Why tien and chaotzu keep training the same?

[SuperSaiyanJay]

Why does tien and chaotzu keep training the same way after coming from king kais planet. Thats why goku is so dam strong. He does so much different types of training that he cant help but improve. Tien could have went into the hyperbolic time chamber, he could used the gravity ship goku and vegeta used. Hell, even piccolo needs to stop doing the same dumb ass meditation training where he fights hisself. Dont tell me because goku and vegeta are saiyans. Because if your stronger than somebody before you can be again.

[Lord Beerus]

The biology of all species in the Dragon Ball is not the same. Saiyans are practically built to fight and grow rapidly stronger if the proper training requirements are met. Tien going into the ROSAT wouldn't have made a difference because he's ultimately an Earthling and has a much lower threshold of strength that can be gained through intense training compared to the Saiyans, Namekians, Freeza's race etc. Tien has his limits, while other races, like the Saiyans, don't because, well, they're are simply genetically superior. That's just how it works. And besides, the ROSAT doesn't guarantee great results instantly. When Vegeta and Trunks went in the the ROSAT for the second time, their increase in strength was nowhere near what they achieved after training in their the first time.

[SuperSaiyanJay]

What you have stated is correct. It is just interesting to see how tien does the same training and piccolo does the same meditating. Piccolo fused with anil and kami was stronger than a super saiyan and he actually went into the gravity chamber for a while he would be way stronger than he was when he was in the cell games. But u proved my point about strength. Thats why goku kept getting stronger than vegeta. He wasnt using the same conventional methods. He changed up. Trunks and vegeta used the hyperbolic time chamber twice goku didnt need to because he only needed to go in once with gohan assisting him.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm still not convinced that gravity training is possible for the Earthlings. Every time they were offered a chance to do it, they were either already dead, or declined to take part in it.

It's kinda hard to train when your heart can't pump blood through your body, when your lungs can't work. In high gravity, the air would also be much thicker, making it harder to breathe, in addition to the additional stress already put on your lungs.

Sure, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Krillin, etc, could handle the kinetic challenges, like tripping and falling and such, but I seriously doubt that their organs would continue to function in conditions that they have no real way of training for.

[precita]

Tien flat out said in the Cell saga that he didn't want to use the time chamber because, "he didn't think it would make a difference," in that he knew he was outclassed and that he would never catch up to Cell or the Saiyans and Piccolo.

Then of course Tien and Yamcha also say that they weren't going to fight at the Cell Games when they originally appeared. The fact that they survived the Cell Jr. onslaught is a miracle in itself.

[BoosterZabi]

I always feel that people greatly overestimate Tenshinhan's strength primarily because of him thwarting Semi-Perfect Cell by pushing him back constantly in a hole. It did no damage whatsoever to Cell and Tenshinhan almost died since he was using all the Ki in his body. That isn't a demonstration of power as much as it being a manipulation of ki. Just like how Krillin uses the destructo disc to cut off Freeza's tail.

Oh and the other thing people bring up is the anime filler which is non-canon in regards to him defeating Jeice and Burter and the three of them sparing with Piccolo. I constantly hammer it in to people that it would make no sense whatsoever. It took Goku 6 months to go from a power level of 400+ to 8,000+. Tenshinhan going from a power level of 1,200+ to 40,000+ in less then a week without weighted training gear? Bullshit. Though to be honest, training has never been consistent in Dragonball. Goku goes from 260 to 400+ in 3 years of training at Kami's while the other four Z Fighters go from 150-220 (assumption since Krillin was 180) to 1,000+ in 1 year. And we all know Goku is a more dedicated fighter in regards to training since he's a Saiyan and his body adapts faster.

And yeah Tenshinhan stayed at King Kai's for 6 months correct? I think he hit a threshold of how much he could improve, especially without weighted clothing. And yes, Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan. It's unfortunate that Tenshinhan did not get his ki unlocked by Guru. He might have had much more of a gain than Krillin did.

[supercat]

The biology of all species in the Dragon Ball is not the same. Saiyans are practically built to fight and grow rapidly stronger if the proper training requirements are met. Tenshinhan going into the ROSAT wouldn't have made a difference because he's ultimately an Earthling and has a much lower threshold of strength that can be gained through intense training compared to the Saiyans, Namekians, Freeza's race etc. Tenshinhan has his limits, while other races, like the Saiyans, don't because, well, they're are simply genetically superior. That's just how it works. And besides, the ROSAT doesn't guarantee great results instantly. When Vegeta and Trunks went in the the ROSAT for the second time, their increase in strength was nowhere near what they achieved after training in their the first time.

