The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thread)

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thread)

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:19 am

I felt my previous thread on the characterization in Super involving certain characters has been a bit... negative, so I decided to make a more open-ended thread on the characterization and since Super is Toei's canon cash-cow, I feel this is necessary as I feel Dragon Ball is one of those series where only the author can truly nail down the characters though some exceptionally talented writers can do them just as well if not better than Toriyama-sensei himself.

Starting off with my man Vegeta... at first, they seemed to have made him too grumpy and Goku-obsessed but as they progress further, they actually gave them really nice character development later on. We had Vegeta with a personal connection to the God of Destruction Beerus as shown in a flashback where he expressing emotion for someone other than himself for the first time in his life showing his Pre-Cell Saga self wasn't completely irredeemable, his reaction to Bulma getting slapped was more tense than the BOG version, and that scene in episode 14 where Vegeta catches Goku when he comes falling down after the fight with Beerus. His relationship with Bulma has some nice chemistry which we never got from the actual series bar filler.

Kudos to Toei for actually doing my favorite character justice...

On the other hand, I feel Toei has played up Goku's "battle-obsessed idiot" side of his character too much. Granted, Goku was always battle-obsessed and shit, but he was also knew when to get serious which is even shown in the original Battle of Gods. However, in Super that really seem like the case... his only characteristic seems to be him being a "battle-obsessed idiot". He can't keep promises (he promised to visit once in a while but doesn't show up to Bulma's birthday party). He casually destroys the property of a man he works for, hardly ever does his job (tries to hand it off to anyone who comes by), is lazy as fuck, and even endangered the security of his home and family over a dick-measuring contest. it's kinda hard to root for such a one-dimensional character.

There's also Mr. Satan... surprisingly, they got him right. I mean, they easily coulda exaggerated him for the sake of shitty gags to waste more time but they didn't. In fact, he's easily one of the best things about Super right now which funny considering he debut in DBZ as a one-note annoyance but he's come a long way since even as far as the Majin Boo Saga. From the moment he handed Goku that money cuz he felt Goku deserved it more than him acknowledging Goku was the real hero, is a loyal friend to Mr. Boo who tries to keep out of trouble even though the pink blob treats him like shit, and he came through for everyone in the end.

But Muten Roshi is not safe... so far he's only ever shown as the perverted old man and what's more, the jokes revolving around it is plainly forced and stale. In the original series, whenever he acted perverted he was tactful in his actions and it was genuinely funny. Not to mention even when he couldn't contribute he still could share his words of wisdom and knew damn well when to be serious. I know in Resurrection F, Roshi goes back to being the badass old martial artist master from OG Dragon Ball but I have a feeling that Super would shoehorn in lame pervert gags.

Another character they got right was Bulma.... even though she's easy comic relief for Toei they still manage to accurately capture Toriyama's original characterization for her as that spunky, self-centered, and slightly obnoxious but good-hearted woman. Also like I said before, her relationship with Vegeta has some nice chemistry which we never got from the actual series bar filler.

But then the other side of the female coin... Chi-Chi. She's an interesting case despite being easy comic relief like Muten Roshi as she seems to depend on the writer. Whenever writer Yoshifumi Fukushima handles an episode involving her, he only seems to bring out the absolute worst in her (always yelling, seemingly perpetually angry, bossing everyone around, spending larges sum of money in a week, etc.)... pointing her at almost Sakura Haruno-level awful and it seems to get worse each episode but when in the hands of a different writer, she isn't too bad... still a bit one-note but not a character that's dreadful to have on-screen. If they can get Bulma right why not Chi-Chi?

And there's Mr. Boo... the less said the better...


Same for Gohan...


Overall I think the characterization in Super does a lot of things right but also a lot of things wrong. It could be a lot worse (as shown with GT) but I feel it's either more based around Toei's own characterization, hugely influenced by the opinions from a subset of the fanbase (Vegeta x Bulma is the most romantic thing in DB, Goku is nothing more than a battle-obsessed idiot, Goku x Chi-Chi does not exist, Gohan is a loser nerd, etc.), or too focused on telling jokes and not enough on actual character development.

