Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think we also have to consider the Broly movie, which shows SSG as stronger than the normal Super Saiyan forms but not by an absolutely massive amount, more akin to the difference between base and Super Saiyan forms. Large, but a fighter on a similarly lower level can still fight that higher level somewhat.

The gap's closer between SSG (which is presumed to be at a similar level to before for simplicity's sake) and base and Super Saiyan than before, that much is for certain.

I think having either the base or Super Saiyan forms for Goku, Vegeta, and other comparable characters equal to Majin Buu is the best compromise we can make. Doesn't completely neglect the gains of the characters in attaining godly power, doesn't completely break the power scale, helpfully shows that the gap between forms isn't lightyears of difference.

[Mr Baggins]

I don't think Toriyama and Toyotaro anguish over exactly how big the power gaps are portrayed, and that's fine because it's a story, not a numbers graph. What matters is that the gaps exist and they're significant, which is what DBS Broly upholds.

For me the problems arise only when there are glaring inconsistencies and retcons, like the anime stating that Super Saiyan Goku breached god level in its first story arc only to then assert he suddenly breached it when going from SS2 to Blue in its final story arc. That's nonsense. It's all over the place.

There's always too much stuff to try and explain away or reconcile when all is said and done, and I came to realize very quickly that there was only so much my theories and personal headcanon could realistically account for before it's all just a moot point (unless you don't mind getting into "death of the author" territory, in which case, you do you!).

Toei was definitely pushing the outstanding base form levels, but Toriyama and Toyo weren't.

But also, this. In the manga and in Broly, we don't actually need to posit anything like the forms having diminishing gaps. I don't think that's neccessary, nor was it really implied. Maybe we should for the TV series, but again, nothing is off the table there.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I think having either the base or Super Saiyan forms for Goku, Vegeta, and other comparable characters equal to Majin Buu is the best compromise we can make.

It's quite likely it's where they lie in Base form.

Goku did match, though did eventually "lose" to slim Buu.

If anything I'd say the whole Trio De Dangers is the best means of comparison if you assumed all three were roughly the same level.

Super Saiyan Gohan was slightly above Lavender while Good Buu was comfortably above Basil.

Goku was pretty much on par with Bergamo.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think having either the base or Super Saiyan forms for Goku, Vegeta, and other comparable characters equal to Majin Buu is the best compromise we can make.

It's quite likely it's where they lie in Base form.

Goku did match, though did eventually "lose" to slim Buu.

If anything I'd say the whole Trio De Dangers is the best means of comparison if you assumed all three were roughly the same level.

Super Saiyan Gohan was slightly above Lavender while Good Buu was comfortably above Basil.

Goku was pretty much on par with Bergamo.

It also provides a good baseline for Freeza. His true form sits at the level of one of the only beings his father ever told him not to mess with, and if he goes 100% he can match his dreaded rival in Super Saiyan form.

[ZombieVito]

I think we also have to consider the Broly movie, which shows SSG as stronger than the normal Super Saiyan forms but not by an absolutely massive amount, more akin to the difference between base and Super Saiyan forms. Large, but a fighter on a similarly lower level can still fight that higher level somewhat.

The gap's closer between SSG (which is presumed to be at a similar level to before for simplicity's sake) and base and Super Saiyan than before, that much is for certain.

I think having either the base or Super Saiyan forms for Goku, Vegeta, and other comparable characters equal to Majin Buu is the best compromise we can make. Doesn't completely neglect the gains of the characters in attaining godly power, doesn't completely break the power scale, helpfully shows that the gap between forms isn't lightyears of difference.

So you think SS3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan would have pushed Final form Freeza to turn Golden in RoF?

[Hugo Boss]

since not only his SS2 isn’t as strong as his SSG was back then

Is there proof for this? Did anyone ever remark that the "God power in Base and SS forms" was just a temporary condition?

