Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

I don't know why people assume MUI Goku is stronger than a Goku and Vegeta fusion. In the story, it is stated that fusion alone is more capable than anything the singulars can do on their own. It's like saying SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Vegetto in the Majin Buu arc.

BTW, I know this counts for nothing what do those cards say concerning Broly, fusion and MUI?

Mostly because Ultra Instinct is very clearly NOT factored into the equation where Fusions are concerned. If it were, Vegito/Gogeta would be so absurdly strong that there should be no contest whatsoever between him and someone "merely" as strong or stronger than a God of Destruction like Broly. Base form Gogeta/Vegito is already clearly as strong as SSB, and then SSB is added on top of that.

Which makes sense. Goku can't tap into it at will, and it's not really a Saiyan-type power and thus wouldn't be part of the accessible repertoire of a Fusion with Vegeta; their combined potential likely wouldn't include something like that given its Angelic nature. Also, all supplementary media to the main series places Ultra Instinct Goku on, at a bear minimum, the same general level as SSB Fusions and often even stronger. Which makes sense as well given how powerful the technique is and how hyped up it was, as well as keeping Goku from accessing it just yet.

Basically, Ultra Instinct is the EXCEPTION to the rule of "Fusions being greater than their component fighters", because the state puts Goku at a level comparable to if not superior to SSB Fusion with his own power and is not counted in any of his Fusions' potential.

However, the narration already has fusion as the ultimate trump card. Not a singular Ultra Instinct. Freeza himself even called a Goku and Vegeta fusion "unfair." Which is true cause victory in DB is all about Ki size. This is why fusion is the chief of power. Until the plot changes in that department, the throne of fusion remain untouched so far.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't know why people assume MUI Goku is stronger than a Goku and Vegeta fusion. In the story, it is stated that fusion alone is more capable than anything the singulars can do on their own. It's like saying SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Vegetto in the Majin Buu arc.

BTW, I know this counts for nothing what do those cards say concerning Broly, fusion and MUI?

Mostly because Ultra Instinct is very clearly NOT factored into the equation where Fusions are concerned. If it were, Vegito/Gogeta would be so absurdly strong that there should be no contest whatsoever between him and someone "merely" as strong or stronger than a God of Destruction like Broly. Base form Gogeta/Vegito is already clearly as strong as SSB, and then SSB is added on top of that.

Which makes sense. Goku can't tap into it at will, and it's not really a Saiyan-type power and thus wouldn't be part of the accessible repertoire of a Fusion with Vegeta; their combined potential likely wouldn't include something like that given its Angelic nature. Also, all supplementary media to the main series places Ultra Instinct Goku on, at a bear minimum, the same general level as SSB Fusions and often even stronger. Which makes sense as well given how powerful the technique is and how hyped up it was, as well as keeping Goku from accessing it just yet.

Basically, Ultra Instinct is the EXCEPTION to the rule of "Fusions being greater than their component fighters", because the state puts Goku at a level comparable to if not superior to SSB Fusion with his own power and is not counted in any of his Fusions' potential.

However, the narration already has fusion as the ultimate trump card. Not a singular Ultra Instinct. Freeza himself even called a Goku and Vegeta fusion "unfair." Which is true cause victory in DB is all about Ki size. This is why fusion is the chief of power. Until the plot changes in that department, the throne of fusion remain untouched so far.

And Ultra Instinct wasn't mentioned because Goku can't tap into it at will, ergo a trump card that cannot be relied upon. If it were the inferior option, then the narrative would support it being shown up by SSB Fusion. Which it isn't. Instead, it's being kept to a "cannot be used yet" status, something that cannot be said of Fusion. Also, why does Freeza matter? Him saying it's unfair can just as easily be because there's another method by which Freeza has been left behind in the dust; we never actually get context for WHY he says it's unfair beyond the fact that it's in response to the merging and magnification of Goku and Vegeta's battle powers.

