Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

It's funny how some have come to the conclusion that all the gods of destruction are near each other in power. Yet the story completely contradicts such fiction. Jiren was only stronger than Belmond in both continuities. Not all the gods, proving all their powers vary.

I know you're sticking to Toriyama old interview but you can't keep assuming every piece of evidence of Beerus' power is intentionally false just so it might be retconned again later. Beerus and Champa have had a sibling rivalry and it wasn't clear if there was ever a winner during their fights. All we know is that Beerus is slightly stronger but it's apparently not a big enough gap for him to easily win. In the GoD battle royale, only three of them were still conscious by the end and badly injured which could indicate that the difference between them and Beerus is even less than between Beerus and Champa. Beerus could still be the strongest GoD but I think all the evidence points to them all being relatively close.

I know the DB fandom is notorious for theorizing but established facts can not be ignored. The god battle was an off-paneled; an anything goes free for all Royale. It does not determine who is stronger in comparison. There were cheap shots, tag teams, surprise attacks, etc. It's not a fair assessment of each individual power of the gods in relation to each other.

Secondly, to further the fact, It's been two/three arcs since that god battle and the "strongest" villain required the "strongest" fusion. Yet Beerus was still used as a benchmark. This is an upgrade from the Future Trunks arc. Where a weaker fusion in Vegetto Blue was questioned concerning Beerus then but is no longer relevant now due to Gogeta's appearance.

[Skar]

I know the DB fandom is notorious for theorizing but established facts can not be ignored. The god battle was an off-paneled; an anything goes free for all Royale. It does not determine who is stronger in comparison. There were cheap shots, tag teams, surprise attacks, etc. It's not a fair assessment of each individual power of the gods in relation to each other.

I agree established facts can't be ignored but the disagreement this whole time is that only you're able to decide what counts as an established fact. A direct statement in the story is generally considered a fact unless it's disputed later in the story but you're arguing they're all false because they might conflict with what Toriyama said during BoG. If that was the intention, it would basically require Toriyama to think "I hope the fans read and remember this interview so they'll know that any reference to Beerus or GoDs in general will be false and shouldn't be taken at face value".

Secondly, to further the fact, It's been two/three arcs since that god battle and the "strongest" villain required the "strongest" fusion. Yet Beerus was still used as a benchmark. This is an upgrade from the Future Trunks arc. Where a weaker fusion in Vegetto Blue was questioned concerning Beerus then but is no longer relevant now due to Gogeta's appearance.

It's actually consistent because Vegetto was thought to be as strong as Beerus and a fusion two arcs later was stronger than Broly who was the one compared to Beerus that arc. Beerus could still be used as a benchmark for Goku himself because Goku hasn't fully mastered UI yet.

[Miracles]

I know the DB fandom is notorious for theorizing but established facts can not be ignored. The god battle was an off-paneled; an anything goes free for all Royale. It does not determine who is stronger in comparison. There were cheap shots, tag teams, surprise attacks, etc. It's not a fair assessment of each individual power of the gods in relation to each other.

I agree established facts can't be ignored but the disagreement this whole time is that only you're able to decide what counts as an established fact. A direct statement in the story is generally considered a fact unless it's disputed later in the story but you're arguing they're all false because they might conflict with what Toriyama said during BoG. If that was the intention, it would basically require Toriyama to think "I hope the fans read and remember this interview so they'll know that any reference to Beerus or GoDs in general will be false and shouldn't be taken at face value".

Secondly, to further the fact, It's been two/three arcs since that god battle and the "strongest" villain required the "strongest" fusion. Yet Beerus was still used as a benchmark. This is an upgrade from the Future Trunks arc. Where a weaker fusion in Vegetto Blue was questioned concerning Beerus then but is no longer relevant now due to Gogeta's appearance.

It's actually consistent because Vegetto was thought to be as strong as Beerus and a fusion two arcs later was stronger than Broly who was the one compared to Beerus that arc. Beerus could still be used as a benchmark for Goku himself because Goku hasn't fully mastered UI yet.

