Goten's Implication Towards Goku

[Polyphase Avatron]

Every young kid thinks their dad is the strongest man in the world.

Goten was just closer to being right than most kids.

[Hugo Boss]

Not exactly trying to enter in the merit of the discussion, but Goku proved to be a more competent fighter than Gohan or Gotenks when he defeated Boo. It wouldn't be unusual for Goten to think Goku is the strongest by doing what he and Gohan failed.

[h0kuten]

Alright, are we not allowed to post Manga scans on this forum? My original scan was removed.

They are stated to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but this is never actually proven.

Krillin sensed Super Saiyan Gotenks' Ki and still believed he was the strongest.
Krillin never says no such thing.

Gohan's previous limits were heavily implied during The Cell Games, Ssjin2. Going to Ssj3 tier would count as far~ar beyond his limits.

When is that ever implied.
That was the basis for The Cell Games. Mastering Super Saiyan, which wasn't enough, and surpassing it's limits to Ssj2, a transformation that at the time, was unique to Gohan.

Only after realizing that was Majin Buu's full power.

..and? How does this help your argument? The point is, Goku admitted he could've beat Fat Buu but never said the same for Super Buu.
He actually does inside Buu's body. But I guess you will just ignore that as well.

Goku retracted it when he said they would defeat Super Buu.

He never said he could defeat Super Buu. He said the only way out is to beat him, that doesn't automatically say he can. Obviously there's no other way to get out.
Goku always says 'Don't under-estimate me'. It's an implication towards something greater, probably Ssj3. Goku then states they will defeat him.

The similarities between Goku's views on the 3 Majin Buu's being superior to himself still stands. Goku affirms he needs to train and train to defeat Kid Buu in the future, debunking Manga enthusiasts who believe Kid Buu & Goku are equals.

Goku needs to train to reduce the Super Saiyan 3 strain on his body so he'd be able to finish someone off at equal levels without running out of stamina first, and not having to resort to a Genki Dama. Still doesn't make Pure Buu stronger.
It does. Kid Buu never showed effort, the only time he did it was exclusive to the Genki Dama. I'm simply going by the art-work with this affirmation. Also, the need to 'train and train' just to capitalize on stamina as opposed to strength doesn't make much sense.

I did

No you didn't.
We can agree to disagree.

It actually requires more of an assumption to believe Gotenks is stronger, because it's never proven after the source material (the fusion) is never displayed, shown. or stated to be stronger after the ritual..

Nice strawman. I am going by what the characters say, you're assuming the opposite of what they say is true. Prove him wrong, Piccolo and Krillin disagree with the notion of Gotenks being weaker than Buu, also.
Gotenks was never shown, stated or proven to be stronger than anybody after the source material came to be. Therefore it takes a far larger assumption to believe he actually is stronger than anybody he isn't quoted, or proven to be through feats. Therefore it's incorrect, even by the virtue of Occam's Razor.

[rereboy]

Hitiro has already mentioned the key points of the issue. Other conclusions don't make sense.

[Hitiro]

Alright, are we not allowed to post Manga scans on this forum? My original scan was removed.

Scanlations are bad. But if you have manga in your home then you can provide scans from them I think. An admin will clear this up for you. There have generally been no problems with the Japanese scans from what I've seen.

[Rocketman]

The power scaling is both obvious and already laid out. Cut away all the fluff about statements and every itty bitty variation in form and look at the basic transformations.



Goku and Vegeta are equal at SS2. SS3 is a x4 on that. SS Gotenks is roughly equal to Goku, and then throws SS3 on that again. Then Gohan is some small amount above Gotenks.









ALL RIGHT

[dbgtFO]

Base Vegetto only slightly stronger than Ultimate Gohan?
Who are you and what have you done with the real Rocketman

[h0kuten]

The gap between Nail & First Form Frieza is bigger than the gap between Super Vegetto & Buuhan. So there goes rocketmans theory, Lol.

Super Buu
~FP: 4,000

Gotenks
~Ssj3: 5,000

Ultimate Gohan
~FP: 7,500

Vegetto
~Base: 10,000
~Ssj: 50,000

Buutenks
~FP: 9,000
Buuhan
~FP: 11,500

Something like this works better IMO.

Gaps to compare:

Nail vs Frieza = 12x Gap
Frieza 50% vs Goku Kkx10= 2x Gap

[Low Tone G]

The power scaling is both obvious and already laid out. Cut away all the fluff about statements and every itty bitty variation in form and look at the basic transformations.



Goku and Vegeta are equal at SS2. SS3 is a x4 on that. SS Gotenks is roughly equal to Goku, and then throws SS3 on that again. Then Gohan is some small amount above Gotenks.









ALL RIGHT

I'd actually say that Base Vegetto is weaker than Ultimate Gohan according to the manga, Vegetto transformed instantly. I'd him only half power of U. Gohan.

[Rocketman]

I'm not interested in debating the precise numbers, only in showing the absolute differences caused by the transformations. These are the gaps you can't get around.

Speaking of which, I forgot something:



SS3 is x4 of SS2, not SS1, widening the gap even more between Gohan/Gotenks and their dads.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'd actually say that Base Vegetto is weaker than Ultimate Gohan according to the manga, Vegetto transformed instantly. I'd him only half power of U. Gohan.

The fact that Vegetto transformed just makes base Vegetto not massively stronger than Gohan Boo, U. Gohan has nothing to do with it.

