Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

Gohan has not actually controlled Beasts Max power, he has control over the maximum amount of power he can muster BEFORE going berserk and only for a short time as it drains his stamina since he hasn't mastered the form. Gohan cannot access the true full power of Beast until he can master it to the point that there is no going Berserk. Broly watched Gohan's trick of stopping right before going Berserk and that is how he is able to use his unique SS now without losing his shit. I don't see any way Broly's full power would be at Gohans full power, and if you are saying Broly is stronger than Beerus than you would have to say Gohan is stronger than both and that Black Frieza is stronger than Beerus as well. I don't think taking any statements from before the recent chapters would work anymore in terms of Beerus and Broly's power.

[Mr Baggins]

Gohan was the “controlled berserker”. Broly was more like Gohan when he is not in that “controlled berserker” level.

I think GreatSaiyaman123's point is that Broly is using the actual form associated with SSFP, not necessarily that he's at max power. I agree that there's more strength to be drawn out and controlled, though, hence Beerus's statement. He's clearly not at his best yet.

I'd probably rank them differently depending on the following criteria:

Experience:

1. Goku/Vegeta
2. Gohan
3. Broly

Power:

1. Gohan/Broly
2. Goku
3. Vegeta

Overall:

1. Gohan/Goku
2. Broly/Vegeta

Also, as said before, Granolah and Gas aren't doing shit to any one of these characters. Super Saiyan Full Power Broly from any arc turns them into paste, and Orange Piccolo could probably handle them too.

They made it clear in chapter 102 or 103 that he couldn't transform at all.

They could make it clear hundreds of times. Remember you're replying to the guy insisting that TUI is Goku's strongest form, that Beerus secretly gets offscreen power-ups between story arcs, that Blue fusions are forever weaker than Beerus because of something said in BoG (before Blue was ever a thing), and now that Broly could always transform into SS – despite the text directly spelling out the exact opposite of all of this on multiple occasions. There's a common theme here.

I stopped addressing that kind of myopia a long time ago. There are reasonable posts just trying to gauge Super's intended totem pole, and then there's the shit that reads like it belongs on FanVerse or Comic Vine.

[Miracles]

CH. 101, 102 and 103 says Broly didn't know how to go SSJ after controlling himself; In a controlled state. However, Broly knows how to go SSJ when he loses control CH. 93 & 101. These are the facts.

The headcanon is that Broly could never go SSJ at all. This is something that was absolutely never said in the story.

[Hugo Boss]

Not to mention the rude approach to any disagreement: “Wrong as usual”, “Do you know what this word means?”, “these are the facts”, “Headcanon…”.

This doesn’t belong here, nor do we have time for that.

By the way, this is what Goku said: "He's a Saiyan like me, but he's probably even stronger than Beerus-sama!". Goku implies, according to his own belief, that Broly is, without much doubt, stronger than Beerus. That suggests he is almost certain of it, if we even need to be careful about what impact this may have.

Despite that, he is continuously told to not be able to unleash his true might after his first battle with Goku and Vegeta, even now that he has transformed into Super Saiyan again. This is what Beerus said: “He’s only managed to become a Super Saiyan. Son Goku’s son seems to have better control over his powers.”. Beerus implies Broly still hasn’t managed to handle his power the same way Gohan does, increasing it to near breaking point to its maximum efficiency. This is why Broly still isn’t considered stronger than the other Saiyans.

On a side note, I actually agree Gohan is still working on perfecting his Beast form, which only suggests Broly has an even wider gap between his current level and his full potential.

[Miracles]

There lies the problem. You claimed last post Broly was stronger than Beerus now you are saying it was implied. You corrected yourself. Secondly, Broly controlling SSJ or not is not the issue on this topic. The issue is people were/are theorizing that Broly could never use his full power in the Moro and Granolah arcs when it was never stated then or ever now. When in fact Broly was going to go berserk in CH 93. The issue for Broly was always and is control [Stated in the DBS: Broly Movie too] not the headcanon of being incapable of accessing his full power.

[Hugo Boss]

There lies the problem. You claimed last post Broly was stronger than Beerus now you are saying it was implied. You corrected yourself.

Not seeing the issue here. The implication hasn’t changed: the Broly from the movie is probably stronger than Beerus. It’s not wrong to make such a claim. I just find it intriguing that someone would claim this was never stated.

