The Things GT Got Right

[Shinomori]

As everyone know, Dragon Ball GT is regarded as a major disappointment among fans. The series had interesting ideas but in the end they fail to get anything out of them. If any of you have a chance, go on youtube and look up Blackenfist's review of GT. He has a quality in depth look at the show as a whole and he puts everything in the proper perspective by my estimation. On that note, as I watch the current series Dragon Ball Super unfold, I find myself thinking GT actually had a better progression of certain characters by comparison. So here is my list of things GT got right in comparison with Super...


1. The Setting

GT Begins five years after the end of DBZ. This is excellent because we all want to see the natural aging of the characters we love, especially the younger ones. When we compare this with Super, Super's setting actually begins right after the Buu arc. So when it comes to character progression, there was none. That was extremely disappointing, especially when you consider it was almost 20 years since DBZ ended. (Of course speaking for US residents, the wait might have been closer to 10 years plus or minus)


2. Vegeta

These next couple of points I'm going to talk on individual characters. At the end of DBZ, Vegeta finally accepted Goku being stronger than him. That might not necessarily mean he wouldn't try to become stronger, but he was finally good with the thought. This moment showed how far Vegeta has come from when he was first introduced. In DBGT, we see Vegeta being around his family and spending time with his daughter Bra. We even see a funny scene later on in the series where Vegeta took his daughter shopping and while they were driving, another car pulled along side them with men trying to hit on Bra. Vegeta reached over in their car and ripped the steering wheel from it's place, causing them to crash. That scene was absolutely hilarious! Seeing him finally adapting to life on earth, and that didn't put a damper on his strength at all. In comparison with Super, Vegeta has regressed on the thought of Goku being stronger than him, but I will say it's not as antagonistic as it has been. Goku and Vegeta are the best of buddies in Super.


3. Gohan

I made mention of this in the Super section of the forum, but Gohan reached his zenith as a character during the Cell arc. As the Buu arc has shown us, Gohan is not a fighter and he does not want to fight. He does not want to constantly get stronger like his father or Vegeta. He simply wants to live with his family and work as a scholar. The only proper thing to do is to officially retire Gohan's number. This is essentially what GT does in a way because in this series, he wasn't necessarily a focal point when it came to the main battles. He certainly participated, or came out of retirement to protect his family. (There was a scene with Gohan arriving to protect Pan against General Rilldo, and it looked like he was just getting off work. That is a dad for you right there.) Yet you can clearly see he is no longer training or anything of that sort. Many fans wonder whether or not Gohan will ever shine again in the new series of Super, but I feel it would be more in character for Gohan to leave his fighting days behind and do what he enjoys. For all you Gohan fans out there, you should instead hope that Pan picks up where Gohan left off at the end of the Cell arc. Though with Super, who knows if they will do a time skip and show an older Pan. (At the ending of DBZ, unlike her father, she absolutely enjoy training and fighting. I thought it was an absolute shame Goku neglected her to train Uub instead)


4. Transformation

There was only one new transformation in DBGT, but with that one I feel like they hit the mark. The SSJ4 transformation went old school by going back to the original Saiyan oozaru form, and incorporating that into their base look. It's genius because the oozaru form got lost in favor of the Super Saiyan forms. Now in comparison with Super, I really feel like the SSG and SSGB forms are lazy designs. Turning your hair different colors doesn't take much thought.


These are the things GT got right.

[successoroffate]

The Music: I think that is the thing that stands out the most in comparison with Super at least. DBZ music was great, but not "GT Level" great. From Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku to all the different versions of the song played throughout the series.

SSJ 4: Everything from the transformation and the design was amazing. A complete departure from what we knew about the Super Saiyan at the time.

The atmosphere/setting: From episode 1, GT is a train wreck. Everything goes south quickly. Sometimes I would even feel bad for the characters for all the destruction and chaos around them. They were pretty much hopeless. In fact, you don't really get any feel good moment for very long. Bebi dies and one episode later the DB cracks and the Super 17 saga begins. Immediately, straight to the Shadow Dragons. The "Feel good" moment arrives on episode 64. Such episode, is the perfect mix for Chaos, Happiness, redemption, hope and closure for each and every single one of the characters. The perfect ending.