It's not consistent when Gogeta is much more powerful than Vegetto from four arcs ago. Which was needed for Broly. No Way FT Vegetto compares to Broly. Since a stronger fusion was needed. This demonstrates Toriyama's power escalation point. People don't need to read the interview to see that.

Also, please show me the "direct statements" that scale Beerus? I'll show you where there direct assumptions.

[Skar]

It's not consistent when Gogeta is much more powerful than Vegetto from four arcs ago. Which was needed for Broly. No Way Vegetto compares to Broly. Since a stronger fusion was needed. This demonstrates Toriyama's power escalation point. People don't need to read the interview to see that.

Also, please show me the "direct statements" that scale Beerus? I'll show you where there direct assumptions.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Of course it's escalation because Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than they were last time they fused. We don't know how much they improved since they upgrades to Blue don't seem to be part of Toriyama's outlines. If Vegetto from two arcs ago fought Broly then it would've been a more even fight since they were both compared to Beerus.

We've been over them throughout this discussion. The direct statements are what the characters have flat-out said in the story regarding Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly. The assumptions are from us. I assume they're true until they're disputed in the story while you're assuming that Toriyama intents for us to consider them all false.

[Miracles]

It's not consistent when Gogeta is much more powerful than Vegetto from four arcs ago. Which was needed for Broly. No Way Vegetto compares to Broly. Since a stronger fusion was needed. This demonstrates Toriyama's power escalation point. People don't need to read the interview to see that.

Also, please show me the "direct statements" that scale Beerus? I'll show you where there direct assumptions.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Of course it's escalation because Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than they were last time they fused. If Vegetto from two arcs ago fought Broly then it would've been a more even fight since they were both compared to Beerus.

We've been over them throughout this discussion. The direct statements are what the characters have flat-out said in the story regarding Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly. The assumptions are from us. I assume they're true until they're disputed in the story while you're assuming that Toriyama intents for us to consider them all false.

I asked you to give me a quote. So I can show you the difference between assumptive "comparisons" and factual "comparisons."

Also, the level of power of the villains grew so drastically [four arcs] that another fusion was needed. Meaning the last fusion is demoted. Therefore, Vegetto from FT is much weaker than Broly.

[Koitsukai]

Vegito was compared to Beerus. Broly was said to be probably stronger than that milestone. So Broly should be a little stronger than FT Vegito Blue. Or to be accurate: "probably" stronger.

Gogeta Blue wiped the floor with the guy compared to Beerus. And as former "person" compared to Beerus himself, his performance ratified what Toyo made Shin say about them. Two arcs later he no longer needs his utmost FP to rival Beerus.

[Skar]

I asked you to give me a quote. So I can show you the difference between assumptive "comparisons" and factual "comparisons."

At this point, all these quotes have been discussed in this thread and you've said they're either all false or the character doesn't know how strong Beerus is because you believe they conflict with what Toriyama said years ago.

lso, the level of power of the villains grew so drastically [four arcs] that another fusion was needed. Meaning the last fusion is demoted. Therefore, Vegetto from FT is much weaker than Broly.

It's demoted based on the way you're interpreting it. If you take these statements at face value then Vegetto is about as strong as Beerus and stronger than Merged Zamasu since he wasn't compared to Beerus. Jiren was said to be the mortal that a God of Destruction couldn't defeat and he was surpassed by MUI which was the technique that none of the GoDs could master yet. That would put them above Vegetto who is in the same realm of power as the GoDs. Broly was said to probably stronger than Beerus and a stronger Goku and Vegeta fuse to defeat him. There's no indication how much stronger each character is and these statements only give us an idea if that character is close to Beerus or slightly above his power.

[Thani]

"Drastically" isn't quite that much of a realistic point, considering that for most of Super, Goku and Vegeta were more or less on the same realm of power for several arcs.

Goku and Vegeta didn't become drastically stronger in the U6 arc compared to the Golden Freeza arc. Neither did they during the Goku Black arc. In the manga they acquired the completed SSB for the ToP, but that is nothing more than the full power of SSB. An upgrade, but still in that realm. If we go by Toriyama's bullet points, it's just regular SSB at it's full power. When we get to Broly, they're still using SSB as their best form by far, and it was never implied anywhere in the movie they got any stronger between arcs.

