Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

Since Hakaishin Toppo was a part of the anime, I suppose Toppo would be stronger than the Gammas assuming that the Gammas were intended to be on par with the Blue Saiyans within the movie. It's strange because the anime has KKx20 Blue and Blue Evolved which should naturally be considered in comparisons involving Super Hero. The movies don't seem to acknowledge those forms in Broly. If we include Hakaishin Toppo within the tier list, he could very well be on top.

SSJR Goku Black honestly has no business being in this tier list. It's apparent in both the anime and manga that Toriyama intended for the Blue Saiyans to greatly surpass SSJR Goku Black based on their battles with Merged Zamasu alone. The anime has the Blue tier fighters growing stronger over the course of the tournament which greatly widened the gap.

Piccolo did claim that the Gammas "seem to be on par" with Goku and Vegeta so they don't have to be equals. With the Gammas being presented as being above Android 17, it leaves little room for them to be noticeably below Goku and Vegeta. For all intents and purposes, they should be around the same level. However, because Orange Piccolo is said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta by Toriyama, I always figured that Orange Piccolo was on par with the SH Blue Saiyans whereas the Gammas may only be on par with the ToP Blue Saiyans or Broly Blue Saiyans as the last time Piccolo has seen them was in Broly.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So I’d say they’re at least on pair with Toppo and Gohan is at least on pair with Goku (Start of ToP). I prefer to put everyone up there with current SSJB to have everyone on the same level.

Gohan and Android 17 were shown to be inferior to Toppo. Not enough so they couldn't hold their own but clearly a step behind whereas Toppo was on the same level as Goku and Vegeta.

And the Gammas are also superior to 17. If Toppo is just a step above 17, then the Gammas are on his level.

[ZombieVito]

Going by the anime and movies, how would rank these characters from strongest to weakest as of Super Hero?

Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Ultimate Gohan
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17
Hit
Toppo
Golden Frieza
Wrathful Broly
Gamma 1/2

SSB Goku | Golden Freeza
Ultimate Gohan
Gamma 1/2
Wrathful Broly
Ultimate Piccolo
SSR Trunks
SSR Black
Toppo
Hit
17

[Koitsukai]

SSJR Goku Black honestly has no business being in this tier list. It's apparent in both the anime and manga that Toriyama intended for the Blue Saiyans to greatly surpass SSJR Goku Black based on their battles with Merged Zamasu alone. The anime has the Blue tier fighters growing stronger over the course of the tournament which greatly widened the gap.

Yeah, aside of how rusty Goku was after the Zamaru arc, -even though he was involved in a double KO with Shin Golden Freeza right before the ToP began- Goku grew significantly stronger during the ToP, whether people want to acknowledge that or not, what happened, happened.
He held his own as a regular SSB vs the guy that had crushed his bones while using KKx20 moments before. How much stronger is anybody's guess, but strong enough to make the previous arc's non-fused characters irrelevant.

[ZombieVito]

SSJR Goku Black honestly has no business being in this tier list. It's apparent in both the anime and manga that Toriyama intended for the Blue Saiyans to greatly surpass SSJR Goku Black based on their battles with Merged Zamasu alone. The anime has the Blue tier fighters growing stronger over the course of the tournament which greatly widened the gap.

Yeah, aside of how rusty Goku was after the Zamaru arc, -even though he was involved in a double KO with Shin Golden Freeza right before the ToP began- Goku grew significantly stronger during the ToP, whether people want to acknowledge that or not, what happened, happened.
He held his own as a regular SSB vs the guy that had crushed his bones while using KKx20 moments before. How much stronger is anybody's guess, but strong enough to make the previous arc's non-fused characters irrelevant.

He should have a place if base Topo, Hit and 17 are on the list.

[Kazuya Mishima]

And the Gammas are also superior to 17. If Toppo is just a step above 17, then the Gammas are on his level.

Well maybe it's closer to being a giant step of anything.

