Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Spoiler:

Only one that surprised me was Broly. I did not expect him to get controlled ssj so early, and i didnt expect him to be on par with Gohan beast, even gohan wad amazed by his power. Also, i doubt base Broly was SSB levels in this chapter just because we saw him clash with ultimate Gohan. Its very likely his ssj form just has an absolutely MASSIVE multiplier. He is unique in that aspect. If he was blue levels, then what the fuck did he eat prior for that?

Anyways, they are all pretty much equals. I guess it goes in line with Broly > Incomplete Cell Max statement by toriyama.

So they can all aura tank Cell max... thats wild.

[QuakingStar]

Beast Gohan hitting UI Goku isn't special. Jiren did it. Moro and Granolah did as well. But generally UI Goku can't be hit and that is the point.

Beast can be stronger but if he can't hit or rarely hits UI Goku then what is the point of all that power? (Plus UI Goku gets hit when his stamina lowers)

Also didn't Black Freeza beat up Goku while he was tired and weak?

Spoiler:

Yes, to hit somebody using UI you need to have more speed than them because otherwise you will be blocked or dodged. Goku remaining calm during this fight is to showcase his new mastery of UI 2 years later. He was shocked when Gohan transformed and that didn't affect his mindset and later when Gohan powered up he still didn't have his mindset affected showing that he seemingly can remain calm in the heat of battle with nothing stopping his calmness now. Vegeta could have very well used UE off panel for the big battle royal but if Vegeta had managed to master UE then they might be saving its on panel appearance for later use. Goku and Vegeta have a noticeable experience advantage on Gohan and Broly who in turn have the overall power advantage. Goku also has UI's auto dodge and auto block as another advantage. I also feel like them saying Gohan hasn't quite mastered Beast yet and Toriyama insinuating he might make another form for Gohan but doesn't know what to make it look like before he died seems to show that once Gohan truly masters Beast we may see another version of it from him.

What got me the most, was Whis, Goku and Vegeta talking about Gohan saying Gohan was special, Gohan and Broly were similar and only Gohan could have made such a gigantic leap in power in one fell swoop. Then there is them saying that if Gohan wasn't so serious he could be God of Destruction. Cementing further in-universe that Gohan is genetically unique just like Broly is.

@Kenneth Gohan says that Broly's Super Saiyan is unlike anybody elses Super Saiyan so his multiplier within it is most definitely astronomical. His base form is able to fight SS Vegeta while his SS form is able to fight Beast and the others so whatever multiplier they get for Beast, UE and UI when transforming from Super Saiyan to those forms Broly gets when transforming from his base to his unique SS, showing it isn't the same multiplier as they get transforming from base but it is still gargantuan. Kales base was stronger than SS Caulifla and SS Cabba, her SS at full power was PSSB level generally, Broly's base is far stronger than hers so that is likely the kind of multiplier he is getting.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Beast Gohan hitting UI Goku isn't special. Jiren did it. Moro and Granolah did as well. But generally UI Goku can't be hit and that is the point.

Beast can be stronger but if he can't hit or rarely hits UI Goku then what is the point of all that power? (Plus UI Goku gets hit when his stamina lowers)

Also didn't Black Freeza beat up Goku while he was tired and weak?

Spoiler:

Yes, to hit somebody using UI you need to have more speed than them because otherwise you will be blocked or dodged. Goku remaining calm during this fight is to showcase his new mastery of UI 2 years later. He was shocked when Gohan transformed and that didn't affect his mindset and later when Gohan powered up he still didn't have his mindset affected showing that he seemingly can remain calm in the heat of battle with nothing stopping his calmness now. Vegeta could have very well used UE off panel for the big battle royal but if Vegeta had managed to master UE then they might be saving its on panel appearance for later use. Goku and Vegeta have a noticeable experience advantage on Gohan and Broly who in turn have the overall power advantage. Goku also has UI's auto dodge and auto block as another advantage. I also feel like them saying Gohan hasn't quite mastered Beast yet and Toriyama insinuating he might make another form for Gohan but doesn't know what to make it look like before he died seems to show that once Gohan truly masters Beast we may see another version of it from him.