Secondly, Broly controlling SSJ or not is not the issue on this topic. The issue is people were/are theorizing that Broly could never use his full power in the Moro and Granolah arcs when it was never stated then or ever now. When in fact Broly was going to go berserk in CH 93. The issue for Broly was always and is control [Stated in the DBS: Broly Movie too] not the headcanon of being incapable of accessing his full power.

If you want to put in this way, actually it’s logical that he could use that power if he went for it. But for narrative purpose and by storytelling rules, his journey requires conflict and tension, so he won’t be able to escape from that situation until his character arc is complete. Storytelling is no fun if everything goes smoothly.

[Miracles]

There lies the problem. You claimed last post Broly was stronger than Beerus now you are saying it was implied. You corrected yourself.

Not seeing the issue here. The implication hasn’t changed: the Broly from the movie is probably stronger than Beerus. It’s not wrong to make such a claim. I just find it intriguing that someone would claim this was never stated.

The implication changed with the following arcs where stronger opponents than Broly came into play. The implication was proven wrong.

Secondly, Broly controlling SSJ or not is not the issue on this topic. The issue is people were/are theorizing that Broly could never use his full power in the Moro and Granolah arcs when it was never stated then or ever now. When in fact Broly was going to go berserk in CH 93. The issue for Broly was always and is control [Stated in the DBS: Broly Movie too] not the headcanon of being incapable of accessing his full power.
If you want to put in this way, actually it’s logical that he could use that power if he went for it. But for narrative purpose and by storytelling rules, his journey requires conflict and tension, so he won’t be able to escape from that situation until his character arc is complete. Storytelling is no fun if everything goes smoothly.

Yes and that tension comes with Broly only having trouble controlling his power not being incapable of accessing it.

[Hugo Boss]

That’s the whole point. The conflict being his own personal reasons for not using his full power, the solution being control. Until he figures out how to better use his power, he won’t be considered stronger than Goku, Beerus or any of the foes that came into play after he went berserk.

[Miracles]

Saying when Broly controls his power, making him stronger than the rest is just a theory. That's OK to have.

[Mr Baggins]

CH. 101, 102 and 103 says Broly didn't know how to go SSJ after controlling himself; In a controlled state. However, Broly knows how to go SSJ when he loses control CH. 93 & 101. These are the facts.

That doesn't even make sense. Broly doesn't "know" how to do anything when he's in a mindless state. If he could easily go Super Saiyan in 93 or 101, he would have done it, and his own movie already made it clear that he needed a greater trigger than just amping up his power to actually tap into the form.

What these chapters actually state is that Broly was unable to use Super Saiyan at will. Period; nothing additional added. This is all very open and shut.

Give it a rest, man. And stop with the rude condescension towards people while you're at it.

[Miracles]

CH. 101, 102 and 103 says Broly didn't know how to go SSJ after controlling himself; In a controlled state. However, Broly knows how to go SSJ when he loses control CH. 93 & 101. These are the facts.

That doesn't even make sense. Broly doesn't "know" how to do anything when he's in a mindless state. If he could easily go Super Saiyan in 93 or 101, he would have done it, and his own movie already made it clear that he needed a greater trigger than just amping up his power to actually tap into the form.

What these chapters actually state is that Broly was unable to use Super Saiyan at will. Period; nothing additional added. This is all very open and shut.

Give it a rest, man. And stop with the rude condescension towards people while you're at it.

All Broly has to do to go SSJ is go Berserk. Just like in CH. 93. However Goku literally stops him and says "you were about to go nuts again..." Just like in the latest chapter, when Broly went SSJ, Goku thought Broly went nuts.

[Mr Baggins]

All Broly has to do to go SSJ is go Berserk.

Evidently not, since both the chapters and (again) his own film pointedly make the distinction between Broly simply going berserk and Broly also going Super Saiyan, which had an additional qualifier.

Chapter 93's quote doesn't even mention Super Saiyan, so that's pointless to bring up.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding when 101 and 102 blatantly say that Broly didn't have at-will access to this form. We both know this. The only thing a remark like "Take your time and read Baggins, lol" (which I now see that you edited out of your post) accomplishes is making me want to add you to my ignore list.

[Miracles]

All Broly has to do to go SSJ is go Berserk.

Evidently not, since both the chapters and (again) his own film pointedly make the distinction between Broly simply going berserk and Broly also going Super Saiyan, which had an additional qualifier.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding when 101 and 102 blatantly say that Broly didn't have at-will access to this form. We both know this. The only thing a remark like "Take your time and read Baggins, lol" (which I now see that you edited out of your post) accomplishes is making me want to add you to my ignore list.