So where's your DEFINITIVE (i.e. outright stated and solidified by statements, scaling, and feats) proof that SSB Fusion is stronger than Ultra Instinct anyways? Everything else supports the notion the 2 are, at minimum, comparable power-ups with the edge often given to Ultra Instinct in the supplementary material due to how hard it is to achieve.

[Miracles]

Mostly because Ultra Instinct is very clearly NOT factored into the equation where Fusions are concerned. If it were, Vegito/Gogeta would be so absurdly strong that there should be no contest whatsoever between him and someone "merely" as strong or stronger than a God of Destruction like Broly. Base form Gogeta/Vegito is already clearly as strong as SSB, and then SSB is added on top of that.

Which makes sense. Goku can't tap into it at will, and it's not really a Saiyan-type power and thus wouldn't be part of the accessible repertoire of a Fusion with Vegeta; their combined potential likely wouldn't include something like that given its Angelic nature. Also, all supplementary media to the main series places Ultra Instinct Goku on, at a bear minimum, the same general level as SSB Fusions and often even stronger. Which makes sense as well given how powerful the technique is and how hyped up it was, as well as keeping Goku from accessing it just yet.

Basically, Ultra Instinct is the EXCEPTION to the rule of "Fusions being greater than their component fighters", because the state puts Goku at a level comparable to if not superior to SSB Fusion with his own power and is not counted in any of his Fusions' potential.

However, the narration already has fusion as the ultimate trump card. Not a singular Ultra Instinct. Freeza himself even called a Goku and Vegeta fusion "unfair." Which is true cause victory in DB is all about Ki size. This is why fusion is the chief of power. Until the plot changes in that department, the throne of fusion remain untouched so far.

And Ultra Instinct wasn't mentioned because Goku can't tap into it at will, ergo a trump card that cannot be relied upon. If it were the inferior option, then the narrative would support it being shown up by SSB Fusion. Which it isn't. Instead, it's being kept to a "cannot be used yet" status, something that cannot be said of Fusion. Also, why does Freeza matter? Him saying it's unfair can just as easily be because there's another method by which Freeza has been left behind in the dust; we never actually get context for WHY he says it's unfair beyond the fact that it's in response to the merging and magnification of Goku and Vegeta's battle powers.

So where's your DEFINITIVE (i.e. outright stated and solidified by statements, scaling, and feats) proof that SSB Fusion is stronger than Ultra Instinct anyways? Everything else supports the notion the 2 are, at minimum, comparable power-ups with the edge often given to Ultra Instinct in the supplementary material due to how hard it is to achieve.

Spoiler:

6. Fusion [#BO2#FUS]
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

UI not being able to be used at the moment doesn't prove superiority to fusion. Freeza saying fusion is unfair is because of the absurd power boost of fusion. Which is what grants victory in DB, Ki size. Fusion stacking both power levels of two of the strongest in the universe and then some is incredibly cheating.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And? You haven't provided evidence that this means anything right now, especially since Ultra Instinct has been CURRENTLY portrayed as an equal if not superior power to SSB Fusion.

CURRENT. CURRENTLY. Find something like that. What's been said NOW? Thus far, nothing I've seen convinces me that SSB Fusion is superior to Ultra Instinct based on feats, scaling, and portrayals from supplementary media. But let me guess.

"You're clearly just using your own headcanon and not paying attention to the actual canon facts. You're misinterpreting the truth."

Newsflash: things change. Remember when Potara Fusion was supposed to be permanent? Then Majin Buu had bad air. THEN it turns out that it worked differently for mortals. THEN it turned out that using too much power drained even this. Things change. And right now, Ultra Instinct looks to have bucked the idea of Fusion always being superior to anything its base components have. Not to mention that Goku can't utilize Ultra Instinct at will anyways, meaning it's not "technically" something that Fusion can spring off of since it's not something he's "technically" capable of.