What got me the most, was Whis, Goku and Vegeta talking about Gohan saying Gohan was special, Gohan and Broly were similar and only Gohan could have made such a gigantic leap in power in one fell swoop. Then there is them saying that if Gohan wasn't so serious he could be God of Destruction. Cementing further in-universe that Gohan is genetically unique just like Broly is.

@Kenneth Gohan says that Broly's Super Saiyan is unlike anybody elses Super Saiyan so his multiplier within it is most definitely astronomical. His base form is able to fight SS Vegeta while his SS form is able to fight Beast and the others so whatever multiplier they get for Beast, UE and UI when transforming from Super Saiyan to those forms Broly gets when transforming from his base to his unique SS, showing it isn't the same multiplier as they get transforming from base but it is still gargantuan. Kales base was stronger than SS Caulifla and SS Cabba, her SS at full power was PSSB level generally, Broly's base is far stronger than hers so that is likely the kind of multiplier he is getting.

Oh my bad, was i supposed to hide my reply? If i spoiled anyone, deeply sorry.

But yes, the multiplier has to be insane. And thank you for bringing kales form as an example. I forgot about her existence and the fact her ssj form is also an astronomically huge mutliplier. More evidence to the hypothesis.

[QuakingStar]

Spoiler:

Beast Gohan hitting UI Goku isn't special. Jiren did it. Moro and Granolah did as well. But generally UI Goku can't be hit and that is the point.

Beast can be stronger but if he can't hit or rarely hits UI Goku then what is the point of all that power? (Plus UI Goku gets hit when his stamina lowers)

Also didn't Black Freeza beat up Goku while he was tired and weak?

Spoiler:

Yes, to hit somebody using UI you need to have more speed than them because otherwise you will be blocked or dodged. Goku remaining calm during this fight is to showcase his new mastery of UI 2 years later. He was shocked when Gohan transformed and that didn't affect his mindset and later when Gohan powered up he still didn't have his mindset affected showing that he seemingly can remain calm in the heat of battle with nothing stopping his calmness now. Vegeta could have very well used UE off panel for the big battle royal but if Vegeta had managed to master UE then they might be saving its on panel appearance for later use. Goku and Vegeta have a noticeable experience advantage on Gohan and Broly who in turn have the overall power advantage. Goku also has UI's auto dodge and auto block as another advantage. I also feel like them saying Gohan hasn't quite mastered Beast yet and Toriyama insinuating he might make another form for Gohan but doesn't know what to make it look like before he died seems to show that once Gohan truly masters Beast we may see another version of it from him.

What got me the most, was Whis, Goku and Vegeta talking about Gohan saying Gohan was special, Gohan and Broly were similar and only Gohan could have made such a gigantic leap in power in one fell swoop. Then there is them saying that if Gohan wasn't so serious he could be God of Destruction. Cementing further in-universe that Gohan is genetically unique just like Broly is.

@Kenneth Gohan says that Broly's Super Saiyan is unlike anybody elses Super Saiyan so his multiplier within it is most definitely astronomical. His base form is able to fight SS Vegeta while his SS form is able to fight Beast and the others so whatever multiplier they get for Beast, UE and UI when transforming from Super Saiyan to those forms Broly gets when transforming from his base to his unique SS, showing it isn't the same multiplier as they get transforming from base but it is still gargantuan. Kales base was stronger than SS Caulifla and SS Cabba, her SS at full power was PSSB level generally, Broly's base is far stronger than hers so that is likely the kind of multiplier he is getting.

[Sanity's_Theif]

Spoiler:

Seems after using MUI a second time, Goku have no major difficulty.
He wasn't even 100% concentrated cause he look at Broly during the fight with Gohan.
At the end, he block Beast Gohan punch with ease. At this moment, he can use a devastating counter attack but just use a kiai to stop the fight.
He even say to Vegeta he want just to see the true power of Gohan with no desire to winning (implying he can ?).
Add the fact Vegeta choose to use only Pefect SSBLUE (not aura/no blue evolution).
And he seems to be able to trade hit with Beast in this form.
So it's very suspicious.

