Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Block88]

That would depend on which version of Goku that Toriyama was talking about. Probably not the Goku that we saw on chapters #102 and #103. Maybe the UI Sign version from his fight against Gas?

That doesn't work. If Piccolo is as strong as UI Sign then he really doesn't rival Goku.

How strong you have orange Piccolo?

[ZombieVito]

How strong you have orange Piccolo?

80-90% of UI Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

That would depend on which version of Goku that Toriyama was talking about. Probably not the Goku that we saw on chapters #102 and #103. Maybe the UI Sign version from his fight against Gas?

That doesn't work. If Piccolo is as strong as UI Sign then he really doesn't rival Goku.

Well, considering how his fight against Gohan played out, I think it’s unlikely that Piccolo would rival Goku anyway. This only reinforces that Toriyama was talking about a version of Goku from the past. His best showing before fighting Gohan was against Gas, and right before the Super Hero chapters. That’s why I made the suggestion.

[Miracles]

So Gohan fought a full power UI Goku[?] then with "some gas left in the tank" fought Broly, even tossing him. Then Blue Vegeta, all this was on screen in bursts or fully. It was a spar, can't truly tell who is where. However, obviously Gohan was the one considered for God of Destruction along with Goku and Vegeta. Fitting for some one with more potential than the man protag's. Goku also says he can rest safe with earth in Gohan's hands when gone. We haven't seen UI speed Blitz'd before since Gas. Gohan also two-hit quit UI. However, Goku got the last hit in with a Kiai, stopping the match.

So based on what was outright given/stated on the sparring match...

1.Gohan/Goku
2.Vegeta [Didn't use UE]
3.Broly

Still weary about Goku's composure. May have True UI.

[ZombieVito]

Well, considering how his fight against Gohan played out, I think it’s unlikely that Piccolo would rival Goku anyway. This only reinforces that Toriyama was talking about a version of Goku from the past. His best showing before fighting Gohan was against Gas, and right before the Super Hero chapters. That’s why I made the suggestion.

Huh?

Gohan needs to almost snap to use his full power, when doing this he's stronger than Goku as shown in the chapter. Without doing that he rivals Goku.

Nothing of this makes what Toriyama said about Piccolo false.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, considering how his fight against Gohan played out, I think it’s unlikely that Piccolo would rival Goku anyway. This only reinforces that Toriyama was talking about a version of Goku from the past. His best showing before fighting Gohan was against Gas, and right before the Super Hero chapters. That’s why I made the suggestion.

Huh?

Gohan needs to almost snap to use his full power, when doing this he's stronger than Goku as shown in the chapter. Without doing that he rivals Goku.

Nothing of this makes what Toriyama said about Piccolo false.

I’m not sure what you mean by “huh”? Is there anything suggesting Orange Piccolo would fight like that against Beast Gohan? I’m confused.

[ZombieVito]

I’m not sure what you mean by “huh”? Is there anything suggesting Orange Piccolo would fight like that against Beast Gohan? I’m confused.

Toriyama's word.

Piccolo rivals Goku and Goku can fight on par with a calmed Beast Gohan so Piccolo can do the same.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Imagine that it's a similar case between Goku and Vegeta, where Piccolo is the Vegeta equivalent.

Gohan, like Goku, is overall superior whereas Piccolo and Vegeta lag behind the peaks those 2 can reach by a bit.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama didn’t exactly frame which version and from which story arc he thinks Orange Piccolo rivals Goku. He just speaks broadly about Goku and co. For context, this information came in June 2022, same month that chapter #85 was released, when Goku figured out UI Sign was the best form when his heart is not calm.

Of course, Goku trained a lot after fighting Gas and Freeza, so it stands to reason that in the meantime he could catch up to Beast Gohan. It doesn’t make sense to suggest that Orange Piccolo rivals Beast Gohan only based on claim from 2 years ago, specially when there was a large gap between them in the fight against Cell Max.

[dragonball0900]

From what the manga shows, Gohan and Goku are on par, with not that much evidence to show which one of both was stronger. Gohan does seem to have an edge in the offensive, but Goku has more of an edge in the deffensive. I do believe Goku would have eventually won with his skills and experience, which are superior to Gohan's.

Vegeta would have to be around a similar tier (assuming caught up to Goku as he always does in the series), with Broly also not to be that much behind.

Orange Piccolo would have to be far below them, since he couldn't beat Cell Max, who was far weaker than Beast Gohan, who was shown to be on par with UI Goku.

So I have Black Frieza > Beast Gohan = UI Goku = UE Vegeta > Controlled SSJ Broly >> Orange Piccolo.

[Mr Baggins]

Goku and Vegeta have gotten noticeably stronger since the Granolah arc. I don't generally assume offscreen boosts where none were implied, but this one was directly implied by Goku on the fourth page.

With that said, Goku still wanted to challenge Piccolo, so we can assume that Piccolo isn't too far behind.

The chapter's thrust is that they're all roughly in the same ballpark, likely with Piccolo at the bottom and Gohan at the top by a thin hair. It's fair to say that this ballpark is significantly above the likes of Granolah or Gas; Gas was just barely hanging on to his life in his final moments fighting Goku and Vegeta, which was years ago in-universe.