[Miracles]

And? You haven't provided evidence that this means anything right now, especially since Ultra Instinct has been CURRENTLY portrayed as an equal if not superior power to SSB Fusion.

CURRENT. CURRENTLY. Find something like that. What's been said NOW? Thus far, nothing I've seen convinces me that SSB Fusion is superior to Ultra Instinct based on feats, scaling, and portrayals from supplementary media. But let me guess.

"You're clearly just using your own headcanon and not paying attention to the actual canon facts. You're misinterpreting the truth."

Newsflash: things change. Remember when Potara Fusion was supposed to be permanent? Then Majin Buu had bad air. THEN it turns out that it worked differently for mortals. THEN it turned out that using too much power drained even this. Things change. And right now, Ultra Instinct looks to have bucked the idea of Fusion always being superior to anything its base components have. Not to mention that Goku can't utilize Ultra Instinct at will anyways, meaning it's not "technically" something that Fusion can spring off of since it's not something he's "technically" capable of.

Except that narration about fusion has not changed. UI being portrayed as equal or greater than a Goku and Vegeta fusion is not fact either. That is something you just believe.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Then, with the very same concept about Fusion, I can say that the Universal Spirit Bomb was mentioned as the ultimate Trump Card (by Goku and Jiren and I don't remember if it has Hit or Beerus) in the ToP and it successfully defeated opponents that Fusion failed to kill (Zamasu, Buu), in an essence at least, meaning that Spirit Bomb>Fusion.

I can argue that a collection of countless energies, including extremely powerful individuals (ToP) is stronger than a simple merging of 2 individual powers. Not to mention that the fusion case only has to do with Goku and Vegeta, Kefla in a low standard, while other fusions in the media are seen loosing or not achieving their goal, while the Spirit Bomb has had nearly 99% success. Freeza didn't die cause, plot and Jiren tanked it cause power.

[Miracles]

In Toriyama's canon, fusion is more capable than anything the individuals can do. Majin Buu would of easily been dispatched had they used fusion. However, Goku and Vegeta didn't want to use it because it wouldn't be a challenge. A Genki Dama with the energy of the entire earth and some didn't compare to fusion in Toriyama's authoritative story

And Genki Trunks doing better than Vegetto is TOEI filler. The manga was in line with Toriyama's views about fusion. Having Vegetto completely dominate Zamasu. We also had Gogeta used as the final Trump against Broly whom Goku and Vegeta had no chance against. Genki Dama wasn't thought of but fusion against a powerhouse was. Fusions are used for opponents WAY out of Goku's league, not Genki dama's.

BTW Freeza survived a Genki dama with the power of Namek backing it, lol.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Cool bro. You got your headcanon (seriously, Toriyama's vision? get out with that sh*t), I got mine, and none of us are right because we interpret the facts differently.

If we can't even come to agreement on what the facts even are, there's no point to debate.

So anyways, Ikari Broly. Before he fought Goku, when he initially raged out against SSG Vegeta, how strong do you suppose he was? Was he as strong as SSG, or stronger? I've seen some back and forth on this matter.

[Koitsukai]

Well, Gogeta beat up Broly who might or might not be stronger than a hakaishin, while Jiren before the ToP already was, and MUI totally wrecked a stronger-than-GoD character who got even stronger and proceeded to beat him up even harder. So when comparing the statements about the enemies they fought, MUI comes out more qualified, so there you have a reason.

- Another reason could be that the dance fusion "is" for mortals, the potara fusion for Kaioshin while Ultra Instinct is for Hakaishin and taught by Angels.
- An in-universe reason could also be that fusions are not difficult to do, while UI is something that not even the Hakaishin can master after eons. So having the hardest technique to be weaker would make no sense.
- And if we want to go out-of-universe, then Toriyama chose UI instead of fusion for the greatest battle of the multiverse against a character without nothing but power, no development, no catchphrases, no personality, no nothing, just raw power.
- I can think of another one that involves SDBH so it doesn't mean much, but still, while not canon it involves the same company that produces the anime and the movies, and MUI is portrayed as being stronger than fusion. Also I believe in the manga something similar happens.

