Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
-
- Regular
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
AFAIK Toshio never ranked Piccolo above 17.
He did kind of contradict himself because in one tweet he ranked Gohan above 17 then in another one he said Gohan = 17
He did kind of contradict himself because in one tweet he ranked Gohan above 17 then in another one he said Gohan = 17
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Android 17 being stronger than current Ultimate Gohan is pretty obvious in my opinion.
Android 17 fires a barrage of ki blasts at Toppo, and Toppo dodges and fights back with his own Justice Flash (the word "dodges" is important because this is the same Toppo that just tanked Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha like it was a joke not long before). During this time, Gohan tries to sneak up behind Toppo (while he is still busy firing away at Android 17), but is instantly grabbed and tossed aside like some common fodder nobody. Not long after, Android 17 rushes Toppo head-on (not from behind like useless Gohan) and manages to tangle with the Pride Trooper in a brief hand to hand scuffle.
Then there's also Android 17 also giving (full power) Toppo trouble during their beam struggle. Sure, Frieza jumped in at the end, but if Android 17 was such a joke like some people seem to like to claim, why didn't Toppo just move out of the way, utilizing a maneuver similar to what Goku did with Majin Vegeta at the World Martial Arts Tournament, and let said weakling's blast just take out Frieza? Or better yet, since Android 17 was so "weak" why didn't Toppo just use one hand to fend him off? He is weak after all right? He's apparently a mere fraction of SSB-tier so why not just use one hand to get the job done? Point is, Toppo was fixated on resisting Android 17's blast. Frieza even implies this when he mentions how Toppo is unable to fight back. In my opinion, this is a pretty darn clear indication that Android 17 wasn't far off from Toppo's full power.
Seriously, this whole Android 17 downplay is old, and there are far too many feats that suggest Android 17 is at least >> ToP Ultimate Gohan, who was strongly suggested to be SSB-tier. Meaning, both Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan are likely leagues stronger than RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta / Golden Frieza and likely far stronger than SSB Goku / Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament.
Android 17 fires a barrage of ki blasts at Toppo, and Toppo dodges and fights back with his own Justice Flash (the word "dodges" is important because this is the same Toppo that just tanked Ultimate Gohan's Kamehameha like it was a joke not long before). During this time, Gohan tries to sneak up behind Toppo (while he is still busy firing away at Android 17), but is instantly grabbed and tossed aside like some common fodder nobody. Not long after, Android 17 rushes Toppo head-on (not from behind like useless Gohan) and manages to tangle with the Pride Trooper in a brief hand to hand scuffle.
Then there's also Android 17 also giving (full power) Toppo trouble during their beam struggle. Sure, Frieza jumped in at the end, but if Android 17 was such a joke like some people seem to like to claim, why didn't Toppo just move out of the way, utilizing a maneuver similar to what Goku did with Majin Vegeta at the World Martial Arts Tournament, and let said weakling's blast just take out Frieza? Or better yet, since Android 17 was so "weak" why didn't Toppo just use one hand to fend him off? He is weak after all right? He's apparently a mere fraction of SSB-tier so why not just use one hand to get the job done? Point is, Toppo was fixated on resisting Android 17's blast. Frieza even implies this when he mentions how Toppo is unable to fight back. In my opinion, this is a pretty darn clear indication that Android 17 wasn't far off from Toppo's full power.
Seriously, this whole Android 17 downplay is old, and there are far too many feats that suggest Android 17 is at least >> ToP Ultimate Gohan, who was strongly suggested to be SSB-tier. Meaning, both Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan are likely leagues stronger than RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta / Golden Frieza and likely far stronger than SSB Goku / Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament.
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
It's kind of in broken Engrish but it came out around the time 17 first came back, but before Freeza was recruited:https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 4454428673PFM18 wrote:I haven't seen any of this. Link?ekrolo2 wrote:Toshio Yoshitaka seems to think Gohan and 17 are the same power but he's made multiple statements that contradict this like saying Gohan and even Piccolo are superior to him then saying he was Gohan's equal with Piccolo and Frost being weaker.ZombieVito wrote: Gohan IS weaker than Goku, Vegeta or Freeza.
Trunks is only stronger thanks to Super Saiyan Rage and 17 is a toss up.
There's another tweet he made about his power but I can't find the translation for it.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Exactly. The whole Cell arc was about Gohan having more potential than any other Z fighter, including Trunks. But the dumbasses who wrote the super anime seemed to ignore this.Bergamo wrote: "Trunks has more potential"
Then why didn't he go SS2? He was definitely angry enough and he had SS1 like 5 times longer, so what gives.