[ryou766]

The BGM and SSJ4. Also, the ending. It was much better than EoZ.

[sintzu]

The production and the ending vibe it gives while watching it.

The story was very connected with the original which made it feel like a natural continuation even though it was flawed.

I'm happy they didn't introduced a new Ssj form in every arc but instead introduced one strong one that was able to carry the whole show.

There being permanent consequences like Piccolo dying and Buu disappearing after fusing with Uub.

I always thought they didn't do much with the secondary characters but I've changed my mind after watching Super.

I'm not exactly happy with Goku dying at the end but at the same time he was always ready to die for his friends and always left them behind to train so it wasn't really out of place.

I've never seen anyone bring this up but when Goku left that meant Vegeta was earth's new protector which felt like a natural ending to his story arc, however I think they should've done more with him throughout the story.

And the best thing about it, it ended, it gave the franchise a definitive ending unlike the manga which left everything open and gave it the definitive final villains. I'm sure it would've been longer if the ratings and sales were better but I'm happy it wasn't cause it would've eventually stopped being a story and just a merchandise commercial that makes things up as it goes.

[Hellspawn28]

The music
The ending
SSj4 looking pretty cool as a stand alone design
Goten getting a fight on his own without using Gotenks (His fight with Bebi was alright)

[Kunzait_83]

As I've always mentioned, even the majority of the ideas that don't end up working or are flubbed in execution are at least solid, good ideas on paper. Bringing back 17 and making him become a major threat, while turning out as one of the worst plotted story arcs in the series' history, is in itself not a bad idea whatsoever since he was always left a dangling thread from the Cell days. The Evil Dragons is probably one of the single most inspired story arc ideas in the whole damn series - taking one of the main series' biggest flaws, the characters over-relying on the magic of the Dragon Balls to set everything right, and giving it HUGE, colossal consequences that bites them all in the ass in a major, major way - and while the execution is nowhere NEAR as bad as Super 17's, its still left vastly, vastly wanting considering what it could've been.

The main Plan to Eradicate the Saiya-jin story idea (bringing back some sort of Tsufuru bio-engineered super warrior to exact revenge for their race on the Saiya-jin post-mortem) was also a very cool concept, taking one of the more interesting backstory ideas from the anime filler and actually giving it consequences and weight/impact on the main story. Like the OVA, its done nowhere NEAR as well as it could've been, but its definitely still handled much, much better here than in the OVA.

Ideas like having the entire populace of Earth, including major or formerly-major characters and ancillary characters from throughout DB, controlled by the Tsufuru bio-weapon thingy (in this case Baby) is also a really great idea: these new, last remaining Saiya-jin have made this planet their home, they've made friends and family there, and its among their main reasons for being. Take that and turn it against them, perverting the original conflict between Tsufuru and Saiya-jin by having a new Planet Plant populated with the Saiya-jin's new people. Also it gives the whole story arc a really nice "invasion of the body snatchers" angle, having literally the WHOLE world against a few, dwindling remaining holdout protagonists.

Or having Oob on hand, having him find out all about his past life as Majin Boo (and being deeply disturbed by it), giving him some kind of huge personal connection with Mr. Boo: PERFECTLY reasoned and absolutely something that should've been explored. The problem is that the execution of all this is totally bungled, because Oob is left as SUCH a small, underdeveloped ancillary character when he should've been a crucially important main player, and his whole Boo-oriented plot thread is such a barely-touched on afterthought when it should've been a gigantic focus of the series. DBZ/the manga was left so open ended because of plot threads like THIS in particular, that if you're going to create a totally anime-original extension of the main series, plot points like THIS are how you easily, easily justify it and make it actually interesting and worthwhile.

All of this works SO well in theory and so much better as an idea than it does in practice, because one of GT's main problems is that its pacing is the exact diametric opposite of DBZ's: whereas DBZ could at times be way, way too lethargic and glacial in trying to stay behind the manga, GT is in WAY too much of a hurry to bumrush through its own very creative and compelling story ideas for no good reason whatsoever (apart from what we all tend to suspect: declining ratings from audience fatigue at that point), rendering those potentially awesome ideas as undercooked and un-explored properly.

