Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

If you think Broly is stronger than Beerus with his max power, then you have to admit that Gohan is the strongest period with his max power. The direct implication of the line said for Gohan is that the condition for him to be the strongest is getting the limelight basically.

Statements being retconned is nothing new in this series, and I think the whole surpassing Beerus thing is one of those retconned things. It's also likely that Broly being stronger than Beerus was also retconned. In fact the latest statements only compare Broly's power to Cell Max by Toriyama himself. Toriyama's statement on Gohan is also there. So while Broly is still in the upper echelons, it seems very unlikely he is stronger than Beerus in the current power scale.

Even when that statement was "current", aka back in 2018, it was still dubious at best.

Because it was not a databook or the narrator that called Broly stronger than Beerus, it was Goku, who has certainly never seen the full extent of Beerus' power. There is a MASSIVE difference between an in-universe claim from a character and an out-of-universe statement from a meta source (like a databook).

Also, he said that it was a possibility that Broly was stronger than Beerus. How many times character A thought they stood a chance against character B, only to get a reality check and get demolished (a recurring theme with Vegeta)?

At this point, in 2024, it's clear that Broly is not a threat to Beerus.

[Yuji]

I think it was Toriyama's intention to keep Beerus atop the totem pole while Toei and Toyo have tried to leapfrog him given the chance. I wonder now what will happen, if Beerus will remain the perpetual moving goal post out of respect for Toriyama's vision, or if he will finally be surpassed in the next few stories.

[Koitsukai]

Should be taken into account that Goku and Beerus don't exist, it was Toriyama who said those words about Broly, through Goku, and Toriyama knew how strong he wanted Beerus to be.
Just like he was the one saying, not Vegeta(because he also doesn't exist), that hybrids are stronger than saiyans... something that came to fruition two arcs later. How well-informed was Vegeta to make such a claim? he wasn't even there.

Could that change? sure, the word "probably" wasn't there just because, but the whole "Goku hasn't seen bla bla" argument is useless, because if the author wants a character to be weaker than another, it doesn't matter how informed the character chosen to make the claim is, because the author is not basing that concept on the messenger.
This is all fictional and depends on the whims of the authors.

[SupremeKai25]

Should be taken into account that Goku and Beerus don't exist, it was Toriyama who said those words about Broly, through Goku, and Toriyama knew how strong he wanted Beerus to be.
Just like he was the one saying, not Vegeta(because he also doesn't exist), that hybrids are stronger than saiyans... something that came to fruition two arcs later. How well-informed was Vegeta to make such a claim? he wasn't even there.

Could that change? sure, the word "probably" wasn't there just because, but the whole "Goku hasn't seen bla bla" argument is useless, because if the author wants a character to be weaker than another, it doesn't matter how informed the character chosen to make the claim is, because the author is not basing that concept on the messenger.
This is all fictional and depends on the whims of the authors.

Story-telling doesn't work like that.

Toriyama didn't write that Broly is stronger than Beerus. He wrote that Goku thinks that Broly is stronger than Beerus. There is a massive difference.

Again, by no means does a character's in-universe claim necessarily reflect the Authorial stance. This is Story-telling 101.

And Yes, the fact that Goku never saw Beerus full-power in action makes all the difference, because it means that Goku doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Mr Baggins]

Story-telling doesn't work like that.

Storytelling quite literally works like that. Comparative statements, milestones and the like are conveyed properly through the narrative and its dialogue exclusively, not databooks or excel charts.

All characters are just metaphorical storytelling devices. They're not real people, dawg. They're specifically intended by the writer to communicate ideas to the viewer; there'd be no point in having Goku make the comparison if it didn't mean anything.

For the trillionth time, the artists of this simple children's comic/series aren't just fucking with you or pulling your leg. They want you, the audience, to absorb what they put on the page.

Please think critically.

[Hugo Boss]

While it's true that Toriyama didn't explicitly state that Broly is stronger than Beerus, it's also important to consider the context and narrative implications of Goku's perspective.

While Goku may not have witnessed Beerus' full power, and that’s debatable, it doesn't necessarily mean he's completely uninformed about Beerus' capabilities. Goku's understanding of strength and combat prowess is deeply ingrained in his character, and his assessment, while subjective, shouldn't be disregarded outright.

