Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Doesn’t Vegeta also say Zamasu is toying with them? In the same sequence with the giant phoenix I think. They weren’t doing shit to a suppressed Zamasu.

Was about to post this, yeah he does say it.

Goku simply sacrificed more on that beam struggle than Zamasu so that's why he won. It's really as simple as that.

We never get a statement that Goku and Vegeta grew stronger during the fight (Unlike the ToP) so any increase in power people want to give them here is their own headcanon.

[Yuji]

Yeah, Goku broke his arms with the Kamehameha. It seems Zamasu underestimated him and got caught off-guard. When he regains his composure, Goku needs Kaioken to catch him off guard again and do damage. Zamasu matched Trunks and Vegeta together just seconds ago, so unless we want to argue Goku was over twice as strong as Vegeta at this point, then it's clear he wasn't taking them seriously, especially considering he's very much on par with Blue Vegetto in his corrupted form. Trunks is the only one who was said to have gotten stronger over the course of the fight.

[Goku9001]

I think this is ignoring the point. He was toying around but his expressions completely changed once Goku and Vegeta plowed through Merged Zamasu's Wall of Light. Whatever effort he wanted to use was not enough and he had to use more effort. That would mean that the Saiyans had grown stronger to warrant that.

This would be a sign that the Saiyans surpassed Goku Black because even Merged Zamasu's lowest power displayed, which was proven not to be enough for the Blue fighters later on, was stated to be much stronger than Goku Black's.

Yeah, he was surprised they broke through his minimum effort attack.

Zamasu's Ki was above Goku Black, but his actual effort is way below his power. That's what "toying" means. Not to mention Goku and Vegeta only broke through the attack by going in together, individually they still got their arms twisted just by gettting blocked.

They literally witnessed this minimum-effort attack he used on the Saiyans and stated that it was the greatest power they had encountered. The narrative is constantly pushing the idea that Merged Zamasu was far greater than Goku Black in any sense of the word.

Doesn’t Vegeta also say Zamasu is toying with them? In the same sequence with the giant phoenix I think. They weren’t doing shit to a suppressed Zamasu.

Was about to post this, yeah he does say it.

Goku simply sacrificed more on that beam struggle than Zamasu so that's why he won. It's really as simple as that.

We never get a statement that Goku and Vegeta grew stronger during the fight (Unlike the ToP) so any increase in power people want to give them here is their own headcanon.

So you equate Vegeta's performance against Jiren as a sign of improvement during the Tournament of Power in which he uses a limit-breaking attack in the form of Final Flash and then Blue Evolved yet do not do the same with the Saiyans against Merged Zamasu? This is dishonest. We are blatantly told that Vegeta and Goku needed to become stronger to fend off Merged Zamasu. The narrator plainly states that Merged Zamasu no longer displayed overwhelming power against the Saiyans.

Unless you want to argue that Kaioken is equivalent to a fusion-level boost, there's literally no way you can argue that Blue Goku didn't get stronger unless Merged Zamasu was magnitudes weaker, which is not stated.

[ZombieVito]

So you equate Vegeta's performance against Jiren as a sign of improvement during the Tournament of Power in which he uses a limit-breaking attack in the form of Final Flash and then Blue Evolved yet do not do the same with the Saiyans against Merged Zamasu? This is dishonest. We are blatantly told that Vegeta and Goku needed to become stronger to fend off Merged Zamasu. The narrator plainly states that Merged Zamasu no longer displayed overwhelming power against the Saiyans.

Unless you want to argue that Kaioken is equivalent to a fusion-level boost, there's literally no way you can argue that Blue Goku didn't get stronger unless Merged Zamasu was magnitudes weaker, which is not stated.

Vegeta has multiple statements saying he got stronger and has a new transformation to boot. Nothing is said in his fight with Fused Zamasu.

[Goku9001]

So you equate Vegeta's performance against Jiren as a sign of improvement during the Tournament of Power in which he uses a limit-breaking attack in the form of Final Flash and then Blue Evolved yet do not do the same with the Saiyans against Merged Zamasu? This is dishonest. We are blatantly told that Vegeta and Goku needed to become stronger to fend off Merged Zamasu. The narrator plainly states that Merged Zamasu no longer displayed overwhelming power against the Saiyans.

Unless you want to argue that Kaioken is equivalent to a fusion-level boost, there's literally no way you can argue that Blue Goku didn't get stronger unless Merged Zamasu was magnitudes weaker, which is not stated.

Vegeta has multiple statements saying he got stronger and has a new transformation to boot. Nothing is said in his fight with Fused Zamasu.

Such as when he's using Final Flash and using a limit-breaking transformation.