I would mention Goten and Trunks but they're such bland characters that it's not really hard to get them right.... and so many people already tackled Videl (I'm neutral on the demeanor change). And Krillin hasn't appeared enough to get a proper gauge of how he's being handle same with #18.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:18 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:I felt my previous thread on the characterization in Super involving certain characters has been a bit... negative, so I decided to make a more open-ended thread on the characterization and since Super is Toei's canon cash-cow, I feel this is necessary as I feel Dragon Ball is one of those series where only the author can truly nail down the characters though some exceptionally talented writers can do them just as well if not better than Toriyama-sensei himself.

Starting off with my man Vegeta... at first, they seemed to have made him too grumpy and Goku-obsessed but as they progress further, they actually gave them really nice character development later on. We had Vegeta with a personal connection to the God of Destruction Beerus as shown in a flashback where he expressing emotion for someone other than himself for the first time in his life showing his Pre-Cell Saga self wasn't completely irredeemable, his reaction to Bulma getting slapped was more tense than the BOG version, and that scene in episode 14 where Vegeta catches Goku when he comes falling down after the fight with Beerus. His relationship with Bulma has some nice chemistry which we never got from the actual series bar filler.

Kudos to Toei for actually doing my favorite character justice...

On the other hand, I feel Toei has played up Goku's "battle-obsessed idiot" side of his character too much. Granted, Goku was always battle-obsessed and shit, but he was also knew when to get serious which is even shown in the original Battle of Gods. However, in Super that really seem like the case... his only characteristic seems to be him being a "battle-obsessed idiot". He can't keep promises (he promised to visit once in a while but doesn't show up to Bulma's birthday party). He casually destroys the property of a man he works for, hardly ever does his job (tries to hand it off to anyone who comes by), is lazy as fuck, and even endangered the security of his home and family over a dick-measuring contest. it's kinda hard to root for such a one-dimensional character.

There's also Mr. Satan... surprisingly, they got him right. I mean, they easily coulda exaggerated him for the sake of shitty gags to waste more time but they didn't. In fact, he's easily one of the best things about Super right now which funny considering he debut in DBZ as a one-note annoyance but he's come a long way since even as far as the Majin Boo Saga. From the moment he handed Goku that money cuz he felt Goku deserved it more than him acknowledging Goku was the real hero, is a loyal friend to Mr. Boo who tries to keep out of trouble even though the pink blob treats him like shit, and he came through for everyone in the end.

But Muten Roshi is not safe... so far he's only ever shown as the perverted old man and what's more, the jokes revolving around it is plainly forced and stale. In the original series, whenever he acted perverted he was tactful in his actions and it was genuinely funny. Not to mention even when he couldn't contribute he still could share his words of wisdom and knew damn well when to be serious. I know in Resurrection F, Roshi goes back to being the badass old martial artist master from OG Dragon Ball but I have a feeling that Super would shoehorn in lame pervert gags.

Another character they got right was Bulma.... even though she's easy comic relief for Toei they still manage to accurately capture Toriyama's original characterization for her as that spunky, self-centered, and slightly obnoxious but good-hearted woman. Also like I said before, her relationship with Vegeta has some nice chemistry which we never got from the actual series bar filler.

But then the other side of the female coin... Chi-Chi. She's an interesting case despite being easy comic relief like Muten Roshi as she seems to depend on the writer. Whenever writer Yoshifumi Fukushima handles an episode involving her, he only seems to bring out the absolute worst in her (always yelling, seemingly perpetually angry, bossing everyone around, spending larges sum of money in a week, etc.)... pointing her at almost Sakura Haruno-level awful and it seems to get worse each episode but when in the hands of a different writer, she isn't too bad... still a bit one-note but not a character that's dreadful to have on-screen. If they can get Bulma right why not Chi-Chi?

And there's Mr. Boo... the less said the better...


Same for Gohan...


Overall I think the characterization in Super does a lot of things right but also a lot of things wrong. It could be a lot worse (as shown with GT) but I feel it's either more based around Toei's own characterization, hugely influenced by the opinions from a subset of the fanbase (Vegeta x Bulma is the most romantic thing in DB, Goku is nothing more than a battle-obsessed idiot, Goku x Chi-Chi does not exist, Gohan is a loser nerd, etc.), or too focused on telling jokes and not enough on actual character development.

