DB Super Stigma

[Ajay]

I don't think it's particularly inaccurate to say that Super doesn't have the strongest of reputations on the whole, but do you think the stigma surrounding the series would still exist had the series began with episode 28?

Would skipping the retellings and all of the production issues that came along with it have changed the mass opinion?

(To be clear, we're pretending the series would be exactly as is, ignoring the fact the same production issues from the retellings would have likely plagued the U6 arc had it started then, too.)

You wouldn't have episode 5 or 24 drawing everyone's attention to any slightly off bit of animation. We'd realistically treat it how we did Z, where we know that longrunning series will always have the off episode every now and then.

The treatment of Gohan that upset so many would be significantly lessened. Lots of little things that seemed to annoy a large number of people during the retellings simply wouldn't exist.

Would the Champa arc onwards have created a totally different reputation or did the retellings allow us to settle into and accept Super's production?

[Luso Saiyan]

I don't think it's particularly inaccurate to say that Super doesn't have the strongest of reputations on the whole, but do you think the stigma surrounding the series would still exist had the series began with episode 28?

I don't think it would make a difference. What people usually complain about is sadly not exclusively about the retelling of the movies.

[VegettoEX]

I feel like you're basically asking, "If the bad things about Super weren't bad, would people still think it was bad?" It's hard to have much of a conversation beyond that, as much as I'd like to!

Everything that the series began with contributed to its stigma, and rightfully so. If everything was different, yes, it would probably have a different perception! You'd still have differences of opinion when it comes to things like character designs and music composition, but those are traditional aspects that have been analyzed and criticized to death with this franchise already. No new road would be tread there in Super if everything else adhered to past methods.

[dbzfan7]

I think it would have. The series would have started off on a much greater foot if it just started with the Champa arc. It'd still be a decent arc overall, but more excitement would be kept. I think excitement died when we knew there would be retellings. Lo and behold they were both inferior rehashes, and it really wasn't til the Champa arc where Super truly began. I think for Gohan people would complain he's still not there, but not be as upset as the other things that happened. I think the animation would be more passable, so that wouldn't have caused a problem either. I think Super would be in a more positive light as I believe the rehashes really held back it's quality.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Good thread. Posting a lot today because I'm new and excited so here we go


I think the Frieza storyline is what makes a lot of people upset. It was really poorly done and Frieza deserved much better than that. They could have even gone with the "I've never trained before..." I actually REALLY liked that explanation. What bothered me was that they never made Frieza a threat and he had no actual plan beyond "Hey...I'm mad and I'm gonna beat you up reeeeeaaaal bad"

I think the BOG arc was needed for those who haven't seen the movies or those who needed a refresher. I have high hopes for the Trunks storyline coming up but I see where they could really mess it up if not done properly.

I think if you either cut or make the Frieza arc better people are less upset. After all BOG arc is just meant to show how Goku transcends his current limits after Buu and the tournament was just a device to clue in how the multi-verse works IMO so not great but not entirely bad either. So yeah...I think with the same concepts and a few minor changes it would be considered MUCH MUCH better.

Original question: IDK about starting directly at 28 because like I said I think BOG arc was needed.

[Ajay]

I feel like you're basically asking, "If the bad things about Super weren't bad, would people still think it was bad?" It's hard to have much of a conversation beyond that, as much as I'd like to!

Everything that the series began with contributed to its stigma, and rightfully so. If everything was different, yes, it would probably have a different perception! You'd still have differences of opinion when it comes to things like character designs and music composition, but those are traditional aspects that have been analyzed and criticized to death with this franchise already. No new road would be tread there in Super if everything else adhered to past methods.

Gah, I'm so bad at asking questions. This is why I never make threads.

I suppose what I'm really asking is, "Is there enough good stuff about everything after the retellings that would have changed the overall consensus?" As in, did the retellings make fans overly critical to certain aspects of the show, or would we still be having the same conversations?

[ryou766]

I ignore the re-telling aspects of DBS. Maybe if BoG and RoF weren't films and were instead saved up for the series, it would've been a different story because it was something new that people hadn't seen before. Granted, when BoG and possibly even when RoF was released, the idea of DBS didn't come to mind. So, I don't blame them.

[Araki]

Oh, the series would definitely be more popular had it started on 28, as the Champa arc was appreciated enough. RoF in particular was a very divisive movie already, to say the least, so having it adapted again and shortly after the film didn't help at all. And Goku vs Freeza was easily the worst fight of the series.
Not to mention the tv version of episode 5 made everyone an animation specialist.

I wouldn't discard the first 27 episodes though, as we did have things that were done better than in the movies, let alone those great episodes with entirely new content, like 2 and 16-18. When i recommend Super to a casual fan, it's really tough to come up with a mix between those first two arcs and the movies, as i have to find a way to include the best episodes.

[Ajay]

Not to mention the tv version of episode 5 made everyone an animation specialist.

Haha, tell me about it! That was a painful time.

I wouldn't discard the first 27 episodes though, as we did have things that were done better than in the movies, let alone those great episodes with entirely new content, like 2 and 16-18. When i recommend Super to a casual fan, it's really tough to come up with a mix between those first two arcs and the movies, as i have to find a way to include the best episodes.

Definitely with you on that. There's some pretty good stuff in those retellings. Before finishing my Resurrection 'F' Super Cut, my go-to recommendation was to watch the 2008 OVA, Super #2, Battle of Gods, 16-18, Resurrection 'F', and then begin at 28. It seems to be the primary recommendation across a lot of different Dragon Ball sites, from what I've seen.

[ekrolo2]

Ideally Resurrection F wouldn't exist either along with the movie re-tellings since all of those are completely superfluous. Super would've gotten off on the best foot by having a couple of episodes of showing Goku and Vegeta training with Whis to foreshadow Blue then go into the U6 tournament arc.

