Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Gowasu literally says in episode 67 that it is only thanks to his immortality if he survived, and I quote:

He was cut down. But thanks to the Dragon's power, his being remains.

[Koitsukai]

He survived it thanks to his "fading immortality" right?, therefore he was still immortal. And then he came back better than ever.

I really can't believe you accuse everyone of headcanon while saying an immortal character that survived an attack that would require him to be immortal to do so because he was CUT IN HALF AND OBLITERATED!!, actually wasn't immortal anymore. Did you skip episode 67?

[Zarely]

Except Toriyama stated the next enemy is always stronger than the last in DB. Jiren by default is weaker than Broly.

No what is said in the series clearly contradicts that. That also isn't even true as Golden Frieza wasn't stronger than Beerus and Toriyama actually wrote those movies.

If Vegito, Beerus and Broly are all at pretty much the same level and a hugely suppressed Jiren is stronger than Fused Zamasu then he has to be stronger than them all at his best because Fused Zamasu wasn't that far off.

Broly ~ Blue Vegito >= Beerus > Jiren (limit breaker) > Jiren (full power) > Jiren (suppressed) = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku > Fused Zamasu

That doesn't fit because then Vegito would have toyed with Zamasu like he was nothing and he didn't.

[ZombieVito]

Except Toriyama stated the next enemy is always stronger than the last in DB. Jiren by default is weaker than Broly.

No what is said in the series clearly contradicts that. That also isn't even true as Golden Frieza wasn't stronger than Beerus and Toriyama actually wrote those movies.

If Vegito, Beerus and Broly are all at pretty much the same level and a hugely suppressed Jiren is stronger than Fused Zamasu then he has to be stronger than them all at his best because Fused Zamasu wasn't that far off.

Broly ~ Blue Vegito >= Beerus > Jiren (limit breaker) > Jiren (full power) > Jiren (suppressed) = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku > Fused Zamasu

That doesn't fit because then Vegito would have toyed with Zamasu like he was nothing and he didn't.

And this is precisely why Beerus ~ Vegetto Blue doesn't work.

[Miracles]

TOEI's narration about Zamasu's immortality never changed. It didn't say he is losing immortality one moment then he is still immortal the next. Trunks damaging/injuring Zamasu is proof of that. Zamas surviving that attack just like he was doing Vegetto's, does not negate the plot of Zamasu' not being immortal anymore.

Except Toriyama stated the next enemy is always stronger than the last in DB. Jiren by default is weaker than Broly.

No what is said in the series clearly contradicts that. That also isn't even true as Golden Frieza wasn't stronger than Beerus and Toriyama actually wrote those movies.

If Vegito, Beerus and Broly are all at pretty much the same level and a hugely suppressed Jiren is stronger than Fused Zamasu then he has to be stronger than them all at his best because Fused Zamasu wasn't that far off.

Broly ~ Blue Vegito >= Beerus > Jiren (limit breaker) > Jiren (full power) > Jiren (suppressed) = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku > Fused Zamasu

That doesn't fit because then Vegito would have toyed with Zamasu like he was nothing and he didn't.

Beerus was setup as Goku's Benchmark [Final opponent] in BoG. So Freeza coming after him, or anyone else for that matter isn't stronger than Beerus.

So Toriyama's plot about the next enemy being stronger is always in effect.

[ZombieVito]

But you cannot be mortal and survive being stabbed repeatedly and then slice up in half.

And again, Zamasu not healing up properly doesn't mean he's not immortal.

[Miracles]

The physical showings give some indication that Zamas still was immortal.
However, Narration REPEATEDLY states differently and was never changed to fit/confirm the showings.
We are simply left with the story saying one thing yet showing something faintly different.

I told you guys...This is why I hate TOEI's story inconsistency. I'm just going to leave it at that.

[ZombieVito]

But only Vegettto said Zamasu wasn't immortal and he was shown to be wrong in the same episode.

Again, Zamasu's body not healing properly =/= not immortal.

[Miracles]

Before fusion, the story stated Zamasu's immortality always regenerated from damage. When he absorbs Black, the human, his regeneration begins failing him. After Goku injures/damages him with the Kamehameha. Vegetto even notes this when he stabs Zamasu, that he feels pain. This narration was stated more than once, Vegetto confirms that he is no longer immortal as a result. This pain/injury that was felt was continued as Trunks was decimating Zamasu.

I'm sorry, the story's facts makes it CLEAR that Zamasu's failed regeneration is a result of no immortality.

[ZombieVito]

Just because you are immortal doesn't mean you don't feel pain.

In both the anime and manga, Future Zamasu is shown to feel pain.

For someone berating people for using headcanon you sure use it yourself a lot. It was never said that Fused Zamasu's lack of regeneration was because he wasn't immortal anymore.