What's funny about all this is that Toriyama was cheeky enough to leave it just a little vague so that people will be arguing about this shit for years to come. It's almost like power levels are pointless or something. I'm satisfied just knowing they're all contenders.

[ZombieVito]

Toriyama didn’t exactly frame which version and from which story arc he thinks Orange Piccolo rivals Goku. He just speaks broadly about Goku and co. For context, this information came in June 2022, same month that chapter #85 was released, when Goku figured out UI Sign was the best form when his heart is not calm.

Of course, Goku trained a lot after fighting Gas and Freeza, so it stands to reason that in the meantime he could catch up to Beast Gohan. It doesn’t make sense to suggest that Orange Piccolo rivals Beast Gohan only based on claim from 2 years ago, specially when there was a large gap between them in the fight against Cell Max.

Toriyama never said a form so that makes it a general power statement which means it's Goku at his max.

It doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama never said a form so that makes it a general power statement which means it's Goku at his max.

It doesn't make sense otherwise.

I’m not suggesting otherwise… It’s only that it obviously doesn’t carry on forever, since ranks are always changing.

By the way, Goku being interested in fighting Piccolo seems to be just a layer of curiosity. He has no means of telling how strong Orange Piccolo is without fighting him properly.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You mean a throwaway power statement from Toriyama about the movie doesn't apply to the series? This is crazy and totally unexpected!

/s

[Kenneth La Torre]

If Piccolo ends up being on par with the saiyans, it doesnt change the fact he was weaker than cell max, a character who couldnt even phase Beast Gohan with a full power punch.

It would mean piccolo grew much stronger to mach them since then. And i would be more than fine with that.

But as far as Goku, Vegeta, Broly and Gohan go, they effortlessly stomp cell max, and theyd edge cell max on a beam struggle. And as far as they compare with each other, they seem to be on par with each fighter having their own quirks. Gokus evasiveness, Vegetas destructive capacity, Gohans rage boost, and Brolys frightening adaptive evolution and raw strength.

If i were to rate them base on raw strength alone, it would be:
1. Gohan/Broly
2. Goku/Vegeta

If going by overall fighting capabilities
1. Goku/Vegeta/Gohan
3. Broly

I put broly last not because i think he is weaker than the rest (i actually think he has the most raw strength. Cause of gohans statement), but because the rest of the saiyans are just more experienced. They have a bigger likelyhood of taking him down. Gohan did showcase this chapter by throwing broly. Sure it did nothing, but it was effective against the more inexperienced saiyan.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So the chapter is out and it looks like Gohan Beast is on UI Goku's level. Its hard to say if he's stronger or not when Goku was briefly stated to have advantage over him because of his experience and Goku also ended their match quickly. Gohan Beast was only able to land hits on UI Goku when he tapped into his full power which allowed him to counter UI's evasiveness with his speed, but it seems like Gohan also can't maintain his full power in Beast. He can only use it in short brusts. It looks like the plan for Gohan's character is to master his Beast form.

Only when he's calmed.

If he gets angry like he does in the chapter then he's way stronger. This also allows for Piccolo to rival Goku like Toriyama confirmed.

Not sure of that. Gohan needs to power up and get angry, drawing out the full power of his Beast form to be able to at least get past Ultra Instinct's evasion speed and land a clean hit, something that pretty much every enemy around UI Goku's tier was able to do (Angel Moro, Granolah, Gas). I don't see that as Gohan raw power being higher and more as his full strength being needed to equal things .

The chapter itself also never explicitly compares their raw strengths. Vegeta says Goku was turning the fight in his favor with Ultra Instinct and his experience being a factor, and after the fight stops he wonders why Goku left without a winner (no mentions about either of them having any advantage)

[Noah]

So Piccolo in the original manga refused to participated in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai because he was not in the level of Goku and others anymore, but in Super (anime/manga) he now is. So isn't that a bit contradictory?

I mean, how much time is left from the last chapter of DBS until the tournament? Months? Little time to increase the power distance between them.

This probably had been discussed before, but is Black Freeza strong enough to take Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Broly in their strongest forms if they all gang against him?

It's been 2 years and Frieza has leaned his lesson. I guarantee he has been training for the past 2 years and is stronger than he was when revealing Black Frieza to them. How strong he is now? We don't know.

So you mean, he's probably close to Beerus now?

[ZombieVito]

So Piccolo in the original manga refused to participated in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai because he was not in the level of Goku and others anymore, but in Super (anime/manga) he now is. So isn't that a bit contradictory?

I mean, how much time is left from the last chapter of DBS until the tournament? Months? Little time to increase the power distance between them.

AFAIR the manga never gave a reason for his and Gohan's lack of participation.

[Miracles]

After actually reading the chap [instead of skimming] Gohan Beast definitely did knock Kakarot out of UI with one blow. Gohan himself said it was "a clean hit."

[QuakingStar]

It was just revealed by Toyotaro that Toriyama worked directly on the SH Manga Arc. Toyo worked mostly on the prequel Arc that focused on Goten and Trunks.