And it's Dragon Ball, if Gohan was the strongest among the four, this would have been stated in the chapter.
Especially with the oracle fish.
To me, everything points to Gohan Beast be a top fighter but a bit below Goku/Vegeta full power.
And probably a bit below a LSSJ Broly

Spoiler:

I agree, it would've outright been stated in some way if Gohan was the strongest. It's also suspicious that Goku didn't use True UI, so that makes me think he's still the strongest out of everyone, which makes sense because it's Goku's story.

So in that frame of reference, Gohan is up to speed again, but he still has stuff to work on with control of the form, Broly is in a similar scenario but with way more potential than anyone there, and Goten and Trunks are just kind of there. I think Goku/Vegeta are still the strongest, which makes sense as they are in more of a mentor role to Gohan/Broly/Goten/Trunks.

It seemed like Goten and Trunks had more potential than Gohan when they first showed up because they became SSJ without much effort, but it seems like that fell off a while ago. The scariest thing is that Broly is only a SSJ and is just straight up an equal to Beast Gohan. SSJ2 Broly is a ridiculous thought, let alone any God Ki. There's absolutely no doubt Broly has the highest potential out of anyone in the entire series, and him being such a wildcard makes it interesting.

[Block88]

Spoiler:

Seems after using MUI a second time, Goku have no major difficulty.
He wasn't even 100% concentrated cause he look at Broly during the fight with Gohan.
At the end, he block Beast Gohan punch with ease. At this moment, he can use a devastating counter attack but just use a kiai to stop the fight.
He even say to Vegeta he want just to see the true power of Gohan with no desire to winning (implying he can ?).
Add the fact Vegeta choose to use only Pefect SSBLUE (not aura/no blue evolution).
And he seems to be able to trade hit with Beast in this form.
So it's very suspicious.

And it's Dragon Ball, if Gohan was the strongest among the four, this would have been stated in the chapter.
Especially with the oracle fish.
To me, everything points to Gohan Beast be a top fighter but a bit below Goku/Vegeta full power.
And probably a bit below a LSSJ Broly

Spoiler:

I agree, it would've outright been stated in some way if Gohan was the strongest. It's also suspicious that Goku didn't use True UI, so that makes me think he's still the strongest out of everyone, which makes sense because it's Goku's story.

So in that frame of reference, Gohan is up to speed again, but he still has stuff to work on with control of the form, Broly is in a similar scenario but with way more potential than anyone there, and Goten and Trunks are just kind of there. I think Goku/Vegeta are still the strongest, which makes sense as they are in more of a mentor role to Gohan/Broly/Goten/Trunks.

It seemed like Goten and Trunks had more potential than Gohan when they first showed up because they became SSJ without much effort, but it seems like that fell off a while ago. The scariest thing is that Broly is only a SSJ and is just straight up an equal to Beast Gohan. SSJ2 Broly is a ridiculous thought, let alone any God Ki. There's absolutely no doubt Broly has the highest potential out of anyone in the entire series, and him being such a wildcard makes it interesting.

TRUE UI isn't strong than the silver form

[Sanity's_Theif]

Spoiler:

Seems after using MUI a second time, Goku have no major difficulty.
He wasn't even 100% concentrated cause he look at Broly during the fight with Gohan.
At the end, he block Beast Gohan punch with ease. At this moment, he can use a devastating counter attack but just use a kiai to stop the fight.
He even say to Vegeta he want just to see the true power of Gohan with no desire to winning (implying he can ?).
Add the fact Vegeta choose to use only Pefect SSBLUE (not aura/no blue evolution).
And he seems to be able to trade hit with Beast in this form.
So it's very suspicious.

And it's Dragon Ball, if Gohan was the strongest among the four, this would have been stated in the chapter.
Especially with the oracle fish.
To me, everything points to Gohan Beast be a top fighter but a bit below Goku/Vegeta full power.
And probably a bit below a LSSJ Broly

Spoiler:

I agree, it would've outright been stated in some way if Gohan was the strongest. It's also suspicious that Goku didn't use True UI, so that makes me think he's still the strongest out of everyone, which makes sense because it's Goku's story.

