Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[CortoMaltese]

For those who want to know the power level of the movie, we have some answers with the New "wafers".
Piccolo has 5000 (far weaker than C17 during TOP 6500-7000).
Gohan ultimate 7600 (weaker than Goku ssgod 7700-7800).
So Gohan still far from blue tier and Piccolo still weak sadly...

https://mobile.twitter.com/DBSChronicle ... wtr%5Etrue

[Krillin1994]

Unsure if theres ever been any wiggle room for interpretation of the Frieza power level line from the film.


But what if he meant his power level is 1.3 mil times greater than before.

[Hugo Boss]

*snip*

Nice catch. Is there a link to the whole set? Sometimes the numbers are altered when they update the sets.

Unsure if theres ever been any wiggle room for interpretation of the Frieza power level line from the film.

But what if he meant his power level is 1.3 mil times greater than before.

He just says that, by his estimation, after dedicating 4 months to training, he would acquire a battle power of 1.3 million. No further details, so that implication is unlikely.

[dragonball0900]

For those who want to know the power level of the movie, we have some answers with the New "wafers".
Piccolo has 5000 (far weaker than C17 during TOP 6500-7000).
Gohan ultimate 7600 (weaker than Goku ssgod 7700-7800).
So Gohan still far from blue tier and Piccolo still weak sadly...

https://mobile.twitter.com/DBSChronicle ... wtr%5Etrue

I wouldn't trust these that much.

We know they don't make sense most of the time. These have Anilaza weaker than Golden Frieza if I remember correctly.

We also shouldn't compare different sets. Otherwise, Buu Saga characters like SSJ Vegito would be ToP SSB tier.

These numbers also seem nearly the same as in the ToP, which would make zero sense since both are supposed to be way stronger than before.

[Hugo Boss]

I wouldn't trust these that much.

We know they don't make sense most of the time. These have Anilaza weaker than Golden Frieza if I remember correctly.

There are certainly some questionable numbers, but I wouldn’t say they don’t make sense most of the time. Out of 20 pieces for set, you usually see 1 or 2 at most that would require revision.

We also shouldn't compare different sets. Otherwise, Buu Saga characters like SSJ Vegito would be ToP SSB tier.

SS Vegetto last number was 7,500, which is below SSGod Goku (7,700) and -Super Hero- Ultimate Gohan (7,600). They are always been revised and updated.

These numbers also seem nearly the same as in the ToP, which would make zero sense since both are supposed to be way stronger than before.

The number doesn’t increase unless there is a huge power-up. SS2, for example, usually has the same number for all the Saiyans (5,700~5,800) no matter which arc is from. So, in this case Piccolo and Gohan should be relative to their ToP selves, as we don’t know if they are much stronger or not.

By the way, Piccolo is being recently paired with SS Goku (5,000), while in Cell Arc his number was 4,500, and Ultimate Gohan has been increasing from 7,200 to 7,400 and then to 7,600. So, it seems to be acknowledging an evolution from the set released on 2021.

Also, it seems there is some level of communication between the staff that publishes news on Dragon Ball Official Site and the ones that make the stickers. Nice they are doing this contextualization.

[ZombieVito]

SS tier is what I would put Piccolo at the bare minimum after his training in the Moro arc.

He probably beats Frost now.

[dragonball0900]

I wouldn't trust these that much.

We know they don't make sense most of the time. These have Anilaza weaker than Golden Frieza if I remember correctly.

There are certainly some questionable numbers, but I wouldn’t say they don’t make sense most of the time. Out of 20 pieces for set, you usually see 1 or 2 at most that would require revision.

We also shouldn't compare different sets. Otherwise, Buu Saga characters like SSJ Vegito would be ToP SSB tier.

SS Vegetto last number was 7,500, which is below SSGod Goku (7,700) and -Super Hero- Ultimate Gohan (7,600). They are always been revised and updated.

These numbers also seem nearly the same as in the ToP, which would make zero sense since both are supposed to be way stronger than before.

The number doesn’t increase unless there is a huge power-up. SS2, for example, usually has the same number for all the Saiyans (5,700~5,800) no matter which arc is from. So, in this case Piccolo and Gohan should be relative to their ToP selves, as we don’t know if they are much stronger or not.