You are possibly confusing Broly accessing SSJ for the first time and making it his own with Broly subsequently tapping into a mode that is already his. Even after making SSJ his own in the movie Freeza states he needs to control his mind/power afterwards. Proof is definitely in the pudding, lol.

[Mr Baggins]

...a point repeatedly made in the last several chapters is that Broly didn't make Super Saiyan his own. That was partly the entire purpose of his training.

I think I've added just about all there is to say here.

[Miracles]

You didn't add the facts. The point for Broly was to control himself. Not trying to achieve SSJ. The idea of making SSJ his own to mean not being able to access it is flat out wrong.

[SupremeKai25]

Can we finally put to rest this funny notion that anyone on that planet has surpassed Beerus? Or is even close to Beerus' full power?

Beerus is one of the most prideful, arrogant, and pompous characters in all of Dragon Ball. Do you seriously think that he would be so relaxed, chill, and laid-back if a lowly mortal actually surpassed him?

Broly, Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, and all the other mortals, even combined they are all still insects compared to Lord Beerus.

At no point have any of these mortals ever even come close to Beerus' power.

I'm seeing a lot of Saiyan wanking here. They are not that strong. They are not ready to challenge Lord Beerus.

[Hugo Boss]

With all due respect to Beerus, this notion isn’t new. Toei and Toyotaro have already worked with the idea that Beerus was surpassed in ToP arc. And Toriyama as well in the first Super movie, by providing the dialogue implying so.

You have to go out of your way to ignore dialogue and other implications throughout the series to make the case that Beerus had never been implied to be surpassed prior. The door always remained open for them to line that scene up (which were absolutely made, by all three of Toei, Toyotaro, and Toriyama). Now it’s up to Toyotaro.

[SupremeKai25]

With all due respect to Beerus, this notion isn’t new. Toei and Toyotaro have already worked with the idea that Beerus was surpassed in ToP arc. And Toriyama as well in the first Super movie, by providing the dialogue implying so.

You have to go out of your way to ignore dialogue and other implications throughout the series to make the case that Beerus had never been implied to be surpassed prior. The door always remained open for them to line that scene up (which were absolutely made, by all three of Toei, Toyotaro, and Toriyama). Now it’s up to Toyotaro.

Plans have changed since 2018. The Anime ToP and Broly movie are outdated. Plans change, power levels are retconned, the Super Revival has now been running for longer than the Original manga.

It was inevitable that Beerus would be upscaled. As the entire basis of Super is Goku's endless chase to become the worthy rival of the Destroyer, Beerus will only be surpassed in the Final arc, and only by Goku. That is the premise of BoG.

I don't see the value of treating a 2018 movie like it was gospel. That was 6 years ago. Old and retconned.

Based on the data that we have now, it is clear that Broly is no match for Beerus.

Also, it's worth noting that it's not confirmed if Movie Goku saw Beerus in action against the other Destroyers, as both Super movies pretty much ignored the Manga arcs.

At which point, the claim that Broly might be stronger than Beerus is entirely baseless, as Goku would have only seen 10% Beerus. He's never seen Full-Power Beerus, so how can he know how strong he is and how he compares to Broly?

[Hugo Boss]

While plans may have evolved since 2018, dismissing the significance of the Broly movie dialogue overlooks its narrative impact within the Dragon Ball Super series.

Regarding Broly's strength compared to Beerus, whether Goku saw Beerus in full action against other Gods of Destruction is speculative, and the notion that he's only witnessed a fraction of Beerus' power is not definitively established within the manga.

Therefore, suggesting that Broly's potential superiority over Beerus is entirely baseless oversimplifies the matter, as Dragon Ball Super’s storyline was largely based on Toriyama’s input and still continues to unfold.

[QuakingStar]

If you think Broly is stronger than Beerus with his max power, then you have to admit that Gohan is the strongest period with his max power. The direct implication of the line said for Gohan is that the condition for him to be the strongest is getting the limelight basically.

Statements being retconned is nothing new in this series, and I think the whole surpassing Beerus thing is one of those retconned things. It's also likely that Broly being stronger than Beerus was also retconned. In fact the latest statements only compare Broly's power to Cell Max by Toriyama himself. Toriyama's statement on Gohan is also there. So while Broly is still in the upper echelons, it seems very unlikely he is stronger than Beerus in the current power scale.