[Thani]

Plus, in the manga, he quite literally saw Beerus fight at full power in a free for all between the other gods. We know he had to have gone all out because the Grand Priest threatened them with death if they were caught not fighting with everything they had. You could argue the threat wasn't serious since Belmod cheated with no consequence, but we saw that every god took it to heart. Beerus was even a mess of wounds after it.

I mean, coupled with all the crazy moments of power Beerus showed in the anime as well, it's not a stretch that Goku should have an informed idea where Beerus' power stands. It would be quite absurd to expect he had, and still has, no clue about that.

[Koitsukai]

Story-telling doesn't work like that.

I won't address this because Mr. Baggins did it better than I ever would.

Toriyama didn't write that Broly is stronger than Beerus. He wrote that Goku thinks that Broly is stronger than Beerus. There is a massive difference.

Again, by no means does a character's in-universe claim necessarily reflect the Authorial stance. This is Story-telling 101.

And Yes, the fact that Goku never saw Beerus full-power in action makes all the difference, because it means that Goku doesn't know what he is talking about.

And talking about how storytelling works, if it's not to hype Broly at Beerus' expense (hence the sneezing part) please explain what's the subtext behind the bolded part? what was the point in having Goku's uncalled and flawed opinion? what's the narrative relevance in that? what does that accomplish from a storytelling POV?
Your reading implies it's a useless line that goes nowhere, then in the spirit of storytelling, why was that included? do you really think Toriyama doesn't know the weight of dialogue? he just has characters say bullshit as filler? Goku isn't real, he thinks what Akira wanted him to.


And it can easily be explained how Goku can get to that conclusion without having all the material facts, hence the presence of the term PROBABLY.
After the GoDs' BR, Goku can gauge how far away the GoDs were from Jiren and himself, and where Gogeta and Broly stand in comparison, and can make an educated guess and say this guy seems to be above what I saw at the Exhibition Match, even though Beerus might/probably have something else up his sleeve. Simple as that.

[SupremeKai25]

Plus, in the manga, he quite literally saw Beerus fight at full power in a free for all between the other gods. We know he had to have gone all out because the Grand Priest threatened them with death if they were caught not fighting with everything they had. You could argue the threat wasn't serious since Belmod cheated with no consequence, but we saw that every god took it to heart. Beerus was even a mess of wounds after it.

I mean, coupled with all the crazy moments of power Beerus showed in the anime as well, it's not a stretch that Goku should have an informed idea where Beerus' power stands. It would be quite absurd to expect he had, and still has, no clue about that.

The Movie continuity doesn't care about what happened in the Manga, so the last confirmed time Movie Goku saw Beerus in action was in BoG, where he was heavily-suppressed.

In the Manga itself, no such claim about Broly is made.

Mixing continuities is a double-edged sword. Were we to do that, then Beerus is stronger than Moro who is stronger than Broly (as stated by Goku), which conclusively disproves Goku's claim about Broly.

And talking about how storytelling works, if it's not to hype Broly at Beerus' expense (hence the sneezing part) please explain what's the subtext behind the bolded part? what was the point in having Goku's uncalled and flawed opinion? what's the narrative relevance in that? what does that accomplish from a storytelling POV?

A gag moment where Beerus sneezes is supposed to corroborrate Goku's claim?

From a storytelling standpoint, Goku guessing that Broly might be stronger than Beerus is the given motivation for Goku visiting Broly on Planet Vampa and giving him food supplies so that he doesn't die of hunger/thirst. As he says literally after, it would be a shame if someone with so much untapped potential as Broly were to die of hunger in a wasteland (which was the situation at the beginning of the movie, before the Frieza Force met Broly).

Goku thinks that Broly is stronger than Beerus and that's why Goku, who is driven by fight, is bothered to go visit Broly on Vampa in the first place. There's nothing more to it.

[Koitsukai]

A gag moment where Beerus sneezes is supposed to corroborrate Goku's claim?

