw that Granola knew a bunch of old goodies.
And isn't about 'finding the true body'. It's about Goku being shocked by a multiform technique that he flexed when he was a teenager.
Skar wrote: ↑Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:30 pm
LightBing wrote: ↑Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pmIt's impossible to argue that Goku shouldn't have surpassed Beerus by now when the latter hasn't improved, while first has gone through several power up's. As stated by Toriyama in reference to BoG, Goku was a 6 to Beerus 10.
Yeah the scale works for the movies since Beerus at 70% would still be stronger than Goku who was at 60% of his power. It made sense to remove that line for DBS since they likely weren't sure how long the series would last and when Toriyama finally decides to have Goku surpass Beerus.
I think all the lines about characters being close to Beerus could still work since we don't know the gap between them. Toriyama only came up with SSJB so he might not have had it grow as powerful as in the manga and anime. If Blue Vegetto was a 10, Blue Gogeta might only be an 11 or 12 and not necessarily strong enough to one shot Vegetto. Same with Jiren, Broly, and UI Goku. I still think it would be odd for Toriyama or any author to have a character compared to Beerus when they're really only a tiny fraction of his power since it would be easier to not include those lines at all.
Toriyanm more or less told us why those lines where removed. Namely, he wanted to keep Goku and Vegeta weaker than Beerus because if they became stronger there wouldn't be much way to go from there. However, that was back before the Future Trunks Saga aired in the anime and he's obviously putting Goku and Vegeta within range of Beerus if he has no problem making foes like Jiren and Broly who are comparable to Beerus. So much so that he gave Goku a massive power-up and took it away, so Goku remains only as strong as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan allows him for that time.
We also don't know how much power Beerus has or hasn't used. Most who go by 'Beerus is using a small faction of his power' use it to pushed that Beerus could easily beat Jiren and Broly. Which makes little sense in the way of Jiren since Beerus would need to basically one-shot Belmond to stomp Jiren and nothing shows that Belmond is that weak. And if Broly was no match for Beerus at all, why even have Goku say anything? At least Toyo saying Vegito Blue = Beerus makes sense in the sense that Toyo wanted Vegito for fan-service and really wanted to wanked him, only to walked it back and say 'well, Shin could be wrong, who knows'.