Goku and Vegeta literally state that they need to grow stronger and then continue to force Merged Zamasu to exert more power. It's patently shown.

[Miracles]

Yeah, aside of how rusty Goku was after the Zamaru arc, -even though he was involved in a double KO with Shin Golden Freeza right before the ToP began- Goku grew significantly stronger during the ToP, whether people want to acknowledge that or not, what happened, happened.
He held his own as a regular SSB vs the guy that had crushed his bones while using KKx20 moments before. How much stronger is anybody's guess, but strong enough to make the previous arc's non-fused characters irrelevant.

He should have a place if base Topo, Hit and 17 are on the list.

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Agreed. Goku in Blue alone was able to overpower fused Zamas with a Kamehameha using his "full power." It seems like Goku was holding back the entire fight against Black.

[Goku9001]

He should have a place if base Topo, Hit and 17 are on the list.

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Agreed. Goku in Blue alone was able to overpower fused Zamas with a Kamehameha using his "full power." It seems like Goku was holding back the entire fight against Black.

Either he was holding back or just plainly growing stronger during the fight. Goku Black even noticed this during his final battle with Vegeta where his power was growing through rage. They were at the height of their emotions when they battled Merged Zamasu so I'm not sure why that wouldn't be the case when the narrative and feats support it.

I'm personally not so sure why people are adamant about Goku Black being relevant to ToP Blue Saiyans in the anime. Maybe someone could explain that to me. When we blatantly see the Blue Saiyans fend off a much stronger opponent, I can't really see that being the case.

[SupremeKai25]

He should have a place if base Topo, Hit and 17 are on the list.

I don't think so. The anime is also consistent with the manga where the Blue Saiyans are capable of fending off Merged Zamasu to some degree. I can't really see how SSJR Goku Black is even relevant to Blue Saiyans after the conclusion of the Zamasu arc.

Agreed. Goku in Blue alone was able to overpower fused Zamas with a Kamehameha using his "full power." It seems like Goku was holding back the entire fight against Black.

He was holding back against the villain who slaughtered his family with his body and gloated about it?

That's OOC for Goku.

Goku was never "holding back" against Black, he was simply fodder. Even Kaioken wouldn't have done anything but make Black stronger through massive beat down.

I'm personally not so sure why people are adamant about Goku Black being relevant to ToP Blue Saiyans in the anime. Maybe someone could explain that to me. When we blatantly see the Blue Saiyans fend off a much stronger opponent, I can't really see that being the case.

1) There's no evidence ToP SSB Saiyans > FT SSB Saiyans. The fact that writers needed new form (Ultra Instinct/SSB Evolved) already tells you that SSB peaked at FT saga.

2) Saiyans "outdated" forms don't get imaginary power gains between arcs. Beerus didn't believe that Base BoG Goku could defeat Namek arc Frieza. This means that Base BoG Goku is not stronger than Namek arc Frieza. Base Goku doesn't magically get stronger simply because many years have passed. ToP SSB Saiyans aren't magically stronger than FT SSB Saiyans simply because it's a new arc and some time has passed.

3) Black can replicate and surpass anything Goku can do since narrative constantly portrays Black as Goku but more hax'd. So, if Black were to fight TOP SSB Goku, he'd simply adapt and grow stronger, like he always does.

[Hugo Boss]

My gosh, we had these same Goku Black back-and-forths months ago… That ship has sailed.

Rild being stronger than SS3 Goku (GT) is indeed VERY weird... and they both have no business being this close to the god forms, IMO.

5,900 is usually the number given to Majin Boo tier characters, so I think it would fit Rild better. 7,000 in another hand is close to SS3 Goku (Adult) (7,300). Seems like they don’t consider Kid Goku stronger than Adult Goku, after all.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Where do we rank Orange Piccolo? Would he be above someone like God of Destruction Top for example?

His feats being that he one shot a Super Saiyan Blue level opponent and held his own though was clearly inferior to a weakened Cell Max who is seemingly inferior to Broly.

[ZombieVito]

Where do we rank Orange Piccolo? Would he be above someone like God of Destruction Top for example?

His feats being that he one shot a Super Saiyan Blue level opponent and held his own though was clearly inferior to a weakened Cell Max who is seemingly inferior to Broly.

On par with Goku so at a minimum, he's 80% of UI Goku.

[Goku9001]

Where do we rank Orange Piccolo? Would he be above someone like God of Destruction Top for example?

His feats being that he one shot a Super Saiyan Blue level opponent and held his own though was clearly inferior to a weakened Cell Max who is seemingly inferior to Broly.

