Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

It takes no thinking on my part since I gave you what the story stated and showed.
People reading the story wrongly [like you did] is at fault, not the story.

The story isn't at fault because it hasn't given us a reason to question what was said about Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly. The only time the author intends for the audience questions what a character says in a fictional story is if it's shown to be false or disputed by another character. I'm not aware of any story that required the audience to interpret lines in the way that you have here.

You are the one creating random rules for DB. Making up plot points. Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power. Yet you say so. That's contradicting the story.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The anime is actually pretty clear. Vegito and Fusion Zamasu are comparable with Vegito being only a little stronger. Jiren shits on Zamasu going by statements from Shin, Goku, and Vegeta and that was before Jiren used any of his actual power. Meaning, Jiren shits on Beerus if he’s only comparable to Vegito or Beerus shits on Vegito if he’s comparable to a suppressed Jiren.

Mmm yeah, that's fair. Although I believe Zamasu without his immortality would've been killed by the FKHH, but yeah, manga Vegito was out of Zamasu's league, being compared to Beerus made sense, while in the anime the difference between them wasn't as massive.

Of course, the anime also massively bumped up Merged Zamasu with multiple power-ups and a corrupted right half that seemed to hold most of the raw power that could rival Vegito from his original base state which seemed to be in a relatively similar league to his manga counterpart.

[Koitsukai]

It takes no thinking on my part since I gave you what the story stated and showed.
People reading the story wrongly [like you did] is at fault, not the story.

The story isn't at fault because it hasn't given us a reason to question what was said about Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly. The only time the author intends for the audience questions what a character says in a fictional story is if it's shown to be false or disputed by another character. I'm not aware of any story that required the audience to interpret lines in the way that you have here.

You are the one creating random rules for DB. Making up plot points. Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power. Yet you say so. That's contradicting the story.

It's one thing to disregard those statements, but now you are saying they never happened????

[GodVegetto91]

On “perfected” SSJ Blue Goku’s level???

[Miracles]

The story isn't at fault because it hasn't given us a reason to question what was said about Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly. The only time the author intends for the audience questions what a character says in a fictional story is if it's shown to be false or disputed by another character. I'm not aware of any story that required the audience to interpret lines in the way that you have here.

You are the one creating random rules for DB. Making up plot points. Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power. Yet you say so. That's contradicting the story.

It's one thing to disregard those statements, but now you are saying they never happened????

Can you show me in story where they said they are stronger/just as strong as Beerus.

[Koitsukai]

You are the one creating random rules for DB. Making up plot points. Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power. Yet you say so. That's contradicting the story.

It's one thing to disregard those statements, but now you are saying they never happened????

Can you show me where they said they are stronger/just as strong as Beerus.

Oh come on, you've read the manga and watched the movie, you don't need the scans.

Just to be sure, you are saying Shin's statement and Goku's never happened, right?

[Miracles]

It's one thing to disregard those statements, but now you are saying they never happened????

Can you show me where they said they are stronger/just as strong as Beerus.

Oh come on, you've read the manga and watched the movie, you don't need the scans.

Just to be sure, you are saying Shin's statement and Goku's never happened, right?

Wrong again. The statements happened but they don't say what you guys claim.

[Koitsukai]

Can you show me where they said they are stronger/just as strong as Beerus.

Oh come on, you've read the manga and watched the movie, you don't need the scans.

Just to be sure, you are saying Shin's statement and Goku's never happened, right?

Wrong again. The statements happened but they don't say what you guys claim.

So I'm wrong about this you just wrote an hour ago? :

Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power

[Miracles]

Oh come on, you've read the manga and watched the movie, you don't need the scans.

Just to be sure, you are saying Shin's statement and Goku's never happened, right?

Wrong again. The statements happened but they don't say what you guys claim.

So I'm wrong about this you just wrote an hour ago? :

Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power

My post never says the story's actual statements didn't happen. However, it says what you guys claim never happened.

[Koitsukai]

Wrong again. The statements happened but they don't say what you guys claim.

So I'm wrong about this you just wrote an hour ago? :

Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power

My post never says the story's actual statements didn't happen. However, it says what you guys claim never happened.

Yes, it does, it's right there!! What else could BILLY AND PAUL WERE NEVER STATED TO BE STRONGER OR NEAR BOB'S POWER mean?

You said the statements WERE NEVER there, not that the statements meant something else like you are doing now, and there was no "probably" in the sentence to believe there could be another interpretation to it.