This was never directly stated, but subtext swiftly demonstrates it. SS2 Goku had an evenly match against SS2 Trunks and SS2 Caulifla, who were far below SSG’s level. There is also SS Goku’s evenly match against SS Gohan, who hadn’t been keeping his training. This is just one of the minor inconsistencies in the power progression.

[Aizamasu]

I was just thinking about how in the manga U6 tournament Goku using just a regular Super saiyan was doing better against Hit than Vegeta who was using 1/10th of the power of SSB. I know it was mostly because Goku already knew about Hit’s timeskip but could SSB only be around 10 times stronger than regular Super saiyan in the manga? I don’t think either Toriyama or Toyotaro use any set multipliers for the different Super saiyan forms but the power ups from the different forms seem to be much lower than the ”official multipliers” in the manga. At least we know that SSG is much more than 1/10th of Blue since Goku was easily beating Hit in SSG.

[SupremeKai25]

since not only his SS2 isn’t as strong as his SSG was back then

Is there proof for this? Did anyone ever remark that the "God power in Base and SS forms" was just a temporary condition?

This was never directly stated, but subtext swiftly demonstrates it. SS2 Goku had an evenly match against SS2 Trunks and SS2 Caulifla, who were far below SSG’s level. There is also SS Goku’s evenly match against SS Gohan, who hadn’t been keeping his training. This is just one of the minor inconsistencies in the power progression.

SS2 Trunks was able to parry and pressure SSR Black at one point and he also stabbed Future Zamasu who earlier was able to completely overwhelm SSB Goku.

So he's still God tier, the power levels in the Anime are just that high.

If Caulifla is that weak then it doesn't explain how Kefla can fight Omen Goku and even replicate the original power of the U7's Spirit Bomb, that would make Kale a powerhouse but she was no match for the actual SSG. So you're underrating Caulifla massively here.

Either way none of these people can be weaker than anyone from Z due to that statement from BoG.

[Yuji]

Base Goku ties with Roshi, gets manhandled by a Pride Trooper that 18 dispatches in one hit, and has a pretty even sparring match with Kuririn to the point he's forced to turn SS to avoid being overpowered. SS Goku was even with a Great Saiyaman which hadn't been training and got challenged by Kuririn as well.

Unless you want to believe that people who haven't been training surpassed every Z God tier along with SSG Goku which should have dwarfed Boo arc SS Vegetto, and you believe this was authorial intent, then believing the retcon is the only way to make any sense of it. Or, if you want to remain internally consistent, believe the two-base theory.

[Koitsukai]

Base Goku ties with Roshi, gets manhandled by a Pride Trooper that 18 dispatches in one hit, and has a pretty even sparring match with Kuririn to the point he's forced to turn SS to avoid being overpowered. SS Goku was even with a Great Saiyaman which hadn't been training and got challenged by Kuririn as well.

Unless you want to believe that people who haven't been training surpassed every Z God tier along with SSG Goku which should have dwarfed Boo arc SS Vegetto, and you believe this was authorial intent, then believing the retcon is the only way to make any sense of it. Or, if you want to remain internally consistent, believe the two-base theory.

I knew the ToP contradicted what was previously established in filler-ish episodes and was pretty much on the same page as the manga, but didn't remember which were those contradictions. He also "loses" to Fit Buu, said to be just faster than before. To add more confusion, he and Freeza punch each other as if they were equals.

SS2 Trunks is part of the inconsistencies, he gets oneshot by SS3 Goku, yet he can "fight" SSR Black, when he couldn't even face base Black before, so SS3 Goku should be more than enough for Black but his SSB wasn't. To make sense of this we must drop the outlier: Trunks fighting Rose, or believe Trunks got stronger than ever after just sparring for 10 minutes with daddy using a form he never uses.

If we take everything at face value, Tenshinhan's student, Yurin should wipe out Buuhan without even trying.

[SupremeKai25]

Base Goku ties with Roshi, gets manhandled by a Pride Trooper that 18 dispatches in one hit, and has a pretty even sparring match with Kuririn to the point he's forced to turn SS to avoid being overpowered. SS Goku was even with a Great Saiyaman which hadn't been training and got challenged by Kuririn as well.