Akira Toriyama said that Orange Piccolo finally caught up to Goku and Piccolo still seem to view Goku and Vegeta as the strongest before Beast Gohan was in the picture. In terms of the movie which groups the Goku and Vegeta together and did not consider the Moro and Granolah arcs in its development, I would say that Orange Piccolo is slightly below the Super Hero Blue Saiyans. The manga is most likely consistent with the idea that Orange Piccolo caught up with the Current Goku and Vegeta. As such, he would likely be on par with TUI Goku and UE Vegeta.

[Yuji]

Where do we rank Orange Piccolo? Would he be above someone like God of Destruction Top for example?

His feats being that he one shot a Super Saiyan Blue level opponent and held his own though was clearly inferior to a weakened Cell Max who is seemingly inferior to Broly.

I hold him in the Sign/Evolution tier. Beast is in the UI/UE tier and Piccolo was weaker but still stronger than Blue.

[Goku9001]

How powerful are the Gammas in the manga? I haven't kept up with it after the Granolah arc. From what I've read, the manga kept the line where Piccolo compared the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta. That would at least mean that based on Piccolo's recollection, the Gammas would be on par with UI Omen Goku/Blue Evolved Vegeta as of the Moro arc which doesn't seem right. After all, if the manga plays out like the movie, Ultimate Gohan would be slightly stronger than the Gammas.

[Yuji]

How powerful are the Gammas in the manga? I haven't kept up with it after the Granolah arc. From what I've read, the manga kept the line where Piccolo compared the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta. That would at least mean that based on Piccolo's recollection, the Gammas would be on par with UI Omen Goku/Blue Evolved Vegeta as of the Moro arc which doesn't seem right. After all, if the manga plays out like the movie, Ultimate Gohan would be slightly stronger than the Gammas.

I think Blue is still the ballpark but Gohan gets way stronger regardless. In the manga he couldn't do a thing against Saganbo whilst Blue could handle him just fine. So Gohan goes from moderately below Blue to slightly above Blue in his ultimate form.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I wouldn't put much stock on the Gammas being on par with Goku and Vegeta when Orange Piccolo was also said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta.

They can't both be.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I wouldn't put much stock on the Gammas being on par with Goku and Vegeta when Orange Piccolo was also said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta.

They can't both be.

They can if you're taking the potential contradiction to mean different forms.

Given the role the Gammas occupy and the development of the Super Hero movie, the common consensus that makes the most sense I've seen is that Gamma 1 and 2 are equivalent to SSG or SSB Goku/Vegeta, with Orange Piccolo being equivalent to SSBE/Kaioken or Ultra Instinct/Ego.

[Koitsukai]

We've seen Orange Piccolo oneshot Gamma, who's SSB level based on statements and on their performance. The other people I can recall doing that to a SSB level dude are Jiren, Zamasu and Moro73.

Piccolo seems to be able to do even more damage than SS Broly did to SSB Goku, although Goku was constantly on the run.
He also tanked Gamma without flinching, SS Broly could not do that as flawlessly vs the blue saiyans, but he was dealing with two of them so I'd say Big Orange is on that level.
That's KK/SSBE level or the next step: Sign, or even more if Piccolo was holding back in order to not kill Gamma.

About him being UI level, based on what Toriyama said has little relevance to me, I mean, Toyo is already rewriting what Toriyama wrote for the actual movie, so I wouldn't put much thought on vague comments from an interview, when not even the actual product is safe from being retold. Not until we get in-universe confirmation of it, that is.

[Kazuya Mishima]

I wouldn't put much stock on the Gammas being on par with Goku and Vegeta when Orange Piccolo was also said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta.

They can't both be.

They can if you're taking the potential contradiction to mean different forms.

Given the role the Gammas occupy and the development of the Super Hero movie, the common consensus that makes the most sense I've seen is that Gamma 1 and 2 are equivalent to SSG or SSB Goku/Vegeta, with Orange Piccolo being equivalent to SSBE/Kaioken or Ultra Instinct/Ego.

I doubt Toriyama gives a shit about those other forms.

[Hugo Boss]

How powerful are the Gammas in the manga? I haven't kept up with it after the Granolah arc. From what I've read, the manga kept the line where Piccolo compared the Gammas to Goku and Vegeta. That would at least mean that based on Piccolo's recollection, the Gammas would be on par with UI Omen Goku/Blue Evolved Vegeta as of the Moro arc which doesn't seem right. After all, if the manga plays out like the movie, Ultimate Gohan would be slightly stronger than the Gammas.

Most people interpret that Gammas are at Blue tier, but logically your reasoning makes sense. That’s the last time Goku and Vegeta were on equal foot that Piccolo remembers. That would make Ultimate Gohan at least that strong, but it can be justified by Gohan’s rage boosts. I never saw Gohan so pissed off in the Dragon Ball Super manga as he is in this recent chapter.