So in that frame of reference, Gohan is up to speed again, but he still has stuff to work on with control of the form, Broly is in a similar scenario but with way more potential than anyone there, and Goten and Trunks are just kind of there. I think Goku/Vegeta are still the strongest, which makes sense as they are in more of a mentor role to Gohan/Broly/Goten/Trunks.

It seemed like Goten and Trunks had more potential than Gohan when they first showed up because they became SSJ without much effort, but it seems like that fell off a while ago. The scariest thing is that Broly is only a SSJ and is just straight up an equal to Beast Gohan. SSJ2 Broly is a ridiculous thought, let alone any God Ki. There's absolutely no doubt Broly has the highest potential out of anyone in the entire series, and him being such a wildcard makes it interesting.

TRUE UI isn't strong than the silver form

Spoiler:

Was that ever confirmed? What chapter? Just to clarify I'm not doubting it, I just can't find where it was stated, I must be blind.

Doesn't matter anyways. Full scans are out. Gohan was exhausted huffing and panting just to get 1 good hit on Goku. It did knock him out of UI for a second, but he just popped right back into UI. Not just that, Goku was able to let his focus wander and see that Broly wanted to fight, and then Goku just knocked Gohan down and said that was enough.

Damn, I wanted to believe all the hype that Gohan made a comeback, or just that anyone had finally made it past Goku again. I just want more equality at the top, it makes a team dynamic way more interesting, but it's pretty clear that Goku is still above everyone else and whatever they do with Frieza it will definitely come down to just Goku at the end winning again. I don't know about anyone else but I'm bored of that outcome. I think Gohan is above Vegeta for sure, but I want Vegeta to get a win more than anyone else, he never gets to finish a fight. Best hope I think is for Broly to get above everyone else in the end at least.
[/quote]

[QuakingStar]

Spoiler:

You must be forgetting how UI works. Goku needs to remain calm in it(he has seemingly mastered his ability to remain calm in it as the shock from Gohans transformation and from Gohans power up did not make him lose it), and it possesses auto-dodge and auto-block. Goku going back into UI has not been an issue since the Moro Arc ended and despite the hits Goku himself landed Gohan sufferered no real damage and went on to fight SS Broly, then Blue Evolved Vegeta and then in the Battle Royal. He fought Goten and Trunks first. So yes they are all equal overal, Gohan and Broly have more power, but Goku has more experience as well as UI's Auto Dodge and Auto Block. Vegeta has more experience over them too. To get past UI's autoi ability you need to be so much faster than the UI user that their ability cannot react and Gohan did just that. You also seem to forget that Gohan has yet to master Beast and faces the risk of going berserk if he takes his power too high so instead he only takes his power up to the point right before he goes Berserk. Broly is using a unique SS form to which there has never been shown or stated it has a higher level to it and fans are using assumptions based off of the anime to say there is. Also to note that at the end of the battle royal we can see Gohan and Goku clearly, and while EVERYONE is exhausted Goku is beat up a lot while Gohan only has one bruise above his eyebrow.

One more example to try and get this across to you.. Trunks had more power than Cell did when he went into Ultra Super Saiyan, but he could not touch him. This is similar here in that Goku's Auto dodge and auto block require the enemy to gain a significant margin of speed advantage to actually hit the UI user and Vegeta literally points out in this chapter Goku's advantages are experience and UI's auto- reaction which is dodge and block. So no, Goku is not above Gohan in power or speed.

Gohan and Broly are the ones with the most power but Gohan clearly had the edge on Broly.

[Issei189]

Spoiler:

I agree, it would've outright been stated in some way if Gohan was the strongest. It's also suspicious that Goku didn't use True UI, so that makes me think he's still the strongest out of everyone, which makes sense because it's Goku's story.

So in that frame of reference, Gohan is up to speed again, but he still has stuff to work on with control of the form, Broly is in a similar scenario but with way more potential than anyone there, and Goten and Trunks are just kind of there. I think Goku/Vegeta are still the strongest, which makes sense as they are in more of a mentor role to Gohan/Broly/Goten/Trunks.