On the other hand, Rou Kaioshin believed that base Gokhan would have been stronger than Gotenks Boo, and his reaction to Vegetto being so strong because Goku & Vegeta are rivals seems to imply that Gokhan would have been weaker than Vegetto, making base Vegetto stronger than Gotenks Boo, and thus, stronger than U. Gohan. If you want to go by the anime, it confirms this, since it portrays base Vegetto at around the same level as Gohan Boo, if not slightly stronger (I don't remember exactly how the fight went).

[h0kuten]

There is no such thing as gaps you can't get around because there is no 'Universally' accepted gap range between all said fighters. The strongest argument for Gotenks Pre-ROST is also it's heaviest burden, due to nothing being proven after the fact.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is no such thing as gaps you can't get around because there is no 'Universally' accepted gap range between all said fighters. The strongest argument for Gotenks Pre-ROST is also it's heaviest burden, due to nothing being proven after the fact.

Nothing supports that SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) is weaker than Fat Boo. Goku was sure that he would have been stronger than Boo, and based on the information he knew, he should have a very good estimation of Gotenks' power. After Piccolo saw SS Gotenks' power, he never showed any doubt in his power, until Boo transformed into Evil Boo.

And yes, even though Goku admitted that he lied about his strength being weaker than Fat Boo's, he doesn't say anything about how his power relates to Gotenks'.

[Doctor.]

I'd actually say that Base Vegetto is weaker than Ultimate Gohan according to the manga, Vegetto transformed instantly. I'd him only half power of U. Gohan.

The fact that Vegetto transformed just makes base Vegetto not massively stronger than Gohan Boo, U. Gohan has nothing to do with it.

On the other hand, Rou Kaioshin believed that base Gokhan would have been stronger than Gotenks Boo, and his reaction to Vegetto being so strong because Goku & Vegeta are rivals seems to imply that Gokhan would have been weaker than Vegetto, making base Vegetto stronger than Gotenks Boo, and thus, stronger than U. Gohan. If you want to go by the anime, it confirms this, since it portrays base Vegetto at around the same level as Gohan Boo, if not slightly stronger (I don't remember exactly how the fight went).

Where did you get that Elder Kaioshin believed such a thing? Goku asked if they should transform and Elder Kaioshin didn't say that "you don't need to", he said to transform after they fused.

Gohan was keeping up with Gotenks Boo at the start of their fight, and Gohan Boo is just somewhat above Gotenks Boo. So, the difference between base Vegetto and Gohan isn't that much, whether Vegetto is weaker or stronger.

[h0kuten]

There is no such thing as gaps you can't get around because there is no 'Universally' accepted gap range between all said fighters. The strongest argument for Gotenks Pre-ROST is also it's heaviest burden, due to nothing being proven after the fact.

Nothing supports that SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) is weaker than Fat Boo. Goku was sure that he would have been stronger than Boo, and based on the information he knew, he should have a very good estimation of Gotenks' power. After Piccolo saw SS Gotenks' power, he never showed any doubt in his power, until Boo transformed into Evil Boo.

And yes, even though Goku admitted that he lied about his strength being weaker than Fat Boo's, he doesn't say anything about how his power relates to Gotenks'.

Nothing really supports the notion that Goku was right either.

[Rocketman]

There is no such thing as gaps you can't get around because there is no 'Universally' accepted gap range between all said fighters.

Fair enough. Let's push SS Gotenks down to only as strong as SS2 Goku and Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nothing really supports the notion that Goku was right either.

If SS Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo, why didn't Piccolo get him inside the RoSaT, like he did when Fat Boo turned into Evil Boo?

Where did you get that Elder Kaioshin believed such a thing? Goku asked if they should transform and Elder Kaioshin didn't say that "you don't need to", he said to transform after they fused.

You are correct, but this isn't the only thing he said:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

[h0kuten]

Nothing really supports the notion that Goku was right either.

If SS Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo, why didn't Piccolo get him inside the RoSaT, like he did when Fat Boo turned into Evil Boo?

Where did you get that Elder Kaioshin believed such a thing? Goku asked if they should transform and Elder Kaioshin didn't say that "you don't need to", he said to transform after they fused.

You are correct, but this isn't the only thing he said:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

Instead of asking questions to try and make the Majin Buu saga more of a puzzle than it already is, why not adhere to the fact that the notion Gotenks was so strong was never proven? Yet we've countless feats and sources from alternative means that say the opposite. The feats of Yo Son Goku + Battle of Gods, Goten's statement in the new Manga and The Daizenshuu all come to mind.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Instead of asking questions to try and make the Majin Buu saga more of a puzzle than it already is, why not adhere to the fact that the notion Gotenks was so strong was never proven? Yet we've countless feats and sources from alternative means that say the opposite? The feats of Yo Son Goku + Battle of Gods, Goten's statement in the new Manga and The Daizenshuu all come to mind.

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. Which I would like to have an answer, because honestly, I can't think of any other answer than "Piccolo believed that Gotenks was strong enough".

As for the JSAT, it doesn't prove anything because Gotenks was fooling around, in BoG, everyone gets their asses kicked equally by Beerus, and in Super, Goten doesn't imply anything about Goku being stronger than Gotenks or Gohan, he is just making a joke about everyone being afraid of Chichi.

As for the Daizenshuu, what are you referring to, specifically?

[Rocketman]

The Buu arc is actually pretty straightforward, people just don't like that Goku is supremely outclassed and the final fight is slapped together to give him screentime.