Genetically superior... Is that why Tien and Yamcha surpassed Raditz after training with Kami? Not to mention they far exceeded anything Nappa was able to muster after years and years of combat?

Both Tien and Yamcha have shown that they have the capability to make impressive leaps in power; as a matter of fact, their accomplishments in the earlier part of the series is comparable to Goku's.

While it is likely that Tien's results in the RoSaT would have paled in comparison to Goku and Vegeta's (considering how far behind he's fallen), dismissing his hypothetical training session as something that wouldn't have even made a difference seems a bit farfetched in my opinion. I mean sure his newly obtained power would still have been deemed trivial when being compared to the top contenders of the Cell Games, but who's to say that he wouldn't have at the very least shattered personal records?

Also, where would the Base Saiyans be without transformations? Their inablity to surpass Frieza after nearly two decades of training suggests that their base forms don't improve as drastically as some imply.

[LightBing]

Why does Tenshinhan and chaotzu keep training the same way after coming from king kais planet. Thats why goku is so dam strong. He does so much different types of training that he cant help but improve. Tenshinhan could have went into the hyperbolic time chamber, he could used the gravity ship goku and vegeta used. Hell, even piccolo needs to stop doing the same dumb ass meditation training where he fights hisself. Dont tell me because goku and vegeta are saiyans. Because if your stronger than somebody before you can be again.

It's all Super Saiyan fault. After the transformation, the humans couldn't keep up, even if they used the same training methods. What's the point of getting stronger, if you still can't make a difference. That's why Kuririn and Yamcha later retired, also why Tenshinhan instead of delivering his "I'll catch up to you Goku" speeches, he's instead in awe of the stronger characters and loses his rivalry with Goku.

I'm still not convinced that gravity training is possible for the Earthlings. Every time they were offered a chance to do it, they were either already dead, or declined to take part in it.

It's kinda hard to train when your heart can't pump blood through your body, when your lungs can't work. In high gravity, the air would also be much thicker, making it harder to breathe, in addition to the additional stress already put on your lungs.

Sure, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Krillin, etc, could handle the kinetic challenges, like tripping and falling and such, but I seriously doubt that their organs would continue to function in conditions that they have no real way of training for.

In Kaio's planet they had gravity training. Although I don't remember, if it had more or less gravity than the RoSaT.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm still not convinced that gravity training is possible for the Earthlings. Every time they were offered a chance to do it, they were either already dead, or declined to take part in it.

It's kinda hard to train when your heart can't pump blood through your body, when your lungs can't work. In high gravity, the air would also be much thicker, making it harder to breathe, in addition to the additional stress already put on your lungs.

Sure, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Krillin, etc, could handle the kinetic challenges, like tripping and falling and such, but I seriously doubt that their organs would continue to function in conditions that they have no real way of training for.

In Kaio's planet they had gravity training. Although I don't remember, if it had more or less gravity than the RoSaT.

That would fall under the "they were already dead" category. And it has the same gravitational force: 10 times.

[Lord Beerus]

The biology of all species in the Dragon Ball is not the same. Saiyans are practically built to fight and grow rapidly stronger if the proper training requirements are met. Tenshinhan going into the ROSAT wouldn't have made a difference because he's ultimately an Earthling and has a much lower threshold of strength that can be gained through intense training compared to the Saiyans, Namekians, Freeza's race etc. Tenshinhan has his limits, while other races, like the Saiyans, don't because, well, they're are simply genetically superior. That's just how it works. And besides, the ROSAT doesn't guarantee great results instantly. When Vegeta and Trunks went in the the ROSAT for the second time, their increase in strength was nowhere near what they achieved after training in their the first time.

Genetically superior... Is that why Tenshinhan and Yamcha surpassed Raditz after training with Kami? Not to mention they far exceeded anything Nappa was able to muster after years and years of combat?

All it takes is a few Zenkais and a SSJ transformation and Raditz leaves both Tien and Yamcha is his dust. And that's not even taking into consideration Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan 4. Face it, as far as the Superpower Lottery goes, the Saiyans won the jackpot.

[LightBing]

I'm still not convinced that gravity training is possible for the Earthlings. Every time they were offered a chance to do it, they were either already dead, or declined to take part in it.