It seemed like Goten and Trunks had more potential than Gohan when they first showed up because they became SSJ without much effort, but it seems like that fell off a while ago. The scariest thing is that Broly is only a SSJ and is just straight up an equal to Beast Gohan. SSJ2 Broly is a ridiculous thought, let alone any God Ki. There's absolutely no doubt Broly has the highest potential out of anyone in the entire series, and him being such a wildcard makes it interesting.

TRUE UI isn't strong than the silver form

Spoiler:

Was that ever confirmed? What chapter? Just to clarify I'm not doubting it, I just can't find where it was stated, I must be blind.

Doesn't matter anyways. Full scans are out. Gohan was exhausted huffing and panting just to get 1 good hit on Goku. It did knock him out of UI for a second, but he just popped right back into UI. Not just that, Goku was able to let his focus wander and see that Broly wanted to fight, and then Goku just knocked Gohan down and said that was enough.

Damn, I wanted to believe all the hype that Gohan made a comeback, or just that anyone had finally made it past Goku again. I just want more equality at the top, it makes a team dynamic way more interesting, but it's pretty clear that Goku is still above everyone else and whatever they do with Frieza it will definitely come down to just Goku at the end winning again. I don't know about anyone else but I'm bored of that outcome. I think Gohan is above Vegeta for sure, but I want Vegeta to get a win more than anyone else, he never gets to finish a fight. Best hope I think is for Broly to get above everyone else in the end at least.

Spoiler:

It was confirmed in the previous chapter 102. When Goku transformed into the Silver Haired UI against Gohan. Beerus asks Whis if UI is the best trick Goku got right now and Whis responds that it seems so. Keep in mind that Beerus's question would make zero sense if you ignore the other two variants of UI

Spoiler:

[Sanity's_Theif]

Spoiler:

You must be forgetting how UI works. Goku needs to remain calm in it(he has seemingly mastered his ability to remain calm in it as the shock from Gohans transformation and from Gohans power up did not make him lose it), and it possesses auto-dodge and auto-block. Goku going back into UI has not been an issue since the Moro Arc ended and despite the hits Goku himself landed Gohan sufferered no real damage and went on to fight SS Broly, then Blue Evolved Vegeta and then in the Battle Royal. He fought Goten and Trunks first. So yes they are all equal overal, Gohan and Broly have more power, but Goku has more experience as well as UI's Auto Dodge and Auto Block. Vegeta has more experience over them too. To get past UI's autoi ability you need to be so much faster than the UI user that their ability cannot react and Gohan did just that. You also seem to forget that Gohan has yet to master Beast and faces the risk of going berserk if he takes his power too high so instead he only takes his power up to the point right before he goes Berserk. Broly is using a unique SS form to which there has never been shown or stated it has a higher level to it and fans are using assumptions based off of the anime to say there is. Also to note that at the end of the battle royal we can see Gohan and Goku clearly, and while EVERYONE is exhausted Goku is beat up a lot while Gohan only has one bruise above his eyebrow.

One more example to try and get this across to you.. Trunks had more power than Cell did when he went into Ultra Super Saiyan, but he could not touch him. This is similar here in that Goku's Auto dodge and auto block require the enemy to gain a significant margin of speed advantage to actually hit the UI user and Vegeta literally points out in this chapter Goku's advantages are experience and UI's auto- reaction which is dodge and block. So no, Goku is not above Gohan in power or speed.

Gohan and Broly are the ones with the most power but Gohan clearly had the edge on Broly.

Spoiler:

Off topic from the reply, but is anyone else upset that Vegeta didn't get to fight at all? He always gets shafted and I'm so tired of it. Maybe I'm just forgetting the previous arcs but I always feel like Vegeta is done dirty. It might just be me though since he's my favorite character, but I want to know what the general opinion is.