A lot of its problems come specifically from the ass backwards, logic loathing decision to remake movies one of which wasn't even a year old!

[Nejishiki]

I suppose it would depend upon whether the pre-production of Super would be handled better or not in this alternate universe. It would certainly help with expectations had we followed through with the aftermath of Resurrection F and continued from there. I feel as if Toei felt that they had no choice but to immediately jump on the success of the movie, they should have utilized Toyotaro once more to promote the "upcoming" anime as they set up everything. At the absolute worst, a recap episode of both of the movies in the first episode's first act would be welcome just as Kai briefly recapped the account of Freeza destroying Vegeta in its first episode. In any case, with the stipulation that the episodes would be as we know them now, I think the ratings get a slight bump with the general audience focusing on new content for the first time after being generally satisfied with a movie from a few months ago instead of bemoaning the wait as some were guilty of. Oh, and the advertising of the Universe 6 original characters would be a much bigger deal than they were now, I think, jump-starting to their designs so quickly to the public eye. It's taken for granted how many elements to the Dragon Ball lore the Champa Tournament arc introduced, while being a decent opening to a television show on its own right had it stood alone. A great start comes a long way in how critical a person may feel towards a product.

[sintzu]

Do you think the stigma surrounding the series would still exist had the series began with episode 28?

Would skipping the retellings and all of the production issues that came along with it have changed the mass opinion ?

Would the Champa arc onwards have created a totally different reputation ?

No, of course it would still get criticized for certain things but its reputations wouldn't be as bad as it is now.

I don't think they would've been criticized as much if each one was 10 episodes with better writing and production quality.

Some of the problems that were in the retellings were also in the Champa arc but they weren't as bad so its reputation would've been better but not completely different.

[Lord Beerus]

Oh, there is no doubt in my mind had Dragon Ball Super started off with the Champa arc, there would be much less stigma surrounding the show. Although the issues that people may have had with the Champa arc would very most likely still remain, I don't think the series would have to live with the having been the series that produced "that episode". I mean, I can understand the business practices of why the retelling happened, and the BOG and ROF movies themselves, while I personally loved, with the right direction, an alternative and expanded take on their premises could have certainly provided Super with the most positive image. But, well... shit happened. Literally.

[pacz360]

The stigma around it would be less negative if it started on the champa arc at first sure there be some bitching here and there but it wouldnt be be as bad as it is now.

[GodKaio-Ken]

This thread really shows how opinions can differ so much and all be valid. Personally I think all of Super minus the ROF plot has been headed in a much better direction than the Buu Saga was. I really disliked that Saga compared to the others and thought the entire thing seemed like a bad idea Toriyama decided to run with once he got started. Was the Champa arc amazing? No but it was solid and obviously was meant to lead into the Trunks arc by providing relevant information concerning the structure of universes. I have very high hopes this Future Trunks Saga can be as good as the Cell Games Saga. Though probably toned down for kids...which I sort of understand I guess in this age.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Yes, I definitely think that a lot of people's perception of the series would have totally differed. It was episodes such as 5 and 24 that made people begin to overly criticise the production of the series. You would roam around on social media or YouTube and you would see someone post a in-between frame saying "Look how bad the animation is smh!"

It is insane how much controversy stirred up just from episode 5. If those two retelling arcs that a lot of us saw as pointless never happened then so much would have changed in terms of how everyone would see the series.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yes, I definitely think that a lot of people's perception of the series would have totally differed. It was episodes such as 5 and 24 that made people begin to overly criticise the production of the series. You would roam around on social media or YouTube and you would see someone post a in-between frame saying "Look how bad the animation is smh!"

It is insane how much controversy stirred up just from episode 5. If those two retelling arcs that a lot of us saw as pointless never happened then so much would have changed in terms of how everyone would see the series.

Well in episode 5 we learn Vegeta has two left thumbs. That is why he can never surpass Goku.

[Cipher]

I can't imagine it doing any worse for starting at the Champa arc, certainly.

If it were on the same production schedule, though, with as little lead-in time as the actual Super got, it's hard to say just how different reception would be, or how much the quality of the Champa arc may have suffered (and it's no great shakes animation- and direction-wise as it is).

[sintzu]

The Champa was obviously was meant to lead into the Trunks arc.

Toriyama wasn't even sure he'd continue due to Super's quality so the staff gave him the idea (or ideas) about the Trunks arc.

What was in the Champa arc that's making you say this ?

[MozillaVulpix]

The treatment of Gohan that upset so many would be significantly lessened. Lots of little things that seemed to annoy a large number of people during the retellings simply wouldn't exist.

Although the movie retellings DID make him decide to start training again. And the way they wrote it, it made it seem like his treatment in the movies was intentionally not the best because it was all leading up to that moment. Even if we saw him training in Episode 30, I don't know if that would have the same impact after having Piccolo die for him and having the Earth destroyed from his weaknesses.

But besides that...if this is the DB fandom we're talking about...people would most likely still be really annoyed at the light-hearted tone and surprising pace of the Champa Arc. I might not have reached "DB is RUINED FOREVER!" levels, but it wouldn't be the strongest start to the series. Although if the Trunks arc came soon after, it might have brought people back much more easily. Because people like Future Trunks, evil Goku, and dark tones.

And the problem with the scenario is it's one of those things I can't imagine happening. The movie retellings were botched, but they were very much intentional to Super. It does seem like it gave them breathing room to at least work out the story for the next arc. I mean, they said Toriyama was working on the script for the Future Trunks arc for a couple of months. They would need more time than the pre-production gave them to have something like that happen.