It's kinda hard to train when your heart can't pump blood through your body, when your lungs can't work. In high gravity, the air would also be much thicker, making it harder to breathe, in addition to the additional stress already put on your lungs.

Sure, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Krillin, etc, could handle the kinetic challenges, like tripping and falling and such, but I seriously doubt that their organs would continue to function in conditions that they have no real way of training for.

In Kaio's planet they had gravity training. Although I don't remember, if it had more or less gravity than the RoSaT.

That would fall under the "they were already dead" category. And it has the same gravitational force: 10 times.

Ups, you mentioned in the beginning. But I don't see how that factors in, they would have been in tremendous pain during their training. We see dead Vegeta suffering and bleeding while fighting Pure Boo and think there's even a panel were he's being suffocated.

It's pretty straight forward, if you're strong enough you can handle any level of gravity, after you get used to it. The dead humans and Piccolo, got used to Kaio's gravity faster than Goku, while lacking the supposed physiologic advantage.

[Kamiccolo9]

Ups, you mentioned in the beginning. But I don't see how that factors in, they would have been in tremendous pain during their training. We see dead Vegeta suffering and bleeding while fighting Pure Boo and think there's even a panel were he's being suffocated.

It's pretty straight forward, if you're strong enough you can handle any level of gravity, after you get used to it. The dead humans and Piccolo, got used to Kaio's gravity faster than Goku, while lacking the supposed physiologic advantage.

You misunderstand. The actual physical, kinetic damage would be withstandable. I addressed this as well in my post.

I'm talking about biological limitations. It doesn't matter how physically strong you are when your blood can't make it out of your feet, or if the air is too thick for your lungs to manage. When they were dead, that wasn't a factor.

[supercat]

The biology of all species in the Dragon Ball is not the same. Saiyans are practically built to fight and grow rapidly stronger if the proper training requirements are met. Tenshinhan going into the ROSAT wouldn't have made a difference because he's ultimately an Earthling and has a much lower threshold of strength that can be gained through intense training compared to the Saiyans, Namekians, Freeza's race etc. Tenshinhan has his limits, while other races, like the Saiyans, don't because, well, they're are simply genetically superior. That's just how it works. And besides, the ROSAT doesn't guarantee great results instantly. When Vegeta and Trunks went in the the ROSAT for the second time, their increase in strength was nowhere near what they achieved after training in their the first time.

Genetically superior... Is that why Tenshinhan and Yamcha surpassed Raditz after training with Kami? Not to mention they far exceeded anything Nappa was able to muster after years and years of combat?

All it takes is a few Zenkais and a SSJ transformation and Raditz leaves both Tenshinhan and Yamcha is his dust. And that's not even taking into consideration Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan 4. Face it, as far as the Superpower Lottery goes, the Saiyans won the jackpot.

And who says Nappa and Raditz are genetically gifted enough to gain as much out of Zenkais and transformations as Goku and Vegeta? What, just because Gohan and the others became SSJs so easily, I'm suddenly supposed to believe that the entire Saiyan population has some dormant potential just waiting to emerge after a few grueling training sessions? Both Nappa and Raditz have had an ample amount of time to walk among their legendary kin, but they clearly failed.

The Saiyans acquired their reputation as a formiddable warrior race by transforming into Great Apes and muscling their way to victory. Sure, individually they were powerful as well, but seeing as how Raditz and Nappa couldn't even break 10,000 after decades of combat, I'm inclined to believe that only an exceptional few are capable of anything worthy and/or notable.

And don't come back with the whole "there was no one around to beat them down to the point of a Zenkai" response, as I don't buy that one bit. Whether that's true or not, it's likely they still encountered and faced off against challenges far greater than anything the fighters on Earth were accustomed to at the time.

Excluding transformations from the equation, Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin could all be considered top-tier humans that each possess the ability to tangle with their Saiyan buddies.

[Lionel]

There were technically never any biological limitations established for the human fighters. What we think of as being "limits" is merely an obstacle for the characters in Dragon Ball to overcome; that's one of the mantras this show prides itself on. I can't understand why Toriyama would single out the humans as being distinctly and impossibly bound to unconquerable boundaries. He probably just couldn't find any more combat use for them so they were allowed to stagnate and fall behind.