From a storytelling standpoint, Goku guessing that Broly might be stronger than Beerus is the given motivation for Goku visiting Broly on Planet Vampa and giving him food supplies so that he doesn't die of hunger/thirst. As he says literally after, it would be a shame if someone with so much untapped potential as Broly were to die of hunger in a wasteland (which was the situation at the beginning of the movie, before the Frieza Force met Broly).

Goku thinks that Broly is stronger than Beerus and that's why Goku, who is driven by fight, is bothered to go visit Broly on Vampa in the first place. There's nothing more to it.

The bolded.
You said it yourself, keep that in mind, Broly's massive untapped potential is already enough for Goku to be invested in him, he forced a blue fusion in his debut, man. There's no need to bring Beerus into the equation at all for Goku to be drawn to Broly... unless the author is trying to convey something and not just making conversation.
He's excited because of Broly's insane power, not because of how some S-Tier ranking might look with him around.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s important to note that Toriyama's involvement in crafting the dialogue for the Broly movie and his contributions to the original draft and additional elements of the Tournament of Power arc demonstrate his direct influence on the storytelling, as his vision shapes the character interactions and plot developments. The movie continuity may diverge from the manga, since Toyotaro is the one who writes the dialogues, but Toriyama's involvement ensures coherence and relevance within the broader narrative elements.

In regards to Goku's perspective on Broly's strength, Goku's assessments generally stems from his firsthand experiences and encounters. Additionally, comparing power levels between characters like Beerus, Moro, and Broly is not that simple, as strength in Dragon Ball often transcends simple battle power. Moro's strength, for example, may be based on his tenacity and possibly his magical abilities, while Beerus' power comes from his divine techniques. This is also corroborated by how Toriyama wrote the different fighting styles of Goku, Vegeta, Broly and Gohan in chapter #103. Each character's unique strengths play a crucial role in determining their position in these rankings, adding layers of complexity to the discussion.

[Mr Baggins]

Also, I just remembered what Goku told Trunks in the original series:

Trunks: Can you become a Super Saiyan at will?
Goku: Yeah. I couldn't at first, but after a lot of practice I learned to control it.

That's exactly the same verbiage from Broly when he said himself that he couldn't use Super Saiyan at will. So unless someone's a top-notch battle genius like Caulifla, most Saiyans don't just transform once and then immediately have the form accessible for later use; especially Broly, who likely has little to no recollection of what he does as a mindless berserker. They have to practice the feeling needed to trigger and control it at any time on their own first.

In Broly’s case, he's pushed to the edge by Gohan, finally retriggers Super Saiyan, and then controls his rage at the last second (as Gohan does with Beast) so that his unique Super Saiyan form isn't compounded by his berserker tendencies. It's finally his own now, though it still needs work to reach its full potential and probably isn't as strong as it was in the movie.

Still, current Broly is nothing to sneeze at either. All the Saiyans from this chapter are roughly in the same tier, and certainly above anything from the Granolah arc.

[QuakingStar]

Also, I just remembered what Goku told Trunks in the original series:

Trunks: Can you become a Super Saiyan at will?
Goku: Yeah. I couldn't at first, but after a lot of practice I learned to control it.

That's exactly the same verbiage from Broly when he said himself that he couldn't use Super Saiyan at will. So unless someone's a top-notch battle genius like Caulifla, most Saiyans don't just transform once and then immediately have the form accessible for later use; especially Broly, who likely has little to no recollection of what he does as a mindless berserker. They have to practice the feeling needed to trigger and control it at any time on their own first.

In Broly’s case, he's pushed to the edge by Gohan, finally retriggers Super Saiyan, and then controls his rage at the last second (as Gohan does with Beast) so that his unique Super Saiyan form isn't compounded by his berserker tendencies. It's finally his own now, though it still needs work to reach its full potential and probably isn't as strong as it was in the movie.

Still, current Broly is nothing to sneeze at either. All the Saiyans from this chapter are roughly in the same tier, and certainly above anything from the Granolah arc.

Except in the same arc he gets SS he also goes back to base, and turns back into a SS like twice. Though he is visibly angry while a SS. Broly's issue seems to be that if he even attempted to go into SS he would lose all control. Gohan when he first went SS was having trouble controlling himself, though he was already worn out some by that point.