Back on topic to the reply(sorry to make the message structure confusing but I wanted to keep everything in spoiler tags):
What do you mean by Gohan took no damage? He took more hits than Goku did from what I counted. I'm sorry I'm trying to see what you're seeing but I can't, but to be fair I'm mostly skimming the scans because I'm spending most of my time working on my thesis so forgive me for not noticing something obvious.

I think you're right that I forgot how UI works. I think it was mentioned by Whis already that UI is not a transformation, but a mindset. But in that case, it makes it less impressive that Gohan knocked Goku out of UI because it means it just made Goku lose focus/calmness and nothing else(which makes sense seeing as how Goku went right back into UI without any issues). From that point of view, it still took Gohan all of that effort just to get 1 good hit that didn't even knock him out of a transformation, but just surprised Goku enough to the point that he wasn't calm. Looking at the scans again, it looks like it might have even been played off as comic relief than anything.

This just confirms even more to me that there's no getting around the fact that Gohan over-exerted himself just to get 1 good hit in. That's like a boxer who comes out in the first round throwing all his energy in just to get knocked out in the second round. I make the same mistake of over-exerting my energy when I'm in boxing, but I just can't keep track of my energy that well because I'm not a professional. To me, the fight was clearly going in the direction of Gohan wearing himself out before he managed to come anywhere close to finishing the fight.

Just to clarify, who is it you're saying Vegeta has more experience than? I assume only Goten, Trunks and Broly, but do you mean Gohan as well? I like to think Vegeta is just as/more experienced than Goku, but that might just be my bias, but I haven't really done a deep dive on the series in a long time so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I do remember that you have to be faster than the other person by at least a little bit to hit them in UI, but Goku has been hit by every single antagonist he used UI against, so does that even matter now? By that I mean, it's been the case that if Goku uses UI, he gets hit regardless of the fact that UI is supposed to make it so he's difficult to hit, so it seems like that's more of an ideal situation than reality.

No I didn't see where it was stated that Gohan hasn't mastered Beast, in fact I thought he said Piccolo helped him master it? Regardless, my personal belief is that Gohan has indeed not mastered Beast, but I'm trying to be objective in saying that I didn't see any proof and if anything I saw proof to the contrary. I also can't find the link to the leaked scans again so I'm going off memory right now.

I don't think it matters that Gohan hasn't mastered Beast at all though since Goku hasn't mastered UI. I don't see any objective point to either character's favor with that fact, but I might be missing your point.

I don't think counting scratch lines means anything. Maybe it does but I thought if a character has a bruise or scratch line, that means they took damage and there's nothing more to look into there other than that fact.

I remember the Cell vs Trunks thing, but I thought the point was that Cell could also buff up his muscles and then he was stronger than Trunks? It wasn't that Trunks was stronger, it was that cell was strong enough without having to buff himself up like that so he could keep his speed, but if Cell wanted to, he could buff himself up and make himself stronger than Trunks. Because of that, I don't see what the point of that analogy is. Also, I don't think that Vegeta saying that Goku has more experience than Gohan means that he has less power than Gohan, that just seems like a stretch. You could just argue that he was pointing out why Gohan wasn't able to do as well in the fight as he thought, and I think Vegeta mentioned that Goku's UI is steering the battle in his favor so that would line up.

I appreciate you taking the time to make all of those analogies and points, but if anything I think you just made it more clear that we cannot prove that Gohan is stronger than Goku. I don't even know if we can prove that Gohan is stronger than Broly just from one page that shows him throwing Broly. Don't you think the evidence is lacking?

To be fair, if Vegeta had actually gotten a fight in this chapter, I would probably be trying to argue how he's just a strong as whoever the strongest is out of this chapter at least because I'm biased towards him, but I'm always trying to be objective and I feel like I can just see the pages for what they are more-so in this chapter because my interest is really only hooked when Vegeta gets a good amount of screen time.

Spoiler:

It was confirmed in the previous chapter 102. When Goku transformed into the Silver Haired UI against Gohan. Beerus asks Whis if UI is the best trick Goku got right now and Whis responds that it seems so. Keep in mind that Beerus's question would make zero sense if you ignore the other two variants of UI

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

The image doesn't show, but I get the point. The problem is we can't prove Whis even saw True UI. I'm looking at the end of the Granola arc and Whis shows up after the fight is over. We can't argue that Whis making that statement matters because we can't prove that he knows of True UI. Well I guess you can try to argue it, but it would be a very weak argument compared to some other very clear points.