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Agreed, Future Trunks in his original appearance is not a great fighter with vast potential, he's the bottom feeder Super Saiyan. Turning him from that into someone with enough potential to rival post Whis training Goku & Vegeta in their various forms by doing... Something off screen and fighting Vegeta for a couple of days epitomizes the lazy gift wrapping of power tossed around constantly nowadays.Puaru wrote:Exactly. The whole Cell arc was about Gohan having more potential than any other Z fighter, including Trunks. But the dumbasses who wrote the super anime seemed to ignore this.Bergamo wrote: "Trunks has more potential"
Then why didn't he go SS2? He was definitely angry enough and he had SS1 like 5 times longer, so what gives.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Well in the manga, Trunks did train with the Z Sword so he should have been at least as strong as Buu Saga Goku who was ahead of Cell Games Gohan.
They didn't show that in the anime but it's probably still true because they did mention he had help from Supreme Kai.
Then if he'd fought Goku Black for a year or so then maybe he had some Zenkai Boosts in addition to that. Then finally his Super Saiyan Rage form appears to just be his Grade 3 power in a slimmer body.
They didn't show that in the anime but it's probably still true because they did mention he had help from Supreme Kai.
Then if he'd fought Goku Black for a year or so then maybe he had some Zenkai Boosts in addition to that. Then finally his Super Saiyan Rage form appears to just be his Grade 3 power in a slimmer body.
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Zenkai boosts don't happen anymore, why do people not get this?Bullza wrote:Well in the manga, Trunks did train with the Z Sword so he should have been at least as strong as Buu Saga Goku who was ahead of Cell Games Gohan.
They didn't show that in the anime but it's probably still true because they did mention he had help from Supreme Kai.
Then if he'd fought Goku Black for a year or so then maybe he had some Zenkai Boosts in addition to that. Then finally his Super Saiyan Rage form appears to just be his Grade 3 power in a slimmer body.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
- SupremeKai25
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4106
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Oh, Let's not kid ourselves, there is barely any logical argument that can explain Future Trunks utterly destroying single-handedly Fused Zamasu with the help of two exhausted base form saiyans who were no match for the aforemention Fused Zamasu, and 30 wounded civilians, makes any sense whatsoever. It's a cheap ending to a great arc, made solely to please the massive Future Trunks fanbase.
And why would that give him such a massive boost that he can now trade blows with Fused Zamasu himself, when Goku Black alone was roflstomping him effortlessly?Then finally his Super Saiyan Rage form appears to just be his Grade 3 power in a slimmer body.
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Well Goku Black seemed to get one. In the manga they said Goku and Vegeta didn't have them anymore because they were near their limits but Trunks wouldn't have been so maybe he was able to get a few.ekrolo2 wrote:Zenkai boosts don't happen anymore, why do people not get this?
Maybe they did a re-retcon and brought them back.
That was after absorbing the Spirit Bomb into himself and being given energy from Goku and Vegeta though, it wasn't from his own power.SupremeKai25 wrote:And why would that give him such a massive boost that he can now trade blows with Fused Zamasu himself, when Goku Black alone was roflstomping him effortlessly?
- SupremeKai25
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4106
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
The energy of two exhausted base form saiyans who were no match for Fused Zamasu (so much so that he easily crushed them with one punch and would have killed them too), a bunch of worthless civilians, and the nature of a dying planet that was literally being torn asunder.That was after absorbing the Spirit Bomb into himself and being given energy from Goku and Vegeta though, it wasn't from his own power.
That is the worst offender, yes, but I'm not referring just to that. I am also talking about the moments prior to that, when he was able to trade blows with Fused Zamasu all on his own, parry his attacks, and even mutilate his chest, before the enemy's regeneration kicked in.
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
See that is the obvious implication if he trained with Supreme Kai. That of course is what that would entail, it would essentially go similar to when Kaioshin brought Gihan to the Z sword.Bullza wrote:They didn't show that in the anime but it's probably still true because they did mention he had help from Supreme Kai.
Spoiler:
- TheUltimateNinja
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4020
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Guys, what if every future villain is hyped to have "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" but they never actually clarify and it's forever left ambiguous?
- PerhapsTheOtherOne
- I Live Here
- Posts: 2661
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
That'd suck.TheUltimateNinja wrote:Guys, what if every future villain is hyped to have "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" but they never actually clarify and it's forever left ambiguous?
It's high time they get off the Beerus pedestal and make some room for new walls; if you're gonna do it, make it explicit.
- ZombieVito
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5912
- Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
ekrolo2 wrote: It's kind of in broken Engrish but it came out around the time 17 first came back, but before Freeza was recruited:https://mobile.twitter.com/toshio916/st ... 4454428673
There's another tweet he made about his power but I can't find the translation for it.
So Piccolo also got strong after E88?
Yeah, I can't agree with this. The guy literally became over 50 times stronger in 3 years while training alone. He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.ekrolo2 wrote: Agreed, Future Trunks in his original appearance is not a great fighter with vast potential, he's the bottom feeder Super Saiyan. Turning him from that into someone with enough potential to rival post Whis training Goku & Vegeta in their various forms by doing... Something off screen and fighting Vegeta for a couple of days epitomizes the lazy gift wrapping of power tossed around constantly nowadays.