Unless you want to believe that people who haven't been training surpassed every Z God tier along with SSG Goku which should have dwarfed Boo arc SS Vegetto, and you believe this was authorial intent, then believing the retcon is the only way to make any sense of it. Or, if you want to remain internally consistent, believe the two-base theory.

Nothing unusual with any of that. Goku was using an insignificant % of his real power to spar with Roshi and Krillin, no different than what Beerus was doing with him in BoG.

As for the Pride Trooper, again he was restricting himself massively as to avoid killing the fodder, that would get him erased.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Of course, there's also Piccolo and Gohan being synced up as equal level fighters against Saonel and Pirina before those 2 used their full power. Goku tanking an attack like how Piccolo did before in their fight during the 23rd TB when the 2 of them were pretty much dead even, Goku and Freeza going at it against Jiren in their depleted base forms.

Heck during that particular last fight, Jiren displays both kinds of sandbagging. He doesn't take hits well from Goku and Freea, but then later on is able to charge straight through 17's Ki blasts without any kind of damage.

[Xeno Goku Black]

SS2 Trunks was able to parry and pressure SSR Black at one point and he also stabbed Future Zamasu who earlier was able to completely overwhelm SSB Goku.

Meaningless. Goku Black took on all three at once and kicked each aside like trash later on as well. Weak characters have had their moments against stronger characters before, Tien pressured Cell and Roshi pressured Goku.

Him stabbing Future Zamasu means little too as he was also only on Trunks level.

[SupremeKai25]

SS2 Trunks was able to parry and pressure SSR Black at one point and he also stabbed Future Zamasu who earlier was able to completely overwhelm SSB Goku.

Meaningless. Goku Black took on all three at once and kicked each aside like trash later on as well. Weak characters have had their moments against stronger characters before, Tien pressured Cell and Roshi pressured Goku.

Him stabbing Future Zamasu means little too as he was also only on Trunks level.

Cherry-picking feats at its finest.

[Hugo Boss]

Is there proof for this? Did anyone ever remark that the "God power in Base and SS forms" was just a temporary condition?

This was never directly stated, but subtext swiftly demonstrates it. SS2 Goku had an evenly match against SS2 Trunks and SS2 Caulifla, who were far below SSG’s level. There is also SS Goku’s evenly match against SS Gohan, who hadn’t been keeping his training. This is just one of the minor inconsistencies in the power progression.

SS2 Trunks was able to parry and pressure SSR Black at one point and he also stabbed Future Zamasu who earlier was able to completely overwhelm SSB Goku.

So he's still God tier, the power levels in the Anime are just that high.

If Caulifla is that weak then it doesn't explain how Kefla can fight Omen Goku and even replicate the original power of the U7's Spirit Bomb, that would make Kale a powerhouse but she was no match for the actual SSG. So you're underrating Caulifla massively here.

Either way none of these people can be weaker than anyone from Z due to that statement from BoG.

SS2 Trunks was weaker than Base Black, so that was only a fluke. Future Zamasu wasn’t anywhere near SSB Goku either, since he was weaker than Base Black as well.

I’m not sure how Kefla’s performance is dependent on how strong Caulifla is, since not only we are talking about a fusion, which doesn’t follow any rules, but also Kale is the strongest component.

The anime just wasn’t consistent about the power gaps in the fights. But you can still infer from subtext where they fit. If you ignore it in favor of scrutinizing every fight, you end up with Zamasu, Trunks, Gohan, Caulifla and Kyabe with base forms in SSG’s vicinity, which doesn’t seem to be what the show is trying to tell us. Not to mention Boo, Piccolo, No.18, Krillin and Roshi.

[SupremeKai25]

This was never directly stated, but subtext swiftly demonstrates it. SS2 Goku had an evenly match against SS2 Trunks and SS2 Caulifla, who were far below SSG’s level. There is also SS Goku’s evenly match against SS Gohan, who hadn’t been keeping his training. This is just one of the minor inconsistencies in the power progression.