By the way, Piccolo is being recently paired with SS Goku (5,000), while in Cell Arc his number was 4,500, and Ultimate Gohan has been increasing from 7,200 to 7,400 and then to 7,600. So, it seems to be acknowledging an evolution from the set released on 2021.

Also, it seems there is some level of communication between the staff that publishes news on Dragon Ball Official Site and the ones that make the stickers. Nice they are doing this contextualization.

Which volume has Vegito as 7,500 may I ask? The number I have from Vegito is 9,000 with Buuhan at 8,100.

ToP Gohan is also placed below SSG, which doesn't make sense since both anime and manga place him near SSB tier.

There's also Cooler's 5th form's card which surpasses Cell Games SSJ Goku's card and some ToP characters.

These cards might be official, but I doubt we really need to take them that seriously. These were probably just made for fun and nothing else.

[Hugo Boss]

Which volume has Vegito as 7,500 may I ask? The number I have from Vegito is 9,000 with Buuhan at 8,100.

Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafer Z: Super Decisive Battle of Strong People

ToP Gohan is also placed below SSG, which doesn't make sense since both anime and manga place him near SSB tier.

Hmmm, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Whenever Gohan fought a Blue tier character he was always on the loosing end - Goku, Freeza, Toppo etc. I have him more or less on SSGod vicinity as the sticker suggest.

There's also Cooler's 5th form's card which surpasses Cell Games SSJ Goku's card and some ToP characters.

Again, this goes back to what I said before. In each set, I’ve always seen an odd placement, but there are a lot that are consistent among themselves.

These cards might be official, but I doubt we really need to take them that seriously. These were probably just made for fun and nothing else.

Don’t misunderstand, all this stuff and this thread is for fun. It was never supposed to be taken seriously. It’s just the closest to official Dragon Ball Super’s powerscalling has ever had, considering its several inconsistencies.

[Goku9001]

I'm not sure about that. ToP Gohan was consistently performing on an equal level against characters that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta were clearly struggling against. His performance against Toppo and Dyspo in particular placed him on an equal level as both Frieza and Android 17 who were struggling quite a bit in fighting them. Against Goku, he forced Goku's hand by having to use Kaioken and against Frieza, he was literally trying to conserve energy and was playing along with Frieza's plan.

In the manga, Gohan was definitively above Frieza and SSJB Goku no question about that.

[ZombieVito]

I'm not sure about that. ToP Gohan was consistently performing on an equal level against characters that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta were clearly struggling against. His performance against Toppo and Dyspo in particular placed him on an equal level as both Frieza and Android 17 who were struggling quite a bit in fighting them. Against Goku, he forced Goku's hand by having to use Kaioken and against Frieza, he was literally trying to conserve energy and was playing along with Frieza's plan.

In the manga, Gohan was definitively above Frieza and SSJB Goku no question about that.

Gohan is weaker than Freeza since the later was stated to be equal to SSB Goku.

[CortoMaltese]

I'm not sure about that. ToP Gohan was consistently performing on an equal level against characters that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta were clearly struggling against. His performance against Toppo and Dyspo in particular placed him on an equal level as both Frieza and Android 17 who were struggling quite a bit in fighting them. Against Goku, he forced Goku's hand by having to use Kaioken and against Frieza, he was literally trying to conserve energy and was playing along with Frieza's plan.

In the manga, Gohan was definitively above Frieza and SSJB Goku no question about that.

In the Anime, Gohan was unable to damage Toppo even with a full kamehameha.
Clearly Gohan + C17 together were far weaker than Toppo.
If we compare the same fight with Vegeta Blue, it's pretty clear Gohan isn't blue tier.
Against Dyspo, the fight is against a restrained opponent that can't use his major strength (his speed). Without it Dyspo's power isn't that great.