If he wasn't immortal then Zamasu would be dead by the end of episode 66. How hard is that to understand?

[Miracles]

You guys have been using headcanon because the story specifically notes the difference when Zamasu is immortal, he is invulnerable. However, when he absorbs Black, he loses that invincibility, he feels pain, due to loss of immortality. Gowasu and Vegetto specifically notes this very fact.

I have simply stated what the story gave us. You guys are throwing out things the story didn't say. I quote: "Zamasu is still immortal cause he came back from his head split open." The story didn't confirm it ,YOU guys only say so. Nothing in the narration changed, affirming it was due to his immortality. That's you guys trying to change the story's plot with your script.

[Koitsukai]

Episode 67 showed Zamasu coming back in laughter after his cut-in-half body evaporated. This action alone disproves any previous statement from other characters, and it does not constitute a contradiction or bad writing.

You don't need someone confirming somebody is still immortal when they just got cut in half, obliterated and that still does NOT kill them. Specially when they can't regenerate like before. He couldn't be killed, fact.

Also, in the manga Zamasu is still immortal until the moment Zeno erases him, so if Toriyama's plot points mean anything at all, and anime Zamasu keeps coming back, then...

[Miracles]

Zamasu coming back from Trunks attack wasn't stated to be due to immortality. Don't you understand, you guys only say so. The story would have to indeed confirm this was the case. IN ORDER to set off the current plot point of Zamasu losing his immortality. It never happened.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu coming back from Trunks attack wasn't stated to be due to immortality. Don't you understand, you guys only say so. The story would have to indeed confirm this was the case. IN ORDER to set off the current plot point of Zamasu losing his immortality. It never happened.

Gowasu literally says "Thanks to the DRAGON'S POWER". Which power was that, again? Hmm, let me think. Ah yes:

Also, narration never said he was no longer immortal. That's something Vegito only said once, and he was referring only to his body. And Vegito is not an omniscient narrator. Neither Gowasu nor Shin ever said he lost his immortality. "Falling apart" refers to him losing his regeneration capability, not his immortality.

Otherwise, fine, if Vegito is an omniscient narrator, then so was Fused Zamasu himself, and he repeated several times after Vegito's line that he was indeed still immortal, so the narration was clearly hinting that Vegito was wrong.

[Miracles]

Zamasu coming back from Trunks attack wasn't stated to be due to immortality. Don't you understand, you guys only say so. The story would have to indeed confirm this was the case. IN ORDER to set off the current plot point of Zamasu losing his immortality. It never happened.

Gowasu literally says "Thanks to the DRAGON'S POWER". Which power was that, again? Hmm, let me think. Ah yes:

Also, narration never said he was no longer immortal. That's something Vegito only said once, and he was referring only to his body. And Vegito is not an omniscient narrator. Neither Gowasu nor Shin ever said he lost his immortality. "Falling apart" refers to him losing his regeneration capability, not his immortality.

Otherwise, fine, if Vegito is an omniscient narrator, then so was Fused Zamasu himself, and he repeated several times after Vegito's line that he was indeed still immortal, so the narration was clearly hinting that Vegito was wrong.

Vegetto's reasons for saying Zamasu is no longer immortal is because he repeated what Gowasu stated earlier. So Narration is consistent yet again about Zamasu's immortality.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu coming back from Trunks attack wasn't stated to be due to immortality. Don't you understand, you guys only say so. The story would have to indeed confirm this was the case. IN ORDER to set off the current plot point of Zamasu losing his immortality. It never happened.

Gowasu literally says "Thanks to the DRAGON'S POWER". Which power was that, again? Hmm, let me think. Ah yes:

Also, narration never said he was no longer immortal. That's something Vegito only said once, and he was referring only to his body. And Vegito is not an omniscient narrator. Neither Gowasu nor Shin ever said he lost his immortality. "Falling apart" refers to him losing his regeneration capability, not his immortality.

Otherwise, fine, if Vegito is an omniscient narrator, then so was Fused Zamasu himself, and he repeated several times after Vegito's line that he was indeed still immortal, so the narration was clearly hinting that Vegito was wrong.

Vegetto's reasons for saying Zamasu is no longer immortal is because he repeated what Gowasu stated earlier. So Narration is consistent yet again about Zamasu's immortality.

No. Gowasu never said he was no longer immortal. He only mentions how half of Fused Zamasu's body is no longer impervious to physical damage due to the presence of Black, then goes on to mention an internal conflict that is disrupting his regeneration, and how it is possible that that's where their key to victory lies. He even says, and I quote, "I'm saying it's possible, not guaranteed". Again, nowhere does he say that he is no longer immortal. And you keep ignoring that in ep. 67 Gowasu said Zamasu was still immortal.