Ultimate Gohan blasted Toppo with a Kamehameha full on and he was barely fazed by it. Pretty sure he kind of mocked him to be honest.

Android 17 also kinda ran from Toppo and then just tried to keep him at a distance rather than fight him head on.

If Gohan in Super Hero is no different from how he was in the Tournament of Power then the Gamma androids together could probably struggle against Toppo.

[Kazuya Mishima]

He held his own as a regular SSB vs the guy that had crushed his bones while using KKx20 moments before. How much stronger is anybody's guess, but strong enough to make the previous arc's non-fused characters irrelevant.

He only held his own because he resorted to different tactics. With Kaio-ken x20 he charged in like a bull and was took by surprise.

He opted for more strategy later on. It's not much different from Base Goku holding his own against Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla when earlier they were on par with the same form. It was just "tactics".

Otherwise Goku was still no stronger than Vegeta who was still shown to be on the same level as Toppo just as Goku was in the Zen Exhibition.

[Goku9001]

SSJR Goku Black honestly has no business being in this tier list. It's apparent in both the anime and manga that Toriyama intended for the Blue Saiyans to greatly surpass SSJR Goku Black based on their battles with Merged Zamasu alone. The anime has the Blue tier fighters growing stronger over the course of the tournament which greatly widened the gap.

Yeah, aside of how rusty Goku was after the Zamaru arc, -even though he was involved in a double KO with Shin Golden Freeza right before the ToP began- Goku grew significantly stronger during the ToP, whether people want to acknowledge that or not, what happened, happened.
He held his own as a regular SSB vs the guy that had crushed his bones while using KKx20 moments before. How much stronger is anybody's guess, but strong enough to make the previous arc's non-fused characters irrelevant.

He should have a place if base Topo, Hit and 17 are on the list.

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

[Hugo Boss]

This is how Bandai is powerscalling Gammas, including Gamma #2 ultimate move. What do you think about it?

Looking at their GT numbers, they are… weird. Seems like they are twisted, only one making sense is Pan. Someone messed up there. The pecking order probably would be SS3 Goku (7,000), Rild (5,900), Baby (3,800), Trunks (3,000) and Pan (2,700).

[Thani]

This is how Bandai is powerscalling Gammas, including Gamma #2 ultimate move. What do you think about it?

Looking at their GT numbers, they are… weird. Seems like they are twisted, only one making sense is Pan. Someone messed up there. The pecking order probably would be SS3 Goku (7,000), Rild (5,900), Baby (3,800), Trunks (3,000) and Pan (2,700).

lol at Beast Gohan being weaker than Kefla, I love it and hope it's canon

Rild being stronger than SS3 Goku (GT) is indeed VERY weird... and they both have no business being this close to the god forms, IMO.

[QuakingStar]

This is how Bandai is powerscalling Gammas, including Gamma #2 ultimate move. What do you think about it?

Looking at their GT numbers, they are… weird. Seems like they are twisted, only one making sense is Pan. Someone messed up there. The pecking order probably would be SS3 Goku (7,000), Rild (5,900), Baby (3,800), Trunks (3,000) and Pan (2,700).

These numbers mean nothing. They are wacky as hell.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Nope.

They are only able to fend him off because of limit breaking attacks or the Kaioken x10. Without them, Fused Zamasu pretty much swats them away very easily and this is actually very much in unison with the manga since Goku needs a superior transformation than SSB (CSSB) to match Fused Zamasu and Vegeta does a limit breaking attack to blow him to pieces.

Goku Black would have been able to do the same thing Goku did at the start of episode 66 if he had sacrificed his arms to do it. There's also the fact that Goku Black is said to be the strongest outside of Fused Zamasu in the episode prior to this.

[Goku9001]

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Nope.