Also, Freeza said so before Base Gogeta, who wasn't that powerful so his comment had nothing to do with power.

[Koitsukai]

Cool bro. You got your headcanon (seriously, Toriyama's vision? get out with that sh*t), I got mine, and none of us are right because we interpret the facts differently.

If we can't even come to agreement on what the facts even are, there's no point to debate.

So anyways, Ikari Broly. Before he fought Goku, when he initially raged out against SSG Vegeta, how strong do you suppose he was? Was he as strong as SSG, or stronger? I've seen some back and forth on this matter.

IIRC, Grand Marshal did a nice post not too-long ago about that part of the fight. To me he was equally strong, not enough to beat him up, Vegeta blocked every attack, so maybe Broly was slightly stronger but failed to deliver due to not being a skilled fighter. God Goku managed to subdue him (through technique and experience IMO) for a while before Broly went blue tier, I believe Goku and Vegeta were in the same ballpark, they should be at least.
So, I'd say the definitely was not weaker than God Vegeta.

[Jack Bz]

I always saw ultra instinct as being meant to be in somewhat of a league of its own. It's the signature technique of the angels, the currently strongest known beings in the multiverse, and Goku managed to tap into the technique for all of 2 minutes. It's portrayed as pure and complete martial arts mastery. When I imagine a hypothetical Gogeta vs UI Goku battle, I feel like Gogeta would struggle to even hit Goku. I mean of course that's head canon, but not a totally baseless one.

[Miracles]

Battle power decides victory in DB [Toriyama said so]. The next villain is always stronger than the last [Toriyama said so]. This is the first time Goku and Vegeta used fusion in DB history against a singular in Broly. Fusion was always used for special opponents who are way out of Goku and Vegeta's league. Broly was compared to Goku's benchmark, Beerus AFTER the TOP. Where our protag's got stronger than their TOP versions. That is completely next lvel from Jiren being stronger than a singular god in the weaker Belmond. We all know past contenders fall by the wayside and ONLY Goku and Vegeta will be the strongest towards the end. As they finally try to fulfill Beeru's prophecy in defeating the STRONGEST in Beerus cause all others are weaker who fought a weaker Goku and Vegeta before him.

Face it Hit, Jiren, Broly all fall prey to being surpassed by Goku and Vegeta due to Toriyama's canon plot points of next villain being the strongest. Fusion was used to showcase how more powerful Broly was than Jiren. As well as specifically comparing Broly to Goku's goal in Beerus by name.

Facts.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, no, Kid Buu was not stronger than Buuhan, and Whis said Belmond defeated Beerus in a strenght contest and Beerus did not deny it, sorry.

Also, ToP Manga Roshi blatantly told Goku that battle power is not all that matters.

[Miracles]

Roshi's teaching was only part of Goku increasing his battle power. As we saw how UI raised Goku's battle power in order to fight Jiren.
Whis never confirmed Belmond defeated Beerus in a strength contest. Kid Buu was in the same arc as Buuhan who needed a fusion to compete against [Which shows again how Vegetto/Gogeta fusion is greater than a single Goku/Vegeta]. That's not next arc villain being above the last, Kid Buu > Cell is an example of that.

Toriyama's factual canoncial rules, lads.

[Koitsukai]

Actually, Whis said that Belmond was stronger than Beerus, Beerus was the one that said he only lost at an arm-wrestling match, trying to playing it down, which happens to be a physical strenght contest. I'll take the word of Whis over yours, mate.

And yes, if you are saying the next villain is stronger than the next as a narrative rule then you have to include every single Buu or you are just nitpicking, because otherwise your rule does not fully apply, it does at a superficial, truistic level: DBZ's final boss was not the strongest one, period.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Cool bro. You got your headcanon (seriously, Toriyama's vision? get out with that sh*t), I got mine, and none of us are right because we interpret the facts differently.