[Magnificent Ponta]

My post never says the story's actual statements didn't happen. However, it says what you guys claim never happened.

Then please use this opportunity to be clear and specific. What does Shin mean when he says:

"A-Amazing...this is incredible...! The power of Vegerot Blue...could it....already be greater than Lord Beerus's?!"

And what does Goku mean when he says:

"I was so sure of my own strength, but then the much stronger Broly showed up. And what's more, he's a Saiyan, too, just like me. He's probably even stronger than Beerus-Sama. Beerus-Sama is this God, you see."

I'm really hoping that there's something more to this than Shin's statement being phrased as a question, and Goku using the word 'probably'. Please tell me that isn't it.

[Miracles]

So I'm wrong about this you just wrote an hour ago? :

My post never says the story's actual statements didn't happen. However, it says what you guys claim never happened.

Yes, it does, it's right there!! What else could BILLY AND PAUL WERE NEVER STATED TO BE STRONGER OR NEAR BOB'S POWER mean?

You said the statements WERE NEVER there, not that the statements meant something else like you are doing now, and there was no "probably" in the sentence to believe there could be another interpretation to it.

Man, your reading is so bad. This is why you guys are wrong about the story. Look at the last pages between Skar and I. I address those statements as existent. But you already know that. But since you have no canonical ground to stand on you are attempting at gaslighting. Trying to pretend I don't think they ever happened.

My post never says the story's actual statements didn't happen. However, it says what you guys claim never happened.

Then please use this opportunity to be clear and specific. What does Shin mean when he says:

"A-Amazing...this is incredible...! The power of Vegerot Blue...could it....already be greater than Lord Beerus's?!"

And what does Goku mean when he says:

"I was so sure of my own strength, but then the much stronger Broly showed up. And what's more, he's a Saiyan, too, just like me. He's probably even stronger than Beerus-Sama. Beerus-Sama is this God, you see."

I'm really hoping that there's something more to this than Shin's statement being phrased as a question, and Goku using the word 'probably'. Please tell me that isn't it.

Look over the last pages. Don't jump in the water if you don't know the temperature.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Seems like we got em.

Alright folks, so how much stronger do you think all these guys are than Beerus with these statements in mind?

[Magnificent Ponta]

Look over the last pages. Don't jump in the water if you don't know the temperature.

I have done so; and unless this response is simply another way of saying "yes, that is all there is to it - they say 'probably', which gives us wiggle room", then I'm not sure you've taken the opportunity to be clear, because I asked you quite directly to tell me what those characters meant when they said those things.

Your previous posts don't address this question adequately because you're arguing about your interpretation of Toriyama's broader story intention. I'm asking for a play-by-play of what Shin and Goku mean when they say what I quoted.

[Miracles]

Look over the last pages. Don't jump in the water if you don't know the temperature.

I have done so; and unless this response is simply another way of saying "yes, that is all there is to it - they say 'probably', which gives us wiggle room", then I'm not sure you've taken the opportunity to be clear, because I asked you quite directly to tell me what those characters meant when they said those things.

Your previous posts don't address this question adequately because you're arguing about your interpretation of Toriyama's broader story intention. I'm asking for a play-by-play of what Shin and Goku mean when they say what I quoted.

You didn't read over the discussion. Since you would see the story states those statements as non factual.
So they don't mean said characters are stronger than Beerus. To say so is headcanon.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Look over the last pages. Don't jump in the water if you don't know the temperature.

I have done so; and unless this response is simply another way of saying "yes, that is all there is to it - they say 'probably', which gives us wiggle room", then I'm not sure you've taken the opportunity to be clear, because I asked you quite directly to tell me what those characters meant when they said those things.

Your previous posts don't address this question adequately because you're arguing about your interpretation of Toriyama's broader story intention. I'm asking for a play-by-play of what Shin and Goku mean when they say what I quoted.

Yuo didn't read over the discussion cause you would see I say those statements are non factual. So they don't mean said characters are stronger than Beerus. To say so is headcanon.

Respectfully, I did see that; I just don't see how it answers my question, which is pointed specifically at two direct data: What do Shin and Goku mean when they say what they say? To argue that they're wrong or making assumptions is responding to a different question than the one I asked.

[Skar]

You are the one creating random rules for DB. Making up plot points. Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power. Yet you say so. That's contradicting the story.