They are only able to fend him off because of limit breaking attacks or the Kaioken x10. Without them, Fused Zamasu pretty much swats them away very easily and this is actually very much in unison with the manga since Goku needs a superior transformation than SSB (CSSB) to match Fused Zamasu and Vegeta does a limit breaking attack to blow him to pieces.

Goku Black would have been able to do the same thing Goku did at the start of episode 66 if he had sacrificed his arms to do it. There's also the fact that Goku Black is said to be the strongest outside of Fused Zamasu in the episode prior to this.

Sounds like semantics.

Those are attacks that were a result of continuously getting stronger. We are told that Rage Trunks was growing stronger and we are later shown that Goku without the use of his arms and legs could actually kick around Merged Zamasu before Kaioken was even a factor. Prior to their "limit-breaking" attacks, Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta reached a level where they could plow through Merged Zamasu's Wall of Light despite being overwhelmed by a vastly inferior attack prior. The result of those efforts aggravated Merged Zamasu and forced him to use even more power.

Limit-breaking would actually be an appropriate term to describe the Super anime in general. They broke their limits and reached even greater power.

[ZombieVito]

Sounds like semantics.

Those are attacks that were a result of continuously getting stronger. We are told that Rage Trunks was growing stronger and we are later shown that Goku without the use of his arms and legs could actually kick around Merged Zamasu before Kaioken was even a factor. Prior to their "limit-breaking" attacks, Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta reached a level where they could plow through Merged Zamasu's Wall of Light despite being overwhelmed by a vastly inferior attack prior. The result of those efforts aggravated Merged Zamasu and forced him to use even more power.

Limit-breaking would actually be an appropriate term to describe the Super anime in general. They broke their limits and reached even greater power.

Trunks is the only one that is actually stated to get any stronger. Nothing was said about Goku and Vegeta.

Also you are forgetting that Goku only managed to kick Zamasu after the Kamehameha because the latter was off guard, still shocked of what happened prior. Once he regains himself he easily stops him and forces Goku to use the Kaioken.

[Goku9001]

Sounds like semantics.

Those are attacks that were a result of continuously getting stronger. We are told that Rage Trunks was growing stronger and we are later shown that Goku without the use of his arms and legs could actually kick around Merged Zamasu before Kaioken was even a factor. Prior to their "limit-breaking" attacks, Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta reached a level where they could plow through Merged Zamasu's Wall of Light despite being overwhelmed by a vastly inferior attack prior. The result of those efforts aggravated Merged Zamasu and forced him to use even more power.

Limit-breaking would actually be an appropriate term to describe the Super anime in general. They broke their limits and reached even greater power.

Trunks is the only one that is actually stated to get any stronger. Nothing was said about Goku and Vegeta.

Also you are forgetting that Goku only managed to kick Zamasu after the Kamehameha because the latter was off guard, still shocked of what happened prior. Once he regains himself he easily stops him and forces Goku to use the Kaioken.

Not quite. We are blatantly told by Goku that both Vegeta and him need to grow stronger to beat Merged Zamasu. Then Goku claims that they will go "full power" and they immediately plow through Merged Zamasu's Wall of Light and forces him to actually physically defend against the both of him. This was in contrast to what happened prior when Merged Zamasu could easily defeat them with an inferior attack. Ki attacks depend on the strength of the users. Their attacks grew stronger because they had grown stronger which was enough to overpower Merged Zamasu. Merged Zamasu was stated to have overwhelming power by the narrator of Episode 66 and then he stated that this was no longer the case.

Case in point, Blue Goku's attacks were still capable of pushing Merged Zamasu around. Goku beat him around repeatedly before Merged Zamasu composed himself enough to defend against him. Even then, Blue Goku was able to break free just by using Kaioken which is a far cry from the boost Zamasu received just by fusing.

[SupremeKai25]

SSJR Goku Black honestly has no business being in this tier list. It's apparent in both the anime and manga that Toriyama intended for the Blue Saiyans to greatly surpass SSJR Goku Black based on their battles with Merged Zamasu alone. The anime has the Blue tier fighters growing stronger over the course of the tournament which greatly widened the gap.