But again, credit where due, whether it fucked up the ideas or nailed them: they're still unquestionably GREAT ideas, and having a really great creative idea can do a LOT to justify and bolster something that might've began life as a soulless, corporately mandated product: as Super has shown the converse (thus far at least) where you have a soulless, corporately mandated product and have very nearly* NO particularly inspired ideas to help justify its existence, and it just sits there and flounders as the pointless exercise in "maintaining the brand" that it is.

*Beerus and Whis and the "alternate universes" concept are pretty neat, can't deny that.

Also, and this is a crucially important point in GT's favor: risk taking. Probably one of the BIGGEST wins for GT in general (and in many ways an extension of its really great story concepts). Once again Super shows the converse by playing things WAY too safe and repetitive and basically being "Boo arc 2.0" (and now as of late, Cell arc 2.0), rehashing old villains and tired story beats etc. (Freeza's revived by his army! Freeza wants revenge on the Saiya-jin! Z Warriors go at it with Freeza's mercenary underlings! New recolor transformations for everyone!) Which you could argue is a by-product of Super in many ways also being a "nostalgia revival": its been over 20 years since the band got back together, here's them just playing all their greatest hits.

But with the rarest of possible exceptions, that's generally fucking boring. GT made things WAY more interesting by not only acting as a natural extension of where Z left off, but by REALLY stirring the pot and shaking things up. It aged the entire cast: by a fucking LOT (though it kneecapped this by de-aging Goku, which is one of the few GT ideas that's just generally fucking horrible intrinsically even at its base-concept).

Everyone from the beginning of the series is old, retired, and frumpy. An emphasis could've/should've been placed even more on the New Generation of fighters - rather than just "Toei Goku" - giving things a sense of forward progression, of time never standing still in this universe (and also playing on a classic wuxia theme, the old guard aging out and passing the torch to a new era of young warriors, one that the Boo arc ALMOST/sort of did). Even WITH the focus on Toei Goku though, GT still has some of that feel (though nowhere near as much as it could've/should've: again, de-aging and fixating on Goku is probably one of the single most crippling flaws and misbegotten ideas in all of GT).

Time has passed, characters have changed, and things are no longer the same as we left them in the Boo arc. The "Dragon World" has indeed moved forward.

The entire aesthetic is given a complete and total overhaul, and generally speaking it actually, shockingly works. It takes all the sci fi window dressing that Toriyama played with in the Saiya-jin, Freeza, and Cell arcs and makes it much, much more a part of the series' core makeup. Toriyama-flavored sci fi is generally pretty fun and loose anyway, so this also works to GT's favor.

There's still a wuxia flavor there, but the tone of it is much, much different here because its played down and takes much more of an equal-time role alongside the sci fi - which in Z was really just purely surface level. Vegeta, Freeza, and Cell had sci fi trappings to them, but at their root core they're still ultimately classic Wuxia character archetypes occupying classic wuxia plotlines when all's said and done. The "space emperor" or "mutant bio weapon" stuff was just a shallow coat of paint thinly covering what are still ultimately your stereotypical "Androgynous, Bubai-esque Wuxia despot" and "dark, evil Youxia", characters who are both ultimately occupying a "search for the magically enchanted McGuffin" and "martial arts tournament" stories respectively: both well worn staples for both Dragon Ball and Wuxia as a whole, even with the "In SPAAAAAAAACE!!" and "Terminator riff" affectations stapled to them.

Baby's a VERY different animal: in most respects he really is just a pure sci fi concept, with any hint of wuxia to him DRASTICALLY downplayed. Super 17 is likewise. They've both got a revenge angle to them, but that's as martial artsy as they get generally (Baby also has the hunt for darkly magicked mystical orbs created by a corrupt martial arts deity floating in the background around him, which does also lend his arc a bit more of a wuxia flair, however fleetingly). The Black Star Dragons on the other hand are total, pure Wuxia creations, which makes their arc feel MUCH different from the preceding two and a whole lot more back to feeling more like DB/Z.