In real world terms, any altitude above 8000 metres becomes unmanageable for humans due to the substantially lower amounts of atmospheric pressure and oxygen. The temperature is also extremely frigid. As a result, anyone exposed to those types of conditions for periods of time without the proper equipment would begin to suffer from a whole host of physical impairments which impact the person's ability to oxygenate themselves, their heart beat, and many other things including organ deterioration, as well as severe mental impairment due to high altitude cerebral edema. There's a reason why this part of the world is called the "death zone". From what I've read, Kami's Lookout is apparently within this altitude range, and the human fighters lived in that kind of environment for a whole year! Then again, we saw regular untrained humans and animals functioning just fine up there during the Cell and Buu arcs, which wouldn't make any sense from a realistic point of view. I'll simply attribute this to Toriyama not having any understanding of real world climatology.

Everyone was allowed to keep their bodies in Otherworld. As we saw when Goku and Piccolo were revived, they were still on King Kai's planet after being resurrected. Now barring anime only scenes, I think the logical conclusion to draw from those similar situations would be that all of the humans who traveled Snake Way to train with King Kai would still have technically been there after having come back to life, meaning that they were exposed to that high multiple of intense gravity without their innards crushing in on themselves. Besides, are we really going to argue that a Namekian child like Dende is better developed to handle that kind of environment compared with three highly trained martial artists who have conditioned themselves to survive in some of the harshest climates on Earth?

The two most important factors which give the Saiyans the advantage they have are Zenkais and Super Saiyan. Remove those factors and the playing field would be virtually even. They may still be stronger thanks to their in born predilection for combat, but I could realistically see the humans closing into a not-so-large margin with them.

[Kamiccolo9]

Everyone was allowed to keep their bodies in Otherworld. As we saw when Goku and Piccolo were revived, they were still on King Kai's planet after being resurrected. Now barring anime only scenes, I think the logical conclusion to draw from those similar situations would be that all of the humans who traveled Snake Way to train with King Kai would still have technically been there after having come back to life, meaning that they were exposed to that high multiple of intense gravity without their innards crushing in on themselves. Besides, are we really going to argue that a Namekian child like Dende is better developed to handle that kind of environment compared with three highly trained martial artists who have conditioned themselves to survive in some of the harshest climates on Earth?

Kaio's planet is also right next to Snake Way, which doesn't have crazy gravity and, for all we know, the Earthlings had already travelled to Enma's palace prior to being revived, as they would have had to go there anyway to return to Earth.

Unless I'm forgetting something, and they were directly wished back to Earth. I don't recall.

And I'm not saying that their organs would be immediately crushed. That would fall under the "kinetic/physical" resistance I've mentioned in every post so far. But physical strength is irrelevant when it comes to breathing and pumping blood.

And yes. Namekians are based off slugs, which are invertebrates. They would naturally be better at surviving higher gravity than a mammal vertebrate, and their organs would function differently. And it's not like we ever see Piccolo go anywhere above 10 times gravity either.

As it stands, nothing in the manga supports the Earthlings being able to survive high gravity. Basic human biology dictates that, regardless of physical strength, those levels are not survivable by humans. If the manga were to show Yamcha or Tenshinhan or Krillin using a gravity chamber, that would disprove me, but it doesn't. It in fact goes out of the way to have the Earthlings decline this type of training. Otherwise, why wouldn't they make use of it? Krillin had full access to a Gravity Chamber, but instead chose to go shoot Kamehamehas at the ocean in order to train for the Androids. Are we just to assume that the characters are stupid?

[Zephyr]

Are we just to assume that the characters are stupid?

Well, there is a continent of precedent for that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Are we just to assume that the characters are stupid?

Well, there is a continent of precedent for that.

Yeah, but Krillin and Tenshinhan are generally considered to be some of the smarter ones.

[Zephyr]

Are we just to assume that the characters are stupid?

Well, there is a continent of precedent for that.

Yeah, but Krillin and Tenshinhan are generally considered to be some of the smarter ones.

Everyone has their moments.

[LightBing]

Well, I disagree with you Kamiccolo9. Taking into account the context of the series, were humans do impossible stuff, like Lionel described and to add: not suffering from over-training and not having damaged joints from using weighted clothes to the extend they do.
It's, in my opinion, the most supported assumption that the humans can handle gravity, the only impediment being their strength.