So Vegito assessment can absolutely work here. They got stronger? Sure, enough that their fusion now completely trashes Broly at his strongest. Said strongest was stated as >stronger< than Beerus. Which is >exactly< what Shin pondered about Vegito, in the FT arc.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

So it's actually Toriyama's job to give an interview now if he wants the readers to understand that all of this was just red herrings. Otherwise, we have pretty much a tight power comparison right here.

[SupremeKai25]

Do you guys think that Shin's line can also be applied to the anime? Is anime SSB Vegito (and anime Fused Zamasu by extension) around Beerus' level?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Do you guys think that Shin's line can also be applied to the anime? Is anime SSB Vegito (and anime Fused Zamasu by extension) around Beerus' level?

I think it'd still apply, mainly because of how MASSIVE of a boost Fusion-level SSB has to be.

With anime Jiren potentially surpassing Beerus and all other Gods of Destruction by virtue of multiple reputable statements and feats, it would make sense based on scaling escalation alone. Apparently, Dragon Ball FighterZ also somewhat supports this by having unique banter between Jiren and SSB Vegito where Jiren feels like Vegito might almost be on his level.

[Thani]

Do you guys think that Shin's line can also be applied to the anime? Is anime SSB Vegito (and anime Fused Zamasu by extension) around Beerus' level?

Honestly? At this point, I think so. Mostly because of Gogeta Blue: Goku and Vegeta couldn't have become so much more powerful individually, just in Blue, that their fusion now could completely wreck Broly, if their fusion beforehand wasn't already close to that level.

Merged Zamasu would obviously somewhat below that level. Enough to solicit a serious battle from a GoD, but not enough to defeat them without his immortality. I would also say that, as far as consistencies goes, his brief battle with Jiren in SDBH was legit consistent (which, to me, is a rare thing about DBH's anime)

Also SupremeKai25, it's offtopic, but something tells me you'll appreciate this:

Spoiler:

[SupremeKai25]

That I do, don't sleep on Fused Zamasu. He legit damaged Vegito several times.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That I do, don't sleep on Fused Zamasu. He legit damaged Vegito several times.

Also consistent is that he explicitly powered up again before facing Vegito and mostly only accomplished things with his clearly stronger and more heavily corrupted right half; he also didn't really fully power up later on when he bulked up and still seemed relatively even with Vegito.

[Miracles]

I asked you to give me a quote. So I can show you the difference between assumptive "comparisons" and factual "comparisons."

At this point, all these quotes have been discussed in this thread and you've said they're either all false or the character doesn't know how strong Beerus is because you believe they conflict with what Toriyama said years ago.

lso, the level of power of the villains grew so drastically [four arcs] that another fusion was needed. Meaning the last fusion is demoted. Therefore, Vegetto from FT is much weaker than Broly.

It's demoted based on the way you're interpreting it. If you take these statements at face value then Vegetto is about as strong as Beerus and stronger than Merged Zamasu since he wasn't compared to Beerus. Jiren was said to be the mortal that a God of Destruction couldn't defeat and he was surpassed by MUI which was the technique that none of the GoDs could master yet. That would put them above Vegetto who is in the same realm of power as the GoDs. Broly was said to stronger than Beerus and a stronger Goku and Vegeta fuse to defeat him. There's no indication how much stronger each character is and these statements only give us an idea if that character is close to Beerus or slightly above his power.

"Blue Vegetto is just as strong/stronger than Beerus back in FT arc." OK, yet two arcs later, a stronger Blue fusion is needed to defeat someone who is "just as strong/stronger than Beerus." Who was surpassed two arcs ago by Vegetto Blue? Either Beerus is surpassed by a weaker fusion back in Trunks arc or he is stronger than Vegetto Blue since he needs a more powerful fusion to beat him much later.

There is no in between here.

[GodVegetto91]

The only one that I can see making any sort of sense here, is Miracles.