On paper and in principal I should HATE this aspect: from day 1 with this series almost 25 years ago, almost virtually everything about Dragon Ball that has made it the least bit interesting or compelling to me begins and ends with the fact that its a wuxia series made by a guy with Toriyama's specific unique aesthetics and sensibilities. I don't in any way love "Shonen" in the purest sense: particularly post-Dragon Ball Shonen especially. Frankly speaking, I fucking deplore and despise the vast overwhelming majority of it generally as insipid mush, and always have. Dragon Ball was always a vastly, vastly different animal to me than everything it had ever "inspired" in its wake though, because it wasn't JUST silly shonen: it was silly shonen that was also brilliantly riffing on what is probably my all time favorite fantasy genre, in ways that generally always totally overshadowed the fact that its also silly shonen.

So to play fast and loose with THAT aspect should, by all all metrics, be the single WORST possible thing you can do with a DB series, particularly one sans Toriyama. And yet somehow... I don't really hate GT's aesthetic. I SHOULD, but I don't. In most ANY other instance possible or imaginable, you mitigate Dragon Ball's Wuxia identity even a HAIR bit, and I just cease to even remotely care about it. This goes for FUNimation, this goes for shit like the whole "2000s slice of life anime" aspect of how Super starts things off, etc.

The entire original core appeal of DB for both myself and a ton of its older era Western fanbase in the first place was "An anime/manga take on both popular Wuxia trends of the day and its more classical tropes, but filtered through the prism of one of the most offbeat, distinctively unique manga artists out there". Without that, or with that diluted in any way, what are you left with? Shonen schlock mostly. Which largely sucks and is some of the worst shit out there, as all most typical Shonen (more so especially post-1995/96-ish) really is is the Japanese counterpart to shitty, American toy-shilling Saturday morning action cartoons. Utterly worthless.

Dragon Ball managed to be an attention-grabbing cut above, largely because it had such heavily cinematic ties with a great genre that at that point in time also happened to be in a REALLY interesting creative place all around and was just firing on tons of cool cylinders. Fist of the North Star and Yu Yu Hakusho also occupied a much similar place in late 80s/early 90s U.S. anime fandom: which as I've noted elsewhere, overlapped HUGELY with Hong Kong film fandom in the West at that point. From about 1986/87 to around 1998/99 (even 2000/01-ish if we're really pushing it), if you were into anime, you were probably also into HK film, and vice versa.

So again: playing with toning down Dragon Ball's Wuxia influence even SLIGHTLY is just playing with fire here, and is generally tantamount to defeating the entire point of what makes Dragon Ball worthwhile whatsoever. But for as much as it winds up being predictably disastrous at times: GT overall probably comes the absolute CLOSEST you can possibly get to messing with that and ALMOST getting away with it. Almost.

A BIG part of it is the score, which isn't Kikuchi (and that's generally a recipe for disaster with this series), but still... it works. Its distinct, its memorable, its got genuinely hooky motifs to it, and it still has small TWINGES of a classic wuxia score to it, but given a 90s Asian pop makeover - which to be fair is also exactly what a LOT of wuxia films and TV shows were also doing, somewhat throughout the 80s and especially in the 90s during the apex of the whole "Hong Kong New Wave" era (the original, classic A Chinese Ghost Story, a defining modern wuxia film, has Wu Ma's Yin Chik-Ha character interrupt the movie at one point for a training sequence where he breaks out into an old school hip hop-style rap-monologue about how awesomely skilled he is at martial arts and ghost hunting, which should in ANY context be the single cringiest thing in the universe, but is hilariously wonderful instead there on the sheer overpowering strength of Wu Ma's titanic charisma).

Ultimately, even though it no longer grounds the series in classically wuxia filmic roots the way that Kikuchi's score always did, its still got an IDENTITY to it and isn't just generic filler (*cough* Super, *cough* Kai). And like Yu Yu Hakusho's score, it DOES indeed certainly feel like it belongs in a VERY early/mid 90s New Wave Wuxia film: something even DBZ could've easily gotten away with if it so chose to (though I'm exceedingly glad it didn't: Kikuchi grounding Z at least one foot still squarely in classic old school wuxia does near-miraculous WONDERS for that series).

