Was Freeza brought in too early?

[FoolsGil]

Well, was he?

-There were no mortals that could challenge him.
-Every transformation he has brings his power to another insane limit.
-Just to give the heroes a chance, legends had to be created and zenkai had to become a thing, altering the cast dynamic forever and contradicting an important conversation Goku and Vegeta had before they fought.
-Upon his defeat every villain after him had to be stronger and more ridiculous and the heroes had to compensate by becoming even stronger in even shorter periods of time.
-Finally, it was the only arc done in space and the series never went back to the stars since.

I think he was brought in too early. If you place Freeza in any other shonen series, he'd be the final, or second to last villain in the series. And since it was proven that Toriyama had no intention to end the series at the Freeza arc, yet he made an end series boss a mid series boss, everything else that came after Vegeta's defeat on Earth, good or bad, can be be attributed to Freeza, even long after he's dead. Anyone else agree, or disagree?

[precita]

Well Freeza WAS intended to be the final villain and ultimate evil of the show, and he tied in with the Saiyan's backstory, so it made sense. In all fairness Freeza being the strongest in the universe still makes sense:

1. The Androids and Cell weren't created yet, so nobody would have known about them.

2. King Cold was probably weaker than his son, or else his father would be considered the strongest in the universe and not Freeza

3. Majin Buu was sealed away for millions of years

4. Dabura was from the Demon Realm

5. Beerus/Whis are Gods.


If it weren't for all the movie characters who aren't canon, GT, etc....then Freeza being the strongest in the universe still makes sense. He even knew about Buu and Beerus too.

[Doctor.]

Definitely, and I think that Resurrection 'F' was Toriyama's way of making Freeza the villain he was supposed to be, that last challenge Goku and company had to face, since he's the most powerful mortal in the universe and, from here on out, other threats would be found in other universes. I personally think he executed the idea terribly, but that's another discussion. I think the Freeza arc was the pinnacle of DB's writing, and Freeza's character is probably the main reason for it.

[DemonRin]

Well Freeza WAS intended to be the final villain and ultimate evil of the show

Uh... no he wasn't......

In reality, and I think this also answers the main question above: Toriyama was always kindof a slapdash writer. He rarely planned things out, and mostly wrote stuff by the seat of his pants.

This is probably why Freeza feels like the "Final" big bad that he does. Because Toriyama wasn't planning long term, he was writing the arc as he went along.

I mean, at one point during the Saiyan arc, it's stated that the Saiyans are the "Strongest Warriors in the Universe".
That later gets hand waved as Vegeta's ego, but still, that arc treated the Saiyans kinda like "Final Bosses" too.

And the Piccolo Jr. arc felt REALLY "Final", so much so that Toriyama and/or his editors felt the need to include Kamesen'in breaking the fourth wall to tell the reader the story isn't over yet.

[Sun Wukong]

Definitely, and I think that Resurrection 'F' was Toriyama's way of making Freeza the villain he was supposed to be, that last challenge Goku and company had to face, since he's the most powerful mortal in the universe and, from here on out, other threats would be found in other universes. I personally think he executed the idea terribly, but that's another discussion. I think the Freeza arc was the pinnacle of DB's writing, and Freeza's character is probably the main reason for it.

Agreed.

Personally. I think after Goku defeating Piccolo at the world martial arts tournament. The 5 year gap could have been used to introduce Raditz and other alien races and how Goku & company went from the confines of the Earth out to the solar system and beyond. While increasing the power levels from hundreds to thousands, to tens of thousands. Since from the end of the tournament to the Namek Saga its been 6+ years. That time could have been used for Goku & the others to travel from Earth and progress ( fight) their way to wards the center of the galaxy. Where Freeza has his empire's strong hold and is extorting the Namekians or w/e. If Toriyama had gone down this route we wouldn't need ridiculous zenkai boosts since the Z fighters would have been constantly getting trained through their battles. Heck you could even throw in 2 more additional years from the 4 year gap after Freeza's defeat. Giving Goku 8+ years to go from a scrub to achieving (legendary) super saiyan status. Then 1 year could have been taken off for Goku & others to train while Goku is missing. Trunks could have come from the future to warn off the androids coming in a year's time instead of 3. Instead of Gero it could have been the scientists of the Fujurin empire or the galactic patrol or w/e seeing the SSJ as a threat greater than Freeza. He is a Saiyan after all so other races may deem him to be someone who will bring havoc across the entire North galaxy. And from there we can progress as is, I guess.