If we can't even come to agreement on what the facts even are, there's no point to debate.

So anyways, Ikari Broly. Before he fought Goku, when he initially raged out against SSG Vegeta, how strong do you suppose he was? Was he as strong as SSG, or stronger? I've seen some back and forth on this matter.

IIRC, Grand Marshal did a nice post not too-long ago about that part of the fight. To me he was equally strong, not enough to beat him up, Vegeta blocked every attack, so maybe Broly was slightly stronger but failed to deliver due to not being a skilled fighter. God Goku managed to subdue him (through technique and experience IMO) for a while before Broly went blue tier, I believe Goku and Vegeta were in the same ballpark, they should be at least.
So, I'd say the definitely was not weaker than God Vegeta.

Thanks Koitsukai for the reference. Indeed I made a post in the past. Basically Broly was already God Level, but he resorted in strength alone to fight. Without Vegeta being at full power, he was overwhelmed initially but was able to keep up. Against Goku he got even stronger, prompting the latter to use advanced techniques and when he saw that he was nearly equal to him, the battle was tough. But once Goku lost his footing and Broly ascended in the low Blue level territory, Kakarot couldn't win. But Broly reached his peak at that point, as not even a fully powered Blue was needed to put him down, causing Freeza to trigger SS.

Actually, Whis said that Belmond was stronger than Beerus, Beerus was the one that said he only lost at an arm-wrestling match, trying to playing it down, which happens to be a physical strenght contest. I'll take the word of Whis over yours, mate.

And yes, if you are saying the next villain is stronger than the next as a narrative rule then you have to include every single Buu or you are just nitpicking, because otherwise your rule does not fully apply, it does at a superficial, truistic level: DBZ's final boss was not the strongest one, period.

Yeah, I am not sure how much you can convince our friend here. So I suggest we move on, or we will repeat the "next villain>previous villain" discussion again and this time you will be the one who will try to post 10 posts to only get rejected. Truly I am trying to save your time.

On other things, what's your opinion about the Spirit Bomb? Can it surpass Fusions? Is it more efficient? More effective at least?

[Miracles]

Whis was corrected by Beerus. Hence why Whis never brought up his false statement again. Beerus was right and whis was wrong. The story also proves Whis wrong cause Beerus is Goku's goal, Goku already surpassed Belmond and Jiren in the TOP. Goku did not surpass Beerus yet, therefore Belmond and Jiren are weaker than Beerus. Then the next villain, stronger than Jiren gets to become the first singular to battle a fusion, getting compared to Goku's Benchmark Beerus. It's not the same with Kid Buu, who was in the same arc as Buuhan, it was all one arc. Not a new separate villain and story. You guys are mixing things up, trying to disprove Toriyama's story facts but nothing has changed.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Sure, you go on thinking that. We'll be here thinking our own interpretations of the truth of Toriyama's facts. Since you don't know what that man is thinking on a daily basis with regards to the franchise and neither do we, none of us have an ACTUAL read of what his vision is.

Anyways, with Ultra Instinct being distinctly separate from the potential that Fusions can draw from, I gotta wonder whether Goku will improve the state by taking it further on its own, or by improving himself in general.

[Koitsukai]

Cool bro. You got your headcanon (seriously, Toriyama's vision? get out with that sh*t), I got mine, and none of us are right because we interpret the facts differently.

If we can't even come to agreement on what the facts even are, there's no point to debate.

So anyways, Ikari Broly. Before he fought Goku, when he initially raged out against SSG Vegeta, how strong do you suppose he was? Was he as strong as SSG, or stronger? I've seen some back and forth on this matter.