If we look at the actual show (yes, I know Anime, not Manga) but in the Anime at least all evidence points towards a post first time tapping into UI Omen, regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta as already >>>> SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! And that’s not even counting their Kaioken x20 and SSJ Blue Evolution of top of that!

As for the Manga..

SSJ Blue Vegito didn’t do THAT MUCH better against Merged Zamasu than a mere “Completed SSJ Blue” Goku did. The point is, they BOTH gave God Zamasu a run for his money! (Which does not neccesarily make SSJ Blue Vegito look good!)

One Arc later, Vegeta achieves the next transformation on top of that!
(SSJ Blue Evolved!)

So you mean to tell me that the writers still have regular SSJ Blue Vegito (from the Future Trunks Arc no less!) as stronger than a ToP SSJ Blue Evolved Vegeta???!

I’m not buying that.

Even in the manga, I can see that Vegito be not that hard to be surpassed (in my opinion, he is, and should be, somewhere between Completed Blue and SSJ Blue Evolved level based on everything!)

There’s no way in hell he’s equal to Beerus IF Beerus really is at least as strong as Broly!

Because Broly > Jiren > SSJ Blue Vegito (from the Zamasu Arc!)

[Thani]

The only one that I can see making any sort of sense here, is Miracles.

If we look at the actual show (yes, I know Anime, not Manga) but in the Anime at least all evidence points towards a post first time tapping into UI Omen, regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta as already >>>> SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! And that’s not even counting their Kaioken x20 and SSJ Blue Evolution of top of that!

As for the Manga..

SSJ Blue Vegito didn’t do THAT MUCH better against Merged Zamasu than a mere “Completed SSJ Blue” Goku did. The point is, they BOTH gave God Zamasu a run for his money! (Which does not neccesarily make SSJ Blue Vegito look good!)

One Arc later, Vegeta achieves the next transformation on top of that!
(SSJ Blue Evolved!)

So you mean to tell me that the writers still have regular SSJ Blue Vegito (from the Future Trunks Arc no less!) as stronger than a ToP SSJ Blue Evolved Vegeta???!

I’m not buying that.

Even in the manga, I can see that Vegito be not that hard to be surpassed (in my opinion, he is, and should be, somewhere between Completed Blue and SSJ Blue Evolved level based on everything!)

There’s no way in hell he’s equal to Beerus IF Beerus really is at least as strong as Broly!

Because Broly > Jiren > SSJ Blue Vegito (from the Zamasu Arc!)

What.

No, seriously. What.

[Jack Bz]

SSJ Blue Vegito didn’t do THAT MUCH better against Merged Zamasu than a mere “Completed SSJ Blue” Goku did. The point is, they BOTH gave God Zamasu a run for his money! (Which does not neccesarily make SSJ Blue Vegito look good!)

In what world did Vegito not do that much better than Goku vs Zamasu? It's one of the most one-sided fights in the whole manga.

[Thani]

He has to be trolling. Because this

Spoiler:

Is nowhere near the same performance as this

Spoiler:

[Cipher]

Blue fusions being stronger than Beerus indeed seems like one of the most painfully clear cut things in the series, between the dialogue about Vegetto and Gogeta thrashing a character stated to be on Beerus’ level.

Nothing strange about the presentation either. Perfected Blue Goku fights an even match with Zamasu—with Vegeta vs. Beerus the following arc showing is just how much further that form has to go to catch up to Beerus himself—while Vegetto thoroughly and easily dispatches Zamasu. There’s quite a difference in the way their powers are presented against the same opponent. Zamasu can’t lay a hand on Vegetto, and is spared only by the fusion unexpectedly giving out.

[GodVegetto91]

SSJ Blue Vegito from the Zamasu Arc is literally NOTHING compared to a current Beerus, who will turn out to be even stronger than Moro 73 with Merus’ Angel powers absorbed next chapter (mark my words). Then it would be Beerus > Moro 73 with Merus’ Angel powers copied = Angel Merus > MUI Goku > Suppressed Merus > Moro 73 > Prime Moro > Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta > Current UI Omen Goku > Broly > Jiren >>> SSJ Blue Vegito (Future Trunks Arc) > Merged Zamasu!