I would mention Goten and Trunks but they're such bland characters that it's not really hard to get them right.... and so many people already tackled Videl (I'm neutral on the demeanor change). And Krillin hasn't appeared enough to get a proper gauge of how he's being handle same with #18.
I agree with all of your point except for Goku. I mean, he is a very flawed person. And Goku himself even has acknowledged this in the in past. Endangering the lives of himself, his family and his friends for selfish reasons is something his does in the manga several times. And he gets called out for it, too. For the record, Goku not showing up to Bulma's birthday party happened in the movie as well. Not just in Super.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:33 pm

Oddly enough, I liked all the changed characterizations except for the Pilaf gang. They're somehow even less menacing than the BoG movie. Then a huge amount of their story was removed arbitrarily. For some reason, they left out Mai and Trunks' relationship. This would be fine if it was meant to be a one-off thing in BoG, but from the dialog of RoF, it appears that Mai and Trunks are dating.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:47 pm

Vegeta and Mister Satan had the best material given to them, minus the former once again slicing his wrists over KAKAROTTO! being stronger than him. Goku is just generic scumbag Goku, nothing interesting is done with him at all like in the movie.
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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by Doctor. » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:52 pm

Beerus', Whis' and Vegeta's characterization and development so far have been fantastic, Beerus in particular as I've already explained in this thread. Goku's a mixed bag. He's not as interesting as he was in Battle of Gods, but every action he has done so far still feels like Goku, especially considering some of his great lines in episodes #13 and #14. It seems like Toei's finally grasping the character, which is surprising due to how they've portrayed him in the past.

As for everyone else, they're alright I guess, the same stuff as always. The only one who's out of character is Videl.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by Chuquita » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:12 pm

Whis wins an unofficial Most Improved award. Vegeta's been fun, I want more interaction between him and "Kakarrotto" though. Gokû's not as much of a troll as I felt he was in the original BOG; in Super he's been mostly a cute mess maker. Also, adorably-indecisive-when-offered-something Gokû is new (how he reacts in eps 1 & 15 when Mr. Satan offers Gokû stuff) but something I really like watching in action.
Gokû was so good at gardening in the 08 special, making me think he's just had his fill here.
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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:57 pm

Everyone's portrayal stinks, besides Krillin, Bulma and Mr. Satan--one of which is just there to forever milk a tired joke.

Goku - I don't care what anyone says. There is something wrong with Goku's characterization in Super. The reason I feel this is simple: for years, I've heard and read the following:
"Goku sounds like a woman in the Japanese version!"
"I can't watch the original. Goku's voice takes me away from the action."
"Such a cool character should not sound like his dragon balls are being perpetually squeezed."

For me, personally, Schemmel has always been the definitive Goku. However, I can't for the life of me imagine him voicing Super's Goku! It already felt a bit off in Resurrection F because of Goku's over-the-top, non-stop excited expressions and mannerisms during Whis' training scenes. Mind you, I only watched that tidbit once, so maybe I'll change my mind later on. Even then, as ironic as this is, I can't envision the Goku in Super having the voice of a man. He actually is a manchild in this show. Not just a naive grown adult with a love of fighting, food, and fishing, but a genuine manchild with an overly playful nature whose brain's only function appears to be to tell him to train.

"Ping ping!"
"EVEN IF IT REALLY, REALLY HURTS?!"

Ugh... I'll take Toei's "heroic" Goku any day of the week. Also, TFS' Goku is funny because it's taking a serious character with a simple nature who makes a lot of stupid decisions, and making him into a complete idiot as a result. Super's Goku already comes off, purposely, as such.

Vegeta - Sure, the red carpet has been rolled for this character, making him the co-main. However, he's just a caricature of his former self. Before, his desire to surpass Goku had meaning behind it. Now, it's just there because that's what fans remember most about Vegeta--that's it! The rest of the show is the equivalent of a puppeteer putting strings on Vegeta and forcing him to do really stupid, embarrassing stuff against his will.

I don't find bingo dancing funny, I don't find Chef Vegeta funny, and I certainly don't find any of these kawaii expressions and mannerisms on the character amusing at all. It's not him. It's not Vegeta. This doesn't count as "development." It's like taking your little brother's favorite Vegeta action figure, making an impression of the character based on what you know about him, and then putting a dress on the toy and making it do fart noises with your mouth in an attempt to piss your brother off.

Geez...when he attentively gazed at Goku as he fought Beerus, Whis turned this trope into a gag. That speaks for itself.