[QuakingStar]

Spoiler:

Nope, Goku got two pieced and sent flying into the ground at an insane impact speed and the impact with the ground knocked him clean out of UI and we see this with him hitting the ground then immediately jumping upward whereas he is no longer in UI. Don't claim to be objective yet continue to make up that Goku put UI down from shock when that clearly has not happened the two times before when he was shocked. We already saw that shocks no longer change his mindset so no he did not drip UI of his own volition and him going back into it proves nothing. They can be knocked out of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue and get back into it as well. Gohan only started huffing and puffing after his power-up and after he managed to bypass Goku's speed and UI's ability, you can see the vein on Gohans forehead when he is using the higher level of power. Again nothing Goku did indicated he had more power than Gohan Beast when Gohan powered up, beforehand maybe. People keep confusing UI's auto ability to mean that the user has more power than their enemy when that;s just not true. In the fight vs Gohan and Broly Gohan swings Broly and lets him go flying into the tree and before and after that it was just blocking between them.

[Issei189]

So the chapter is out and it looks like Gohan Beast is on UI Goku's level. Its hard to say if he's stronger or not when Goku was briefly stated to have advantage over him because of his experience and Goku also ended their match quickly. Gohan Beast was only able to land hits on UI Goku when he tapped into his full power which allowed him to counter UI's evasiveness with his speed, but it seems like Gohan also can't maintain his full power in Beast. He can only use it in short brusts. It looks like the plan for Gohan's character is to master his Beast form.

[ZombieVito]

So the chapter is out and it looks like Gohan Beast is on UI Goku's level. Its hard to say if he's stronger or not when Goku was briefly stated to have advantage over him because of his experience and Goku also ended their match quickly. Gohan Beast was only able to land hits on UI Goku when he tapped into his full power which allowed him to counter UI's evasiveness with his speed, but it seems like Gohan also can't maintain his full power in Beast. He can only use it in short brusts. It looks like the plan for Gohan's character is to master his Beast form.

Only when he's calmed.

If he gets angry like he does in the chapter then he's way stronger. This also allows for Piccolo to rival Goku like Toriyama confirmed.

[QuakingStar]

I wonder if Toyo will finish doing what Toriyama was thinking about doing and give Gohan another new form or advancement to Beast? Toriyama seemed to be thinking of doing that but didn't know how to make it look.

[Yuji]

It looks like all 4 Saiyans are maybe comparable after all, perhaps with Gohan as the number one in brute strength alone, but nevertheless Goku and Vegeta make up the gap in experience and skill. From this chapter's showing Broly seems to be lagging behind all the other 3, as his raw strength was comparable, if not higher, than Gohan's, but Gohan's skill and control let him manhandle Broly later on in the fight (so no doubt, Goku and Vegeta would put up a comparable performance). We have yet to witness if this is really Broly's full power, as the full power green haired SS form seems to be absent from the manga, but considering how Cell Max was compared to Broly, his performance against Gohan makes more sense now.

The rest of the characters seem easy to place afterwards. Piccolo should be comparable to Goku and Vegeta but I doubt he could match Gohan in the same way as Goku did based on his performance against Cell, so I would wager he's more comparable to the Sign/Evolution forms as originally suspected. As for Freeza, very clearly he's top dog still.

1. Beerus
2. Freeza
3. Gohan
4. Goku
5. Vegeta
6. Broly
7. Granolah
8. Jiren
9. Piccolo
10. Hit/Boo

Seems to be the top 10 of the currently alive characters, barring fusions, non-Beerus GoDs and angels. I'm actually a bit unsure of how Broly/Granolah/Jiren all compare to each other (I actually wouldn't mind placing Granolah above Broly considering the wording of the wish and Broly's lackluster performance this chapter), but my top 5 is pretty solid. Vegetto/Gogeta Blue should be in a tier of their own, right next to or above Beerus himself.