In the Manga, Krilin imply Gohan isn't Blue tier because he think he can surpass Goku with more training.
And against Saganbo he was useless.
The same Saganbo that was an ant against Goku Blue.
Sooooooo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Didn’t Goku need to use Kaio-Ken against Toppo in the Exhibition Match? I always thought Toppo and Vegeta (who trained in the Rosat right before the tournament) were solidly above Goku without the Kaio-Ken, and Gohan is on Goku’s level.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Didn’t Goku need to use Kaio-Ken against Toppo in the Exhibition Match? I always thought Toppo and Vegeta (who trained in the Rosat right before the tournament) were solidly above Goku without the Kaio-Ken, and Gohan is on Goku’s level.

He was prepared to, but they didn't get far enough along to really see it play out fully.

Besides that, the Tournament of Power was fairly consistent in portraying Toppo, Golden Freeza, and SSB Goku and Vegeta as all pretty much the same strength in both mediums in these specific states. Unlike other fighters like Gohan and 17, they were all very much directly stated and shown to be on fairly even footing in terms of overall power.

[dragonball0900]

Which volume has Vegito as 7,500 may I ask? The number I have from Vegito is 9,000 with Buuhan at 8,100.

Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafer Z: Super Decisive Battle of Strong People

ToP Gohan is also placed below SSG, which doesn't make sense since both anime and manga place him near SSB tier.

Hmmm, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Whenever Gohan fought a Blue tier character he was always on the loosing end - Goku, Freeza, Toppo etc. I have him more or less on SSGod vicinity as the sticker suggest.

There's also Cooler's 5th form's card which surpasses Cell Games SSJ Goku's card and some ToP characters.

Again, this goes back to what I said before. In each set, I’ve always seen an odd placement, but there are a lot that are consistent among themselves.

These cards might be official, but I doubt we really need to take them that seriously. These were probably just made for fun and nothing else.

Don’t misunderstand, all this stuff and this thread is for fun. It was never supposed to be taken seriously. It’s just the closest to official Dragon Ball Super’s powerscalling has ever had, considering its several inconsistencies.

I'm checking every set of cards and doing a list of all of them grouped in each set. I'll post it soon when I have the chance, and see how much sense these numbers make.

I still totally disagree about Gohan though. He was clearly stated not to be that far behind SSB Goku. He is not as strong as him, but his power is enough to at least be around that tier. The narrator even said that his power was close to Goku's. There's no way Gohan is just SSG tier. And if we take the Moro Saga into account, Gohan got considerably stronger to the point Goku could not recognize him. There's no way Gohan is still as weak as a SSG, which is 50 times weaker than a SSB.

Same with Piccolo. There's no way that he is still mere SSJ tier after his Moro Saga training.

[Hugo Boss]

As a general note, Goku’s blue form got stronger during the recruitment episodes, he even trained with Whis in the gravity chamber, and despite that he was doing just fine against Toppo. Gohan’s ultimate form and No.17 together still weren’t quite on that level, as Toppo was single handily fighting them with relative ease. So, assuming one of them is somewhat comparable to SSB Goku is quite generous, to be honest.

[…]
And if we take the Moro Saga into account, Gohan got considerably stronger to the point Goku could not recognize him. There's no way Gohan is still as weak as a SSG, which is 50 times weaker than a SSB.

Same with Piccolo. There's no way that he is still mere SSJ tier after his Moro Saga training.

Worth mentioning the stickers aren’t conveying any event from Moro and Granolah arcs. So we should probably consider them until Broly’s movie.

[Koitsukai]

For the ToP anime, I cannot really see Gohan as a SSB level fighter, not after having so much trouble with Toppo, even with the help of 17. Golden Freeza also easily put him down in that fake bout, but I wouldn't put him on SSG level either. He seems closer to blue than to god, but still not on equal footing to a blue tier fighter. 17 also seems to be on that tier, a step or two below SSB.

The manga, by the Moro arc has him below current SSB level but above ToP SSB level, which I think he already was at. It wasn't really clear where Kefla stood, but I think it's safe to say she was at least mid-blue level.

[dragonball0900]

As a general note, Goku’s blue form got stronger during the recruitment episodes, he even trained with Whis in the gravity chamber, and despite that he was doing just fine against Toppo. Gohan’s ultimate form and No.17 together still weren’t quite on that level, as Toppo was single handily fighting them with relative ease. So, assuming one of them is somewhat comparable to SSB Goku is quite generous, to be honest.