Gohan - Bland as HFIL. You could have a cardboard cutout of the character in his place, and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Hidden powe--what? Ultimate...who? How will Gohan get one-shotted next? Find out next time on the next unexciting episode of Dragon Ball Super!

Fat Buu - Completely unlikable character. Enough has been said about him. His filler and GT portrayals were superior.

Videl 2.0 - ...Well, one thing's for sure: whoever replaced Videl 1.0 with this clone also replaced Bulma's mom with an impostor.

Goten and Trunks - I never liked these characters, but is it me or do they have less personalities in this series? Goten, in particular... is just there. The most we got was in the 1st episode. Trunks had something going on in BoG, at least.

Piccolo - It's not so much Super. This character turned to shit after the Cell saga. However, because Super is basing character portrayals on what people remember most, and avoiding all risks, you can expect him to stay in the sidelines jerking off over the saiyan and gods' powers for the rest of the series.

Chi Chi and Roshi - Because yelling and sexual offense never stops being funny.

The rest - Who cares.
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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by Scott » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:54 am

i agree with almost everything you say here fadeddreams.......well apart from the who cares bit about the rest of the characters, i care a lot about them :D

I hate this fan service Vegeta, it's so lame. They are turning one of the most badass characters in Anime into a goofball.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by Duo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:59 am

Well, the one that has bothered me a bit is Beerus. Something about his character worked better in the film. His portrayal of power is kept somewhat conservative/non-chalant against Goku (the first time), which makes him getting pissed later so terrifying. The build up and payoff doesn't work the same in Super and guts the situation of intensity pre-emptively. But hey, that's sorta how the first two story arcs are going to have to go anyway. Everything is a little screwy when you have three versions to work with and can pick which one nails it for you best.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by buutenks » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:03 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: On the other hand, I feel Toei has played up Goku's "battle-obsessed idiot" side of his character too much. Granted, Goku was always battle-obsessed and shit, but he was also knew when to get serious which is even shown in the original Battle of Gods. However, in Super that really seem like the case... his only characteristic seems to be him being a "battle-obsessed idiot". He can't keep promises (he promised to visit once in a while but doesn't show up to Bulma's birthday party). He casually destroys the property of a man he works for, hardly ever does his job (tries to hand it off to anyone who comes by), is lazy as fuck, and even endangered the security of his home and family over a dick-measuring contest. it's kinda hard to root for such a one-dimensional character.

Goku can never keeps promises.

Fact goku never visisted bulma in 10 years in the manga.Bulma had to come to him lol.

Goku isnt lazy.He trains constantly when he can.A lazy person would never do such a thing.

Goku is a saiyan,dont treat him like a human.Saiyans live for combat,nothing more nothing else.And eating.Goku is no different.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by SansrivaaL » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:26 pm

I dont see anything wrong with Goku's personality tbh, he's easily entertained when it comes to fighting strong opponents, he's chlidish, the only thing on his mind is training, eating,breathing and hoping for stronger guys out there, he's selfish. Goku is based from Sun Wukong the monkey king, from what I'm seeing he is very monkey like (kinda wish his tail returns but I dont see that happening)

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:30 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku - I don't care what anyone says. There is something wrong with Goku's characterization in Super. The reason I feel this is simple: for years, I've heard and read the following:
"Goku sounds like a woman in the Japanese version!"
"I can't watch the original. Goku's voice takes me away from the action."
"Such a cool character should not sound like his dragon balls are being perpetually squeezed."

For me, personally, Schemmel has always been the definitive Goku. However, I can't for the life of me imagine him voicing Super's Goku! It already felt a bit off in Resurrection F because of Goku's over-the-top, non-stop excited expressions and mannerisms during Whis' training scenes. Mind you, I only watched that tidbit once, so maybe I'll change my mind later on. Even then, as ironic as this is, I can't envision the Goku in Super having the voice of a man. He actually is a manchild in this show. Not just a naive grown adult with a love of fighting, food, and fishing, but a genuine manchild with an overly playful nature whose brain's only function appears to be to tell him to train.

"Ping ping!"
"EVEN IF IT REALLY, REALLY HURTS?!"