IIRC, Grand Marshal did a nice post not too-long ago about that part of the fight. To me he was equally strong, not enough to beat him up, Vegeta blocked every attack, so maybe Broly was slightly stronger but failed to deliver due to not being a skilled fighter. God Goku managed to subdue him (through technique and experience IMO) for a while before Broly went blue tier, I believe Goku and Vegeta were in the same ballpark, they should be at least.
So, I'd say the definitely was not weaker than God Vegeta.

Thanks Koitsukai for the reference. Indeed I made a post in the past. Basically Broly was already God Level, but he resorted in strength alone to fight. Without Vegeta being at full power, he was overwhelmed initially but was able to keep up. Against Goku he got even stronger, prompting the latter to use advanced techniques and when he saw that he was nearly equal to him, the battle was tough. But once Goku lost his footing and Broly ascended in the low Blue level territory, Kakarot couldn't win. But Broly reached his peak at that point, as not even a fully powered Blue was needed to put him down, causing Freeza to trigger SS.

Actually, Whis said that Belmond was stronger than Beerus, Beerus was the one that said he only lost at an arm-wrestling match, trying to playing it down, which happens to be a physical strenght contest. I'll take the word of Whis over yours, mate.

And yes, if you are saying the next villain is stronger than the next as a narrative rule then you have to include every single Buu or you are just nitpicking, because otherwise your rule does not fully apply, it does at a superficial, truistic level: DBZ's final boss was not the strongest one, period.

Yeah, I am not sure how much you can convince our friend here. So I suggest we move on, or we will repeat the "next villain>previous villain" discussion again and this time you will be the one who will try to post 10 posts to only get rejected. Truly I am trying to save your time.

On other things, what's your opinion about the Spirit Bomb? Can it surpass Fusions? Is it more efficient? More effective at least?

Yeah, you are right, some headcanons are stronger than a fusion using MUI, at least we aren't as arrogant while sharing ours.

About the Genki Dama, in GT it did leave in the dust the SS4 fusion, it dealt the damage Gogeta couldn't with his strongest attack, who was about to spam his BBKHH in order to achieve the same as the genki dama. Maybe he would've failed, maybe not but needed to use it at least twice.
In Z is murkier, because the final boss that received it was not the strongest one possible but erased every trace of Buu. In Super it seemed much more efficient, also Goku was extremely confident against Jiren when he decided to go for it, even after the beating he took.

I still haven't seen a fusion literally one-shot an enemy like the genki dama does. Which makes sense, it takes a lot to create one, so it is just logical for the payoff to be huge.

[Miracles]

Genki Dama has never been shown to be as strong or greater than fusions... Freeza survived it with the power of Namek [Can't remember if Goku absorbed energy from neighboring planets too?]. Kid Buu was able to overcome it for a bit.
Future Trunks with an attack "like" the Genki overpowered Zamas. However, we know his body was breaking down. He wasn't at optimum level. Not a good gauge for the genki.
Then Goku gets the Spirit bomb overpowered by Jiren. He even used that energy and still couldn't beat Jiren with UI.
Enters Kefla, her SSJ1 power was equal to the Genki dama. Yet that wasn't even her full power.

Fusions were used to fight the stronger opponents way out of Goku's pay grade. Buuhan, Broly, etc. Fusions have been Toriyama's ultimate last resort as shown in his films.

BTW fellas, we all know Goku mastering UI in the Moro arc will be a stronger UI than the one Jiren fought. This is a Goku that's TWO arcs in from the TOP. We also have Yardrat Vegeta that will most likely be around UI Goku's level too. We all know Moro would waste the last villains too with his ability to absorb having powers already greater than Blue levels. This is showcasing the next villain >the last villain DB narrative again. This is all happening while Beerus prophecy about Goku and Vegeta growing to be stronger in order to fight him has not been fulfilled yet. Beerus is still king of the hill while Goku and Vegeta grow more and more powerful, leaving the previous enemies in the dust in order to combat Beerus. This is all based on plot facts.

Lets Go Moro!