Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Goku was pretty clearly getting stronger throughout this episode, just like in Round 1 and his fight with Kafla. He started at a slight strength disadvantage, matched Jiren, then surpassed him right at the end before finally perfecting it. I'd say it's probably something like this:

UI Goku: 500(?)
UIO Goku at the end of 129: 375
Jiren: 350
UIO Goku in the middle of 129: 375 (350 in strength)
UIO Goku at the end of 116 and 128: 375 (310 in strength)
SS2 Kafla: 300
UIO Goku at the end of 110 and 115: 375 (270 in strength)
UIO Goku initially: 375 (250 in strength)

[ZombieVito]

So ideally it should go like this right

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku > Jiren (up till now) > Ultra Instinct Goku > Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta > Any God of Destruction

Source?

Not even UIO Goku was stated to be over the Gods of Destruction.

[Miracles]

That isn't an indication of strength since that is really vague. For example, Quitela could mean that Beerus is too stubborn to stay down. And Quitela's words doesn't even relate to Belmound.

You're missing the context. Quitela stated before that it's time to settle just who the strongest god is to Beerus. And at the end of the exhibition match Quitela states he knew it would come down to Beerus and him to "finally settle this." No way is Quitela talking about Beerus's personality.

But is literally your assumption of the scene in play here since nothing suggested that Belmound played dead because he couldn't hang wth Quitela and Beerus.

The text outright states, the title to see whose strongest is between Beerus and Quitela. It was stated and shown no one can hang with em.

[Miracles]

BTW peoples, this episode basically puts to rest whether or not Kefla was stronger than former UI. Whis just confirmed, that she was, by stating every time Goku went UI he broke his limits even further. In other words, he got stronger and stronger.

[AvatarReiko]

So the NEP sort of implies that Jiren still has not gone all out. How much power has this guy been holding back.p. Every time the show tells us he is going full strength, it is the then revelaed that he has more

[dragon boss z]

So the NEP sort of implies that Jiren still has not gone all out. How much power has this guy been holding back.p. Every time the show tells us he is going full strength, it is the then revelaed that he has more

He is causing himself and his entire universe to be erased, lmao.

[Bullza]

Not even UIO Goku was stated to be over the Gods of Destruction.

But Vegeta was said to be because it was in the title of the episode and Omen was clearly better than that.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm not understanding how people use the logic that unless a direct comparison is made, then no one can say that anyone is stronger than the Gods of Destruction.

Such statements were made anyway, but most of the time they're twisted or ignored like they don't exist and a direct comparison was never a criteria for anything. Whis and Raditz were never specifically compared, so the argument that Whis is stronger than Raditz is baseless. That's literally how dishonest most of the arguments that advocate for the Gods of Destruction are.

We already know that UI Goku is far, far stronger than the Gods, yet nothing whatsoever resembling a power statement was made comparing them in the show itself.

We know that Vegeta can beat a God of Destruction and we know that UI Omen is inconceivably superior to that. And nowhere was it stated that UI Omen Goku was weaker than the Gods of Destruction. This is just some bizarre idea that fans conjured up during this episode.

[DBZ Macky]

We know that Vegeta can beat a God of Destruction and we know that UI Omen is inconceivably superior to that.

See, that's the thing though. Vegeta can beat a God of Destruction but Beerus has shown himself to be capable of defeating multiple GoDs in the Manga.
So it's very possible that:

Sidra, Rumsshi ,etc. < SSB&Beyond Vegeta < UI Omen Goku < Beerus <= The GoD that defeated Beerus < Jiren <= Silver UI Goku

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Jiren caught on to how Ultra Instinct Omen Goku moves and fights, and he prepared himself accordingly.

This is why he managed to put pressure on him. Even with the speed of instantaneous dodging and blocking, Goku's offense wasn't up to snuff and he couldn't land any decisive blows.

Until Goku completed the Ultra Instinct, that is. With this power mastered, Goku effortlessly countered Jiren's blows and landed several solid blows; a focus only on the fight itself. This is the height of martial arts prowess, folks.

[Zamasu55]

So, Jiren in the end was stronger than UI Omen Goku.

[Zamasu55]

Surely, Gods of Destruction are now worthless.

[Legion]

I think that some people here should learn the definition of "worthless" or "fodder".

Anyway, episode 129 is clear imo, unless some stupid plot twist by Toei

Angels>MUI Goku>Jiren>Gods>Vegeta>the rest

[Xeogran]

Gods>Vegeta

I would change this. Vegeta surpassing GoD Toppo pretty much puts him on par with GoDs. With some motivation he could definitely win a 1v1 fight now.

[Legion]

Gods>Vegeta

I would change this. Vegeta surpassing GoD Toppo pretty much puts him on par with GoDs. With some motivation he could definitely win a 1v1 fight now.

I believe that Toppo and Vegeta are both low God tier. They are stronger than the weakest Gods, probably.

[Pannaliciour]

So ideally it should go like this right

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku > Jiren (up till now) > Ultra Instinct Goku > Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta > Any God of Destruction

Source?

Not even UIO Goku was stated to be over the Gods of Destruction.

Not even ssj was stated to be above kaioken ( in Z) your point is?

There is a mortal a GoD of his universe can't defeat but is stronger then Beerus. Goku beeing on par with Jiren or stronger means he is above Beerus simple as that.

Btw Whis said he might even above GoD back in episode 109 110 (he was supressed)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With Jiren looking to FULLY ALL-OUT in the next episode(you can tell this is true because HIS SHIRT IS GONE) and still giving Complete Ultra Instinct Goku something of a fight, I think we'll finally know where the two of them stand.

Of course, with the way all the Hakaishin stood up when Goku completed the Ultra Instinct, I think that's more than enough symbolic proof to show that Goku has attained a state that's beyond even them.

I have no doubts that they'll show that Jiren is above the Hakaishin for him to be able to stand up to Complete Ultra Instinct, but by how much is the real question.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

With Jiren looking to FULLY ALL-OUT in the next episode(you can tell this is true because HIS SHIRT IS GONE) and still giving Complete Ultra Instinct Goku something of a fight, I think we'll finally know where the two of them stand.

Of course, with the way all the Hakaishin stood up when Goku completed the Ultra Instinct, I think that's more than enough symbolic proof to show that Goku has attained a state that's beyond even them.

I have no doubts that they'll show that Jiren is above the Hakaishin for him to be able to stand up to Complete Ultra Instinct, but by how much is the real question.

Yep. Good post. Agreed.

I actually think that Goku vs Jiren is going to be our modern day classic of Goku vs Frieza on Namek though: )

Frieza was clearly getting outclassed but still always kind of there

In the preview for 130, Jiren looks like he's losing it, while Goku looks cool calm and collected

I think we are going to see MUI Goku humble Jiren's cockiness a bit before Jiren does something to close the gap : )

But I think there will still be a noticeable gap remaining there after

I think the biggest limiting factor will be time. I really feel Goku vs Jiren is our modern day classic version of Goku vs Frieza on Namek

[BlueBasilisk]

My memory is a little foggy, but wasn't something said about surpassing 'the state of god' in this episode? I seem to recall speculation that Jiren might also have surpassed 'the state of god' in a previous episode.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My memory is a little foggy, but wasn't something said about surpassing 'the state of god' in this episode? I seem to recall speculation that Jiren might also have surpassed 'the state of god' in a previous episode.

Indeed. Whis was the one who mused on the idea, when Jiren was easily pushing back the Genkidama in episode 109.

It seems as though this will turn out to be true, especially since Jiren needs to pull out all the stops if he's gonna be able to hold his own against martial arts perfection.