But the above would have been my take on DBZ after the tournament of pt.1

[Cipher]

If it weren't for all the movie characters who aren't canon, GT, etc....then Freeza being the strongest in the universe still makes sense. He even knew about Buu and Beerus too.

Not even GT throws in anyone who has to be stronger than Freeza and alive at the same time. It's one of the reasons I actually like its early villains being suitably low-threat.

The gap between the heroes and the main villain is never that large again, though, or is at least never presented that way. I do think Freeza could have been scaled down a bit so that the leaps in the latter half of the arc aren't quite so absurd when you stop and think about them, but ... hindsight's 20/20. And despite embodying a number of my complaints with the series in regards to power-based one-upsmanship, I think the tension here actually works and the payoff is incredibly satisfying (at least with the manga's pacing).

[Doctor.]

If it weren't for all the movie characters who aren't canon, GT, etc....then Freeza being the strongest in the universe still makes sense. He even knew about Buu and Beerus too.

Not even GT throws in anyone who has to be stronger than Freeza and alive at the same time. It's one of the reasons I actually like its early villains being suitably low-threat.

The gap between the heroes and the main villain is never that large again, though, or is at least never presented that way. I do think Freeza could have been scaled down a bit so that the leaps in the latter half of the arc aren't quite so absurd when you stop and think about them, but ... hindsight's 20/20.

I'm not sure I understand. Most of GT's new antagonists, even at the beginning of the series, are at least at Cell and Boo's level, let alone Freeza.

[Cipher]

I'm not sure I understand. Most of GT's new antagonists, even at the beginning of the series, are at least at Cell and Boo's level, let alone Freeza.

I don't believe base Goku is substantially stronger than he is at the end of Z. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

That means Lood and Rilld are the first two antagonists to necessarily be stronger than Freeza, with Redict being like ... somewhere kind of in his range. Everything fits a lot better that way, eye-em-oh.

I know a lot of viewers have other interpretations, but I've always thought they make everything way more of a clusterfuck than it needs to be.

[Doctor.]

I'm not sure I understand. Most of GT's new antagonists, even at the beginning of the series, are at least at Cell and Boo's level, let alone Freeza.

I don't believe base Goku is substantially stronger than he is at the end of Z. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

That means Lood and Rilld are the first two antagonists to necessarily be stronger than Freeza, with Redict being like ... somewhere kind of in his range. Everything fits a lot better that way, eye-em-oh.

If his base form didn't improve much, then Goku would need Super Saiyan 3 to deal with Rild, and yet he managed just fine with only his normal state and Super Saiyan.

[Sun Wukong]

Strictly going by anime you could argue that EoZ base Goku= buu saga SSJ3 Goku. Then add another 5-8 years on top of that...

[Marco Polo]

Toriyama should just have made Freeza the Emperor of a faraway country on Earth. Similarly the Saiyans should have been from a distant continent or something.

The Earth became so "small" after the Saiyan Saga, it's a damn shame. Look at the real world, there was tons of place of immense empires throughout history. There was no reason for Toriyama to introduce outer space concepts (which moved the series into sci-fi territories) instead of continuing to introduce different regions of Earth (which would have kept the fantasy aspect of the series).

[Cipher]

If his base form didn't improve much, then Goku would need Super Saiyan 3 to deal with Rild, and yet he managed just fine with only his normal state and Super Saiyan.

Or I could just interpret that Boo line so that things make better sense with how power-ups have worked in the series and how things play out in the show itself.

Maybe I'm grasping here, but since the series doesn't come down hard one way or the other, I'll lean toward the one that makes things more watchable for me. Like, there's no in-universe reason for the Sigma Force Cannon to be a Boo-level opponent. And Pan and Trunks aren't presented as being enormously below Goku like they'd have to be for that to work. It also makes a lot more sense for a possessed/powered-up Vegeta to be the first real threat to Goku without a major increase between series, along with Vegeta not being enormously stronger than Gohan or Goten.