He surpassed Future Gohan all by himself at the age of 17. He has more potential than him.
-
- Regular
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Future Gohan =/= Present Timeline Gohan
Future Gohan trained and fought for over a decade after the Androids appeared and couldn't even go beyond ssj or defeat Androids who were apparently weaker than the present timeline ones
Present Timeline Gohan used the gravity chamber for about a year, trained with Piccolo and used the ToP and especially Kefla fight to jump from his Buu Saga peak to rivaling CSSB Goku
Even in the anime, Gohan basically trained on and off after RoF + training session with Piccolo before the ToP to reach levels to where he could atleast compete with ssg -ssb level fighters
I completely disagree that F Trunks has greater potential than Present Timeline Gohan
Future Gohan trained and fought for over a decade after the Androids appeared and couldn't even go beyond ssj or defeat Androids who were apparently weaker than the present timeline ones
Present Timeline Gohan used the gravity chamber for about a year, trained with Piccolo and used the ToP and especially Kefla fight to jump from his Buu Saga peak to rivaling CSSB Goku
Even in the anime, Gohan basically trained on and off after RoF + training session with Piccolo before the ToP to reach levels to where he could atleast compete with ssg -ssb level fighters
I completely disagree that F Trunks has greater potential than Present Timeline Gohan
- RandomGuy96
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
- Location: San Diego, California, USA
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
Nope. Trunks hit the androids with a charged-up blast and literally nothing happened, with Vegeta mocking him for the effort. Five minutes later both Trunks (after sensing his dad) and Vegeta (having already sensed his son) think that Vegeta can beat those same androids.ZombieVito wrote: He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.
I see we're also ignoring Trunks still being weaker than Dabra after at least 4 years of hardcore training (even in SS2, in the manga), and failing to come close to either Goku or Gohan despite being in the ROSAT twice as long as them.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
- dragon boss z
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1997
- Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
That was only ssj1 Trunks that was weaker than Dabra in the manga. He gained ssj2 during the fight and then stomped him.RandomGuy96 wrote:Nope. Trunks hit the androids with a charged-up blast and literally nothing happened, with Vegeta mocking him for the effort. Five minutes later both Trunks (after sensing his dad) and Vegeta (having already sensed his son) think that Vegeta can beat those same androids.ZombieVito wrote: He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.
I see we're also ignoring Trunks still being weaker than Dabra after at least 4 years of hardcore training (even in SS2, in the manga), and failing to come close to either Goku or Gohan despite being in the ROSAT twice as long as them.
- RandomGuy96
- Kicks it Old-School
- Posts: 8862
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
- Location: San Diego, California, USA
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
He attacked him in his rage several times and did zero damage. Kaioshin had to paralyze him.dragon boss z wrote:That was only ssj1 Trunks that was weaker than Dabra in the manga. He gained ssj2 during the fight and then stomped him.RandomGuy96 wrote:Nope. Trunks hit the androids with a charged-up blast and literally nothing happened, with Vegeta mocking him for the effort. Five minutes later both Trunks (after sensing his dad) and Vegeta (having already sensed his son) think that Vegeta can beat those same androids.ZombieVito wrote: He also rivaled the boost Goku and Vegeta had in 3 years of training in just 8 months.
I see we're also ignoring Trunks still being weaker than Dabra after at least 4 years of hardcore training (even in SS2, in the manga), and failing to come close to either Goku or Gohan despite being in the ROSAT twice as long as them.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
It would be pretty hilarious thoughPerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:That'd suck.TheUltimateNinja wrote:Guys, what if every future villain is hyped to have "Destructive power greater than a God of Destruction?!" but they never actually clarify and it's forever left ambiguous?
It's high time they get off the Beerus pedestal and make some room for new walls; if you're gonna do it, make it explicit.
Spoiler:
Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread
They weren't that exhausted, just injured from the punch. Also just because they were in their Base form when they gave their energy doesn't mean that they only gave a Base level amount of power.SupremeKai25 wrote:The energy of two exhausted base form saiyans who were no match for Fused Zamasu (so much so that he easily crushed them with one punch and would have killed them too), a bunch of worthless civilians, and the nature of a dying planet that was literally being torn asunder.
The Spirit Bomb is generally just as powerful as need be. The one Goku threw at Frieza was huge and that only got energy from the plants and the land. Also I don't think the power of the individual actually factors in because the Spirit Bomb is taking Genki energy so it should be no different if it was from Gohan or from Farmer with Shotgun.
He did have another Rage Boost prior to attacking Fused Zamasu the first time, just before he broke his sword in two.That is the worst offender, yes, but I'm not referring just to that. I am also talking about the moments prior to that, when he was able to trade blows with Fused Zamasu all on his own, parry his attacks, and even mutilate his chest, before the enemy's regeneration kicked in.
So Trunks at that point would have been even stronger than he was when he fought Goku Black. Presumably after the Rage Boost he was back on Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta's level again.