SS2 Trunks was able to parry and pressure SSR Black at one point and he also stabbed Future Zamasu who earlier was able to completely overwhelm SSB Goku.

So he's still God tier, the power levels in the Anime are just that high.

If Caulifla is that weak then it doesn't explain how Kefla can fight Omen Goku and even replicate the original power of the U7's Spirit Bomb, that would make Kale a powerhouse but she was no match for the actual SSG. So you're underrating Caulifla massively here.

Either way none of these people can be weaker than anyone from Z due to that statement from BoG.

SS2 Trunks was weaker than Base Black, so that was only a fluke. Future Zamasu wasn’t anywhere near SSB Goku either, since he was weaker than Base Black as well.

"Wasn't near SSB Goku"

Fights evenly and overpowers him after SSB Goku charges his aura (which is a sign that the fighter is going all out):

https://youtu.be/W-ZGERt2Bvw?t=71


Yes, sure, I agree that Goku didn't absorb God power into his weaker forms at the end of BoG, and that the statement got retconned, if we dismiss all these feats as "flukes"

[Yuji]

Base Goku ties with Roshi, gets manhandled by a Pride Trooper that 18 dispatches in one hit, and has a pretty even sparring match with Kuririn to the point he's forced to turn SS to avoid being overpowered. SS Goku was even with a Great Saiyaman which hadn't been training and got challenged by Kuririn as well.

Unless you want to believe that people who haven't been training surpassed every Z God tier along with SSG Goku which should have dwarfed Boo arc SS Vegetto, and you believe this was authorial intent, then believing the retcon is the only way to make any sense of it. Or, if you want to remain internally consistent, believe the two-base theory.

Nothing unusual with any of that. Goku was using an insignificant % of his real power to spar with Roshi and Krillin, no different than what Beerus was doing with him in BoG.

As for the Pride Trooper, again he was restricting himself massively as to avoid killing the fodder, that would get him erased.

You can't handwave everything with "Goku was suppressing himself to 0.00001%" when he shows difficulty and exertion. If Goku can control himself that well, then why not boost his power to free himself of the Pride Trooper? Why turn SS to avoid being ringed out by Kuririn instead of simply powering up in base form? Why turn SS to fight Gohan instead of just using his base form?

At this point you either consider that Goku is using a fraction of his power against every opponent and pretending to have trouble facing them for no reason, using stronger forms for no reason when the base would be enough, or that he simply isn't that strong. Pick one.

[Hugo Boss]

SS2 Trunks was able to parry and pressure SSR Black at one point and he also stabbed Future Zamasu who earlier was able to completely overwhelm SSB Goku.

So he's still God tier, the power levels in the Anime are just that high.

If Caulifla is that weak then it doesn't explain how Kefla can fight Omen Goku and even replicate the original power of the U7's Spirit Bomb, that would make Kale a powerhouse but she was no match for the actual SSG. So you're underrating Caulifla massively here.

Either way none of these people can be weaker than anyone from Z due to that statement from BoG.

SS2 Trunks was weaker than Base Black, so that was only a fluke. Future Zamasu wasn’t anywhere near SSB Goku either, since he was weaker than Base Black as well.

"Wasn't near SSB Goku"

Fights evenly and overpowers him after SSB Goku charges his aura (which is a sign that the fighter is going all out):

https://youtu.be/W-ZGERt2Bvw?t=71

Yes, sure, I agree that Goku didn't absorb God power into his weaker forms at the end of BoG, and that the statement got retconned, if we dismiss all these feats as "flukes"

You can roll your eyes as much as you want, but the clip you linked is just a demonstration of how messy the anime fights are in the battle power aspect.

The story being told is that Zamas realized he wasn’t even strong enough to defeat one Saiyan, so he had to come up with a plan and team up with someone strong enough to carry on his goal. So, he went to Zuno and collected Super Dragon Balls, stealed Goku’s body to get stronger and made another version of himself immortal.