[Miracles]

Gowasu literally says "Thanks to the DRAGON'S POWER". Which power was that, again? Hmm, let me think. Ah yes:

Also, narration never said he was no longer immortal. That's something Vegito only said once, and he was referring only to his body. And Vegito is not an omniscient narrator. Neither Gowasu nor Shin ever said he lost his immortality. "Falling apart" refers to him losing his regeneration capability, not his immortality.

Otherwise, fine, if Vegito is an omniscient narrator, then so was Fused Zamasu himself, and he repeated several times after Vegito's line that he was indeed still immortal, so the narration was clearly hinting that Vegito was wrong.

Vegetto's reasons for saying Zamasu is no longer immortal is because he repeated what Gowasu stated earlier. So Narration is consistent yet again about Zamasu's immortality.

No. Gowasu never said he was no longer immortal. He only mentions how half of Fused Zamasu's body is no longer impervious to physical damage due to the presence of Black, then goes on to mention an internal conflict that is disrupting his regeneration, and how it is possible that that's where their key to victory lies. He even says, and I quote, "I'm saying it's possible, not guaranteed". Again, nowhere does he say that he is no longer immortal. And you keep ignoring that in ep. 67 Gowasu said Zamasu was still immortal.

Show me where in episode 67 Gowasu stated Zamasu [fused] was immortal?
Also, the explanation you quoted from Gowasu was the same explanation Vegetto used for his reasons about Zamasu no longer being immortal.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegetto's reasons for saying Zamasu is no longer immortal is because he repeated what Gowasu stated earlier. So Narration is consistent yet again about Zamasu's immortality.

No. Gowasu never said he was no longer immortal. He only mentions how half of Fused Zamasu's body is no longer impervious to physical damage due to the presence of Black, then goes on to mention an internal conflict that is disrupting his regeneration, and how it is possible that that's where their key to victory lies. He even says, and I quote, "I'm saying it's possible, not guaranteed". Again, nowhere does he say that he is no longer immortal. And you keep ignoring that in ep. 67 Gowasu said Zamasu was still immortal.

Show me where in episode 67 Gowasu stated Zamasu [fused] was immortal?
Also, the explanation you quoted from Gowasu was the same explanation Vegetto used for his reasons about Zamasu no longer being immortal.

I already quoted at the top of this page, in the same post you quoted just now, where he said it.

Also, it doesn't matter if it's the same explanation because it is false that Gowasu said Zamasu was no longer immortal, he said no such thing.

Also Vegito never said Zamasu was no longer invincible, he said he wasn't PURELY invincible anymore, which is different. He wasn't purely invincible because half of his body was now vulnerable to damage, but that doesn't mean he no longer had an immortal soul.

[Miracles]

No. Gowasu never said he was no longer immortal. He only mentions how half of Fused Zamasu's body is no longer impervious to physical damage due to the presence of Black, then goes on to mention an internal conflict that is disrupting his regeneration, and how it is possible that that's where their key to victory lies. He even says, and I quote, "I'm saying it's possible, not guaranteed". Again, nowhere does he say that he is no longer immortal. And you keep ignoring that in ep. 67 Gowasu said Zamasu was still immortal.

Show me where in episode 67 Gowasu stated Zamasu [fused] was immortal?
Also, the explanation you quoted from Gowasu was the same explanation Vegetto used for his reasons about Zamasu no longer being immortal.

I already quoted at the top of this page, in the same post you quoted just now, where he said it.

Also, it doesn't matter if it's the same explanation because it is false that Gowasu said Zamasu was no longer immortal, he said no such thing.

The reason why Vegetto said Zamasu was no longer immortal was because of Gowasu's explanation. They are both saying the same thing.
BTW, that statement, I didn't see it in episode 67.

[SupremeKai25]

Show me where in episode 67 Gowasu stated Zamasu [fused] was immortal?
Also, the explanation you quoted from Gowasu was the same explanation Vegetto used for his reasons about Zamasu no longer being immortal.

I already quoted at the top of this page, in the same post you quoted just now, where he said it.

Also, it doesn't matter if it's the same explanation because it is false that Gowasu said Zamasu was no longer immortal, he said no such thing.

The reason why Vegetto said Zamasu was no longer immortal was because of Gowasu's explanation. They are both saying the same thing.
BTW, that statement, I didn't see it in episode 67.

Except they are not. Again, Gowasu never said he wasn't immortal anymore, he's just saying that it's possible to disrupt his regeneration because he does not have a 100% invincible body anymore in spite of his immortal soul. Vegito later on doesn't mention he isn't immortal anymore, he just says he doesn't have a body that is completely invincible anymore. Also Gowasu says that line when he explains how Zamasu is covering the planet.