I agree Gohan isn't exactly near Blue level, and I agree that his fight with Toppo shows exactly that.

However, he is certainly not God/SSG level at all. Remember that there's quite a huge gap between SSG and SSB. The fact that he was still considered to rival Goku's blue level (it doesn't even matter if Goku got stronger in the tournament) means Gohan should have at least far surpassed the red SSG form.

Gohan also fought those U3 robots equally, who were stated that they could make SSB Goku and Vegeta spend some energy (despite those two being stronger). Someone that is weaker than even SSG tier being able to hold his own against robots that could give SSB fighters a run for their money would not make sense.

Worth mentioning the stickers aren’t conveying any event from Moro and Granolah arcs. So we should probably consider them until Broly’s movie.

I was mostly referring to the people above that were taking the Moro Saga into account, and how the OG post featured cards from the new movie and said Piccolo was still weak and that Gohan is weaker than God tier, both of which I totally disagree with based on what the Moro Saga actually said and showed about their power levels.

[Goku9001]

In the Anime, Gohan was unable to damage Toppo even with a full kamehameha.
Clearly Gohan + C17 together were far weaker than Toppo.
If we compare the same fight with Vegeta Blue, it's pretty clear Gohan isn't blue tier.
Against Dyspo, the fight is against a restrained opponent that can't use his major strength (his speed). Without it Dyspo's power isn't that great.

In the Manga, Krilin imply Gohan isn't Blue tier because he think he can surpass Goku with more training.
And against Saganbo he was useless.
The same Saganbo that was an ant against Goku Blue.
Sooooooo.

You could argue that Gohan and Android 17 weren't Blue level towards the end of the Tournament of Power considering Goku and Vegeta's power kept rising significantly but they definitely were Blue level towards the beginning of the tournament. Their battles against Goku prior to the tournament establishes that, in addition to Gohan's performance against the U3 fighters.

Goku needed Kaioken to fight Toppo so it's a moot point. SSJB Vegeta could have simply been stronger than SSJB Goku was all things considered. Likewise, Gohan literally managed to tag Dyspo just as Frieza's energy field dissipated. Therefore, Gohan reacted to Light Speed Dyspo's full speed and managed to restrain him.

In the manga, I'm clearly suggesting that ToP Gohan was above ToP SSJB Goku. Moro SSJB Goku let alone Current SSJB Goku obviously demolishes Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

I was mostly referring to the people above that were taking the Moro Saga into account, and how the OG post featured cards from the new movie and said Piccolo was still weak and that Gohan is weaker than God tier, both of which I totally disagree with based on what the Moro Saga actually said and showed about their power levels.

We don’t know when Super movie #2 takes place in the history or if it even considers Moro and Granolah Arc events.

Everything considered, I’m still not convinced that Gohan’s ultimate form is in any way comparable to SSB tier. SSGod is also said to rival Gods of Destruction and there is still such a large gap. I would say more like Gohan is SSGod level, possibly above, but not close to SSBlue.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, the other day I found this line on Herms’ Fact Checker about 1st form Freeza, which may also clarify how strong 4th form Freeza is exactly. Figuring out how much above the Boo Saga top tiers Goku and co. have become is one of the toughest things about DBS for me (specially in the manga), and I think this helps a lot.

Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”
Significance: This line originally appeared in Toriyama’s script for RF, as printed in Volume “F”, but it was ultimately cut from the movie (the finished film contains no explanation for why Boo didn’t take part in the battle). However, the second chapter of Toyotaro’s manga adaptation of RF retained the line, and now Super has done the same. Super also adds in the explanation that shaking/hitting/tickling Boo doesn’t work, and even includes a brief shot of him sleeping over at Mr. Satan’s house.

This line was in AT’s script, so it probably fits for all mediums. Mr. Boo supposedly could’ve been enough to defeat at least 1st form Freeza and would’ve been a more valuable fighter than Gohan. Apply that +200x gap between 1st and 4th form Freeza and you find how strong Base Goku was in RoF. This might not work in the anime with Tagoma possibly being Ultimate Gohan level, but I think it definitely clarifies things for the manga at least.

Thoughts?