If all he needed was to make himself immortal and he really was on the level of the other gods in terms of power, why having the trouble to steal Goku’s body if he could accomplish on his own what you are trying to suggest?

[SupremeKai25]

Base Goku ties with Roshi, gets manhandled by a Pride Trooper that 18 dispatches in one hit, and has a pretty even sparring match with Kuririn to the point he's forced to turn SS to avoid being overpowered. SS Goku was even with a Great Saiyaman which hadn't been training and got challenged by Kuririn as well.

Unless you want to believe that people who haven't been training surpassed every Z God tier along with SSG Goku which should have dwarfed Boo arc SS Vegetto, and you believe this was authorial intent, then believing the retcon is the only way to make any sense of it. Or, if you want to remain internally consistent, believe the two-base theory.

Nothing unusual with any of that. Goku was using an insignificant % of his real power to spar with Roshi and Krillin, no different than what Beerus was doing with him in BoG.

As for the Pride Trooper, again he was restricting himself massively as to avoid killing the fodder, that would get him erased.

You can't handwave everything with "Goku was suppressing himself to 0.00001%" when he shows difficulty and exertion. If Goku can control himself that well, then why not boost his power to free himself of the Pride Trooper? Why turn SS to avoid being ringed out by Kuririn instead of simply powering up in base form? Why turn SS to fight Gohan instead of just using his base form?

At this point you either consider that Goku is using a fraction of his power against every opponent and pretending to have trouble facing them for no reason, using stronger forms for no reason when the base would be enough, or that he simply isn't that strong. Pick one.

Beerus was using like 10% of his real power (possibly even less with recent developments/retcons from the manga) against Goku in BoG and he was still showing some signs of fatigue and sweat.

It's not a perfect justification but it works for me and I have yet to see anything (from Toei) that contradicts the statement Goku made in the BoG arc, about retaining the power of God in his SS2 form.

We even have a statement from the Anime databook guide that Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's version of Super Saiyan, which means that Super Saiyan has become that valuable in Super.

SS2 Trunks was weaker than Base Black, so that was only a fluke. Future Zamasu wasn’t anywhere near SSB Goku either, since he was weaker than Base Black as well.

"Wasn't near SSB Goku"

Fights evenly and overpowers him after SSB Goku charges his aura (which is a sign that the fighter is going all out):

https://youtu.be/W-ZGERt2Bvw?t=71

Yes, sure, I agree that Goku didn't absorb God power into his weaker forms at the end of BoG, and that the statement got retconned, if we dismiss all these feats as "flukes"

You can roll your eyes as much as you want, but the clip you linked is just a demonstration of how messy the anime fights are in the battle power aspect.

The story being told is that Zamas realized he wasn’t even strong enough to defeat one Saiyan, so he had to come up with a plan and team up with someone strong enough to carry on his goal. So, he went to Zuno and collected Super Dragon Balls, stealed Goku’s body to get stronger and made another version of himself immortal.

If all he needed was to make himself immortal and he really was on the level of the other gods in terms of power, why having the trouble to steal Goku’s body if he could accomplish on his own what you are trying to suggest?

It's messy but it still happened and thus it's Canon.

Black still vastly outclasses Future Zamasu in terms of potential. Especially in light of the Granolah arc, imagine if Black somehow managed to unlock Ultra Ego and/or Ultra Instinct. You can see why wishing for Goku's body gave him a boost in terms of battle power than Immortality.

Black's potential was cut short but it doesn't change the fact that he vastly outclassed the other Zamasu in that department.

[Hugo Boss]

It's messy but it still happened and thus it's Canon.

Then you can cherry-pick what “canon” aspect you like more and makes more sense to you. One particular fight in which he performs more or less on the same page as SSB. Or the others in which he loses to SS2. Or you can say the gap between the Super Saiyan forms is meaningless.

I honestly don’t think Zamasu ever considered Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego. Based on his experience and the clip he watched, it seems his goal was only Super Saiyan (Blue). He never even attempted to use kaioken.