[CortoMaltese]

The way Goku controled the end of the fight (while being distracted) contradict the fact Gohan is stronger.
Later, it's confirmed by Goku himself that he doesn't want to beat Gohan (implying he could ?).
Even after seeing the full power of his son.
After all, it's Dragon Ball, Goku has no problem to recognise when a guy is stronger than him like it was shown and said many time in DBZ and DBS.
Add the fact that Vegeta choose to use BLUE evolution to confront beast.
A form that he no longer used after unlocking UE against Granola and Gas.
It's just my impression, but i think Toyotaro hidden the actual full power of Goku and Vegeta (maybe to show this in the future arc).
I don't want to put gohan down, he's just incredible right now.

But i'd say Goku and Vegeta are overall stronger but hardly stronger (skills and experience helps).
Well, it's my humble opinion, not a universal truth.

[ZombieVito]

It looks like all 4 Saiyans are maybe comparable after all, perhaps with Gohan as the number one in brute strength alone, but nevertheless Goku and Vegeta make up the gap in experience and skill. From this chapter's showing Broly seems to be lagging behind all the other 3, as his raw strength was comparable, if not higher, than Gohan's, but Gohan's skill and control let him manhandle Broly later on in the fight (so no doubt, Goku and Vegeta would put up a comparable performance). We have yet to witness if this is really Broly's full power, as the full power green haired SS form seems to be absent from the manga, but considering how Cell Max was compared to Broly, his performance against Gohan makes more sense now.

The rest of the characters seem easy to place afterwards. Piccolo should be comparable to Goku and Vegeta but I doubt he could match Gohan in the same way as Goku did based on his performance against Cell, so I would wager he's more comparable to the Sign/Evolution forms as originally suspected. As for Freeza, very clearly he's top dog still.

1. Beerus
2. Freeza
3. Gohan
4. Goku
5. Vegeta
6. Broly
7. Granolah
8. Jiren
9. Piccolo
10. Hit/Boo

Seems to be the top 10 of the currently alive characters, barring fusions, non-Beerus GoDs and angels. I'm actually a bit unsure of how Broly/Granolah/Jiren all compare to each other (I actually wouldn't mind placing Granolah above Broly considering the wording of the wish and Broly's lackluster performance this chapter), but my top 5 is pretty solid. Vegetto/Gogeta Blue should be in a tier of their own, right next to or above Beerus himself.

If Piccolo is as strong as UI Sign or Evolution then he doesn't rival Goku like Toriyama said.

[Hugo Boss]

If Piccolo is as strong as UI Sign or Evolution then he doesn't rival Goku like Toriyama said.

That would depend on which version of Goku that Toriyama was talking about. Probably not the Goku that we saw on chapters #102 and #103. Maybe the UI Sign version from his fight against Gas?

[QuakingStar]

People keep forgetting that if you are not a great amount faster than somebody using UI they will dodge or block you and react to you fairly well. Also that literally A and B could have the same power level and same speed but if A has UI he will win thanks to UI's Auto ability. So in terms of power and speed Orange Piccolo could very well tie UI Goku but that's where it ends. Gohan still faces the risk of going Berserk when trying to access his highest levels of power so he stops right before Going berserk, Broly seems to no longer have that issue and has used his special SS without going berserk yet Gohan still managed to swing him and toss him right into the tree. We later see base goten and base Trunks fighting SS Broly so trying to say that Gohan Beast is SSBE level is just disingenuous at this point.

1. Black Frieza
2. Gohan Beast (Once he actually fully masters Beast and is able to use its true full power without going berserk I would put him higher.)
3. 1. UI Goku ~ 2. UE Vegeta ~ 3. SS Broly ~ Cell Max ~ 4. Orange Piccolo

[ZombieVito]

That would depend on which version of Goku that Toriyama was talking about. Probably not the Goku that we saw on chapters #102 and #103. Maybe the UI Sign version from his fight against Gas?

That doesn't work. If Piccolo is as strong as UI Sign then he really doesn't rival Goku.