What random rules? This is basic storytelling that applies to every fictional story I've ever seen. Do you know of any author that has intended for their audience to interpret the story the way you have? If the author has a character make a false claim, it's proven to be false shortly after. In my last comment, I pointed out that I looked through the Strength Checker for the words "probably" and "maybe". Every time the character was wrong it was confirmed before the end of that arc.

If you're saying it might be confirmed in a future arc that Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly are far weaker than Beerus, that's fine because we have no idea what's going to happen. That would at least make more sense than arguing we should ignore these statements when they haven't been disputed by any other character since then.

[Miracles]

I have done so; and unless this response is simply another way of saying "yes, that is all there is to it - they say 'probably', which gives us wiggle room", then I'm not sure you've taken the opportunity to be clear, because I asked you quite directly to tell me what those characters meant when they said those things.

Your previous posts don't address this question adequately because you're arguing about your interpretation of Toriyama's broader story intention. I'm asking for a play-by-play of what Shin and Goku mean when they say what I quoted.

Yuo didn't read over the discussion cause you would see I say those statements are non factual. So they don't mean said characters are stronger than Beerus. To say so is headcanon.

Respectfully, I did see that; I just don't see how it answers my question, which is pointed specifically at two direct data: What do Shin and Goku mean when they say what they say? To argue that they're wrong or making assumptions is responding to a different question than the one I asked.

No it answers the question. They mean that their statements are uncertainties. They don't mean absolute fact.

You are the one creating random rules for DB. Making up plot points. Since Future Trunks Vegetto, Last arc Broly and TOP Jiren were never stated to be stronger or near Beerus's power. Yet you say so. That's contradicting the story.

What random rules? This is basic storytelling that applies to every fictional story I've ever seen. Do you know of any author that has intended for their audience to interpret the story the way you have? If the author has a character make a false claim, it's proven to be false shortly after. In my last comment, I pointed out that I looked through the Strength Checker for the words "probably" and "maybe". Every time the character was wrong it was confirmed before the end of that arc.

If you're saying it might be confirmed in a future arc that Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly are far weaker than Beerus, that's fine because we have no idea what's going to happen. That would at least make more sense than arguing we should ignore these statements when they haven't been disputed by any other character since then.

I state what the story states. The statements made aren't fact due to the words used in them like probably and maybe. You claim they are true despite the story claiming they are simply assumptions. You are just posting your feelings.

[Magnificent Ponta]

No it answers the question. They mean that their statements are uncertainties. They don't mean absolute fact.

I hate to press you on this, but no, it really doesn't answer my question at all, because you are ignoring it. You interpret their statements as uncertainties, and that's fine and all. But I did not ask for your interpretation, because I already know it.

What I asked for (and this is the fourth time, now) was what do Shin and Goku mean when they make their statements? What are they trying to convey about what they think? That is what I want a response to. Not your view on whether they are correct or not (again, I know it), but what are they saying?

Unless your position is that they don't know what they think or what they're saying, then presumably they are proffering some sort of view, thought, or belief. What is that view, as expressed in those statements? Please could you answer this question?

[Jack Bz]

If Toriyama really did intend for Beerus to have always been stronger than Broly, Vegetto Blue etc, I have to question why those statements were ever made. But at the same time, there's definitely a track record of that happening before.

Beerus' power is certainly a moving goalpost. There's battle of gods of course, but then in the RoF film Whis says that Goku and Vegeta together in their blue forms could beat Beerus. And then the Broly movie states that Broly is "probably stronger than Beerus", meaning Goku thinks Broly is probably around Beerus' power or better, and Goku and Vegeta were certainly not anywhere close to beating Broly working together outside of fusion. So even just within the film continuity itself, Beerus' power has been retconned repeatedly with each film (and it can't be argued that Whis didn't know how strong Beerus was when he said Goku and Vegeta working together could beat him, as he knows Beerus' strength better than anyone besides Beerus himself).

I do think that if Goku and Beerus have a rematch that it would be written to be a pretty even and difficult fight for both of them. However, I'd be disappointed if there wasn't some surprise expressed that Beerus can keep up with Goku/a reveal that Beerus has been training since the ToP.

I also question if a rematch will even happen. I think everyone assumed Goku and Piccolo would eventually rematch, but that never happened. It certainly would be a surprise if it did happen and then Goku beats Beerus around silly.

If the story ended right now, I would have to take Shin and Goku's statements about Beerus' strength at face value that Vegetto and Broly really were beyond Beerus.