[Sun Wukong]

To be fair even with the sci fi elements its still fantasy. Its just outer space fantasy as opposed to terrestrial fantasy.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

We'd already met Kami/God and the characters had the power to level rather large landmasses and destroy the moon. The Saiyans and Freeza being Earthlings that ruled some other countries, while making Earth's diversity more impressive, would have made the characters themselves substantially less impressive IMO.

[Doctor.]

We'd already met Kami/God and the characters had the power to level rather large landmasses and destroy the moon. The Saiyans and Freeza being Earthlings that ruled some other countries, while making Earth's diversity more impressive, would have made the characters themselves substantially less impressive IMO.

Plus, I'm sure that the Saiyan mythology would have been ruined. How did Freeza destroy the Saiyans? Committing genocide, destroying a continent? Well, I'm sure there had to have been records of their existence, especially in a world with such advanced technology as Dragon Ball's Earth. Surely someone would know that the Saiyans that were exterminated 20 to 30 years ago possessed a tail and they'd link it to Goku.

[precita]

I don't know why cyborg parts make you so much more powerful in Dragonball. Cyborg Freeza was apparently much stronger than Freeza was on Namek. The Androids/Cell all much stronger than anyone they met before.

How does making yourself into part machine make you so powerful?

[Sun Wukong]

B/c the plot required it to be so. That's why cyborgs are so powerful.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, was he?

-There were no mortals that could challenge him.
-Every transformation he has brings his power to another insane limit.
-Just to give the heroes a chance, legends had to be created and zenkai had to become a thing, altering the cast dynamic forever and contradicting an important conversation Goku and Vegeta had before they fought.
-Upon his defeat every villain after him had to be stronger and more ridiculous and the heroes had to compensate by becoming even stronger in even shorter periods of time.
-Finally, it was the only arc done in space and the series never went back to the stars since.

I think he was brought in too early. If you place Freeza in any other shonen series, he'd be the final, or second to last villain in the series. And since it was proven that Toriyama had no intention to end the series at the Freeza arc, yet he made an end series boss a mid series boss, everything else that came after Vegeta's defeat on Earth, good or bad, can be be attributed to Freeza, even long after he's dead. Anyone else agree, or disagree?

-That's the case for every villain in every arc before the heroes beat them. Remember when Piccolo Daimao was the greatest threat the world had ever seen, an ancient demon-god who easily defeated everybody and couldn't be matched even by Roshi's master?
-Again, this also applies to every other villain since Piccolo Daimao.
-There is no legend. Vegeta was relating history. It also didn't have to exist- Toriyama could have simply made Freeza less obscenely more powerful than everybody else.
-Again, this applies to every other villain.
-GT. Also, a significant portion of the Buu arc happens outside of Earth; Babidi's ship teleports everybody to three different planets, Gohan and Goku spend most of the arc chilling in the Kaioshin Realm, and the final battle takes place there.

Nah, I don't think I agree with that. Buu is the best possible final villain, surpassing the previous villains in every way; it never really made sense to have any serious threat come after him (or, at least, anyone way stronger than his stronger forms). I think Freeza's importance is really overblown by fans. What makes Freeza any more worthy of "final boss" status than, say, Vegeta? Freeza's pretty much a blatant rehash of him.

Buu and Cell both pack a much higher threat level, by being stronger, accomplishing more, killing more people (including several heroes), and by having skills/abilities other than "has a lot of ki". They also have reason to be stronger too; Buu is a god-eating ancient abomination, and Cell is a chimera made up of the universe's strongest warriors. Freeza, on the other hand... is any reason ever given for him being literally thousands of times stronger than his ultra-mutant-prodigy henchmen, as well as the person who was previously stated to be the strongest in the universe, other than "he just is"?

[Doctor.]

Cell did not kill more people than Freeza.

[RandomGuy96]

Cell did not kill more people than Freeza.

Directly? Yeah he did. Heck, Freeza only killed a handful of people on-screen.