[Yuji]

How strong is Shallot right now? I'm aware he has access to Blue, but where does he fit in the DBS powerscale?

[Mr Baggins]

Except in the same arc he gets SS he also goes back to base, and turns back into a SS like twice. Though he is visibly angry while a SS. Broly's issue seems to be that if he even attempted to go into SS he would lose all control.

Right, but it was clear he was still furious at Freeza. He had to practice using it at will after escaping Namek and presumably calming back down.

Broly was still in base when he started to lose control of himself on Beerus's planet, so I think if he even could still go Super Saiyan (prior to making it his own) he'd have to go berserk first. It's a coin toss since his self-awareness would be gone at that point, which is probably why he said he couldn't transform at will.

How strong is Shallot right now? I'm aware he has access to Blue, but where does he fit in the DBS powerscale?

I don't play DB Legends, but I'd imagine whoever writes the scenarios just makes him as strong as the other Saiyans in equivalent forms.

[Yuji]

I don't play DB Legends, but I'd imagine whoever writes the scenarios just makes him as strong as the other Saiyans in equivalent forms.

Well that's exactly why I ask. "Blue" is a pretty broad tier ranging from the RF Blue to current Blue, and you can fit in a whole lot of characters in there. There's a pretty big difference between RF Freeza and Merged Zamasu or Gamma 1.

[The Monkey King]

It's a popular claim that in the DBS manga Goku and Vegeta didn't absorb SSJG into their base forms.

But if that's the case why does base Vegeta have a SSJG aura when sparing against Goku in the first chapter of the Universe 6 Tournament arc?

Base Vegeta God aura:

Spoiler:

SSJG Goku aura:

Spoiler:

Saiyan Beyond God in RoF manga:

Spoiler:

Maybe it's just a miscolouring or SBG got retconned away in the manga too later on.

[QuakingStar]

It's a popular claim that in the DBS manga Goku and Vegeta didn't absorb SSJG into their base forms.

But if that's the case why does base Vegeta have a SSJG aura when sparing against Goku in the first chapter of the Universe 6 Tournament arc?

Base Vegeta God aura:

Spoiler:

SSJG Goku aura:

Spoiler:

Saiyan Beyond God in RoF manga:

Spoiler:

Maybe it's just a miscolouring or SBG got retconned away in the manga too later on.

Gotta be a miscoloring. The actual SSG form was brought back and that God-like Saiyan state was never used by them again afterwards.

I don't play DB Legends, but I'd imagine whoever writes the scenarios just makes him as strong as the other Saiyans in equivalent forms.

Well that's exactly why I ask. "Blue" is a pretty broad tier ranging from the RF Blue to current Blue, and you can fit in a whole lot of characters in there. There's a pretty big difference between RF Freeza and Merged Zamasu or Gamma 1.

Blue tier is whatever the current Blue level is in the arc it is being talked about. Was Gohan Blue tier in RoF? no. Was Ultimate Gohan at Blue tier in ToP? yes. Is UG Blue tier in SH and after? yes. In fact Potential Unleashed Piccolo is also Blue tier currently. Power creep and power seep will always be a thing in DB. For example 17 became Blue tier with just around 10 years of casual training while protecting monsters on an island and Hit went from SSG tier in the U6 v U7 tournament to SSB tier in the ToP. Does that mean that everyone in the Blue tier for each arc are the same PL? No. Just the same way the term "rival" does not mean "equal".

[Grimlock]

It's a popular claim that in the DBS manga Goku and Vegeta didn't absorb SSJG into their base forms.

Wait, what!? How can they transform into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan then!?

[Thani]

It's a popular claim that in the DBS manga Goku and Vegeta didn't absorb SSJG into their base forms.

Wait, what!? How can they transform into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan then!?

The manga just treats SSGSS as the "next stage" of Super Saiyan God, like SS2 and 3 are to the base SS. Beerus even calls it "just a mere power up from Super Saiyan God".

Spoiler:

So I'm guessing they just trained for it. They kept the Super Saiyan God transformation and then trained to unlock the next level, which was Blue.