The series doesn't go out of their way to stop the humans from doing gravity training. Here's Tenshinhan denial:

Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P14.4
Piccolo (to Goku): “Then use the Room of Spirit and Time again. We’ve got the time. We just decided on the order: I’ll go first, then Vegeta will enter alone…And then Trunks…You two can enter again after that.”
Tenshinhan: “Sorry...But I pass…He’s absolutely not an opponent I could fight…”

He rejects it because it's useless, taking into account the opposition. If he couldn't handle the room that was the perfect opportunity to say it, instead he states the obvious.

When Bulma suggests killing Dr.Gero before he creates the androids. Tenshinhan sides with the Saiyans, saying he prefers to fight and die an honorable death. He knew the Androids would be stronger than Freeza. His mindset is the same as when he rejected using the RoSaT.
Stupidity wise, the tone is set. It's arguable they aren't stupid, just prideful and with different priority's.

[Lionel]

Everyone was allowed to keep their bodies in Otherworld. As we saw when Goku and Piccolo were revived, they were still on King Kai's planet after being resurrected. Now barring anime only scenes, I think the logical conclusion to draw from those similar situations would be that all of the humans who traveled Snake Way to train with King Kai would still have technically been there after having come back to life, meaning that they were exposed to that high multiple of intense gravity without their innards crushing in on themselves. Besides, are we really going to argue that a Namekian child like Dende is better developed to handle that kind of environment compared with three highly trained martial artists who have conditioned themselves to survive in some of the harshest climates on Earth?

Kaio's planet is also right next to Snake Way, which doesn't have crazy gravity and, for all we know, the Earthlings had already travelled to Enma's palace prior to being revived, as they would have had to go there anyway to return to Earth.

Unless I'm forgetting something, and they were directly wished back to Earth. I don't recall.

And I'm not saying that their organs would be immediately crushed. That would fall under the "kinetic/physical" resistance I've mentioned in every post so far. But physical strength is irrelevant when it comes to breathing and pumping blood.

And yes. Namekians are based off slugs, which are invertebrates. They would naturally be better at surviving higher gravity than a mammal vertebrate, and their organs would function differently. And it's not like we ever see Piccolo go anywhere above 10 times gravity either.

As it stands, nothing in the manga supports the Earthlings being able to survive high gravity. Basic human biology dictates that, regardless of physical strength, those levels are not survivable by humans. If the manga were to show Yamcha or Tenshinhan or Krillin using a gravity chamber, that would disprove me, but it doesn't. It in fact goes out of the way to have the Earthlings decline this type of training. Otherwise, why wouldn't they make use of it? Krillin had full access to a Gravity Chamber, but instead chose to go shoot Kamehamehas at the ocean in order to train for the Androids. Are we just to assume that the characters are stupid?

I think you're recalling the anime which depicts the humans as returning one at a time directly to where Bulma and the others are. In the manga, we're only treated to a caption of events involving the wishes and their revivals. That would seem like an odd discrepancy to make in the first place considering how Piccolo's body remained behind after he died yet he was still on King Kai's planet briefly once he was revived. Another wish needed to be used for Piccolo and Krillin to be directly transported to whatever location Bulma and the others had in mind for them. Besides, I doubt the humans were given a forewarning to leap off the miniature planet so they don't suffer the harsh effects of intense gravity; that seems like it would be a fairly important tidbit of information to miss for the wish-makers when their friends could be resurrected at any moment once the 130 days have elapsed.

You do understand the effects of high altitude, right? I ask this because oxygenation, as well as the size of the lungs, and blood flow are increased in size and rapidity at higher elevations as a natural biological reaction to the weaker oxygen amounts and atmospheric pressure. What you're describing seems to coincide with what I explained earlier about the humans having trained and lived in those types of conditions for years. Although I will grant that King Kai's planet is a more extreme example with regards to the gravitational pull.

To your statement about the Namekians being based off of slugs - yes, they are. However, their physiology aside from the antennae is clearly humanoid in shape. You can even seen in the manner which Dodoria killed Moori that he had a cervix and probably an entire skeletal system since Piccolo was also noted to have had his neck broken when Cell punched him. Gastropods don't have noses, eyes, or limbs in the traditional mammalian sense either. Namekians may be loosely based off of slugs because of their asexual reproductive methods and thirst for water, but they're more like slug men than mollusks.

Tenshinhan already confessed that he prefers to strengthen himself in his own way while Krillin if I recall correctly admitted that he wanted to train at his own pace. It doesn't make sense for them to refuse such amazing opportunities, but they chose not to and it's likely that Toriyama was in the process of phasing them out of the fighting scene during that time.