Ugh... I'll take Toei's "heroic" Goku any day of the week. Also, TFS' Goku is funny because it's taking a serious character with a simple nature who makes a lot of stupid decisions, and making him into a complete idiot as a result. Super's Goku already comes off, purposely, as such.
So, basically, your entire point about Goku's characterization being off revolves around Sean's, not Nozawa's, portrayal of the character in the original series (or Kai), which was never fitting? I think most people already told you this before, but watch the Japanese version if you haven't already.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:45 pm

For Goku, you should simply ask yourself:

1. Is Goku enjoying fighting someone strong?
2. Is Goku being irresponsible?
3. Is Goku eating a ton of food?

If the answer to these questions is yes, his characterization was done right.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:31 pm

So, basically, your entire point about Goku's characterization being off revolves around Sean's, not Nozawa's, portrayal of the character in the original series (or Kai), which was never fitting? I think most people already told you this before, but watch the Japanese version if you haven't already.
I've already watched the Japanese version of DBZ. I've never liked her voice for adult Goku; I feel Schemmel fits much better, especially so for the original movies. That's exactly my point. Watching Super, I feel his voice would be out of place because of how over-the-top and goofy Goku's expressions and mannerisms are 90% of the time. Me, a Schemmel fan.
LuckyCat wrote:For Goku, you should simply ask yourself:

1. Is Goku enjoying fighting someone strong?
2. Is Goku being irresponsible?
3. Is Goku eating a ton of food?

If the answer to these questions is yes, his characterization was done right.
You're oversimplifying the character.

I can do the same for Vegeta (which is, incidentally, what Toei has done):
1. Does he want to surpass Kakarot?
2. Is he grumpy all the time?
3. Does he mention his saiyan heritage?

If the answer to these questions is yes, his characterization was done right.
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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:39 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Watching Super, I feel his voice would be out of place because of how over-the-top and goofy Goku's expressions and mannerisms are 90% of the time. Me, a Schemmel fan.
But that shouldn't matter. Because Goku is written with Nozawa in mind. If you think Super!Goku's expressions and mannerisms fit Nozawa's voice, then his characterization is being done right.
fadeddreams5 wrote:You're oversimplifying the character.
You can't oversimplify Goku, being simple and always focusing on one or two ideas is his thing. Occasionally he breaks out of that mold and develops a bit, but he's like that 90% of the time.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:50 pm

Doctor. wrote: But that shouldn't matter. Because Goku is written with Nozawa in mind. If you think Super!Goku's expressions and mannerisms fit Nozawa's voice, then his characterization is being done right.
Goku was written with Nozawa in mind before too, but a lot of people don't approve of it.

The fact that I feel Schemmel's voice doesn't fit this Goku goes to show he's different. He's being portrayed as more over-the-top and goofy, as well as more absent-minded.
fadeddreams5 wrote:You can't oversimplify Goku, being simple and always focusing on one or two ideas is his thing. Occasionally he breaks out of that mold and develops a bit, but he's like that 90% of the time.
He's a simple person, but dividing his characterization into three small elements is still oversimplifying. That's how you end up getting cartoon caricature or parody versions of a character.
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:56 pm

Correction. Goku is a simple person, but he's not a simple character.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:58 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Correction. Goku is a simple person, but he's not a simple character.
Edited that before I noticed this. lol.
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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by irreality » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:07 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote: Goku was written with Nozawa in mind before too, but a lot of people don't approve of it.

The fact that I feel Schemmel's voice doesn't fit this Goku goes to show he's different. He's being portrayed as more over-the-top and goofy, as well as more absent-minded.
Or it just meant that Dub!Goku was different and changed from the original and Schemmel acted accordingly to the changes made to Goku.

What did you think of BoG!Schemmel, though? Other than episode 1 and episode 15/16, there is not that much different in Goku's expressions and mannerisms in Super vs the movie. And I think Schemmel can pull off bantering with Mr. Satan and Krillin and still make it feel like Goku.

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Re: The Characterization in Super... (General Discussion Thr

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:17 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:You're oversimplifying the character.
Am I missing some nuances? Maybe. Have I captured the essentials? Yes.
fadeddreams5 wrote:I can do the same for Vegeta (which is, incidentally, what Toei has done):
1. Does he want to surpass Kakarot?
2. Is he grumpy all the time?
3. Does he mention his saiyan heritage?

If the answer to these questions is yes, his characterization was done right.
I don't see any problems with this.

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