What Toriyama intended is irrelevant since he never wrote that arc in detail.

In the Anime Toei continuity, Goku Black's evolution peak is a threat that requires the intervention of SSB Evolved Gogeta. Which is Gogeta using a more evolved form than what he was using in Broly movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaX9oTg6oHY

Anime Peak Goku Black destroys Toppo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Doesn’t Vegeta also say Zamasu is toying with them? In the same sequence with the giant phoenix I think. They weren’t doing shit to a suppressed Zamasu.

[Goku9001]

Doesn’t Vegeta also say Zamasu is toying with them? In the same sequence with the giant phoenix I think. They weren’t doing shit to a suppressed Zamasu.

I think this is ignoring the point. He was toying around but his expressions completely changed once Goku and Vegeta plowed through Merged Zamasu's Wall of Light. Whatever effort he wanted to use was not enough and he had to use more effort. That would mean that the Saiyans had grown stronger to warrant that.

This would be a sign that the Saiyans surpassed Goku Black because even Merged Zamasu's lowest power displayed, which was proven not to be enough for the Blue fighters later on, was stated to be much stronger than Goku Black's.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think this is ignoring the point. He was toying around but his expressions completely changed once Goku and Vegeta plowed through Merged Zamasu's Wall of Light. Whatever effort he wanted to use was not enough and he had to use more effort. That would mean that the Saiyans had grown stronger to warrant that.

This would be a sign that the Saiyans surpassed Goku Black because even Merged Zamasu's lowest power displayed, which was proven not to be enough for the Blue fighters later on, was stated to be much stronger than Goku Black's.

Yeah, he was surprised they broke through his minimum effort attack.

Zamasu's Ki was above Goku Black, but his actual effort is way below his power. That's what "toying" means. Not to mention Goku and Vegeta only broke through the attack by going in together, individually they still got their arms twisted just by gettting blocked.

[SupremeKai25]

Fused Zamasu was toying with his enemies the entire time, Vegeta explicitly noted that he was toying with them. Zamasu is arrogant, he likes to play with his food, and when you merge two Zamasus, you get an even more arrogant deity. Vegeta and Trunks were able to push back his attack because Zamasu was underestimating them, Vegeta tells Zamasu during the beam struggle not to underestimate saiyans, this means that Zamasu was still underestimating them and not taking them seriously. In spite of this, the father-son galick gun was so pathetic that it did not damage Zamasu's body in any way.

A serious Fused Zamasu pushed SSB Goku to his absolute full power limit-breaking point. Goku broke his own arms trying to push back Zamasu's Holy Wrath attack. Despite having half his face damaged, Zamasu was still able to crush Goku's ankle, forcing Goku to use a limit-breaking Kaioken that shattered his body and caused him to revert back to base form and fall to the ground exhausted. Zamasu pushed Goku to his absolute limit-breaking point.

Goku's body was shattered and he could not even stand up anymore, he needed Shin's help just to raise his upper body. Meanwhile, Zamasu was overflowing with power and causing the surrounding landscape to explode (this is even before power-up). In the end, Goku utterly failed to put down his opponent, who could have continued fighting, despite raising his power so much that he broke his bones and could no longer move.

Fused Zamasu was much more powerful than the Saiyans. Goku Black was already stated by Gowasu to be the most powerful fighter, and whatever gain the Saiyans might have made in ep. 65 was obviously not enough to bridge the enormous gap with Fused Zamasu.

If Goku didn't have senzu bean, the entire battle would have ended with Goku on the ground, defeated, his bones shattered, and Fused Zamasu victorious. Fused Zamasu (even before power-up) >>>>>> Saiyans.

As for Goku Black, he can be summed up as "Goku but more OP and hax'd", which is why Toei had him face Gogeta SSBE himself, something that normal Goku would obviously never be able to do.