Beyond the score even though is the whole visual design. Again whereas DBZ (and even DB to a point) had sci fi flourishes in its visuals, GT takes those same flourishes and goes hogwild with them. Z spent a very, very limited amount of time doing space opera, but GT spends more than a third of it traveling to weird, offbeat alien worlds and meeting bizarre creatures. Much of it is indeed corny and boring sadly (ringing way too much of Fake Namek a lot of times)... but again, the IDEA of it IN PRINCIPAL makes sense and feels right. I'd imagine this aspect would've probably turned out a whole helluva lot better if a revitalized and energized Toriyama were handling it in manga form, full stop. Even at its worst though, it feels like a direction Toriyama would've taken had he gone on immediately past the Boo arc. It comes across as a natural extension and progression of what came before. As different as it feels, its also organic.

And most of the villains' character designs are wonderful. Baby and Super 17 in particular are just awesome to look at, and following the corrupting influence that Baby has on Vegeta's body over time is another great concept, one that's actually mostly well realized this time for a change. The Evil Dragons are way more hit and miss though sadly: some like Wu Xing Long and Liu Xing Long's second form are just terrible, cheesy, and dull. Others like Yi, Si, and San Xing Long and Liu's first form are pretty damn solid. I'm also really fond of Dr. Mu and the whole Machine Mutant aesthetic in general, and both M2 and the New Planet Plant are a great environments as well.

And once again, in contrast to Super: only ONE new SSJ form in the whole series, and its a genuinely masterfully conceived one. By this point, particularly after SSJ3, a new SSJ form could've EASILY devolved into self-parody (and in Super's case, it definitely has). GT's SSJ4 however earns its keep and then some. And the way that its achieved is a LOT more interesting and better conceived than the whole "SSJ God Ritual" nonsense from BoG, one that both plays on previous series' Saiya-jin lore (bringing back the Oozaru and making it really matter to the plot) while also expanding on it. Everything about GT's new SSJ stuff is just perfect, perfect, perfect.

The fights themselves though are all over the map. Oob vs Baby ought to be a series highlight, but instead its largely anemic and over in literally the blink of an eye (partly because its in SUCH a fucking rush to get to the finish line and put the emphasis tiresomely on Goku), while Vegeta vs a Baby-possessed Gohan and Goten is among the very best animated and choreographed fights in the series and an overall highlight. Goku vs Ledgic is another major winner (in the midst of an otherwise middling mini-arc), but then you've also got Trunks and Pan (supposedly our major marquee characters alongside Goku) just... standing in the background not really getting to do or contribute a whole lot. Again, its hit and miss for sure, with the misses landing like a wet thud and the hits being pretty rousing and cool.

Note also the recurring motif with most of the fights here: Goku's presence. Generally speaking, and this is tied deeply to the "Toei Goku" thing, with the rarest of exceptions (Vegeta vs a double teaming Baby-fied Gohan and Goten mainly), if Goku's not involved with a fight, its glossed over lazily. Whereas if Goku IS the focus of the fight (his excellent fight with Si and San Xing Long also springs immediately to mind here), suddenly the whole thing comes alive and is vintage DB awesomeness again. Its REALLY frustrating because again: there's a rock solid cast of "Next Generation" warriors all present and positively teeming with unrealized potential.

Pan, Oob, Mr. Boo, a grown Goten (albeit one who needs a MUCH better character design than he's saddled with here: should've stuck with his end of Z one), a grown Trunks who is a VERY different character from the time hopping one we knew back in the Cell saga (another of GT's excellent flourishes: remembering to differentiate between the two versions of Trunks as totally different people), hell even Vegeta at this point in time had all kinds of interesting possibilities since he'd grown and changed so very much from the ending of Boo (and I positively adore the leather biker look: it totally suits him): there's a REALLY fun, vibrant new main cast that's waiting to happen here that are never allowed to really shine or come into their own, because Goku's a little kid again and the narrative can't stop awkwardly shoe-horning him front and center into EVERY single fucking scenario: something that the main DB and Z series were never THIS bad about.

And of course, GT's other big win: the ending. The final episode alone almost single-handedly makes the entire thing worth its existence, hideous warts and all. Its perfect, its emotional and sentimental without in any way remotely devolving into One Piece-esque Hallmark Commercial histrionics and blubbering, and its moreover definitively final. It even ALMOST just-this-side of comes close to justifying the immense amount of over-focus put on Goku with the way his story ends off: the ambiguity of which by the way I absolutely, unquestioningly adore. I have no idea how Super's gonna end, but I can't imagine that whatever it does, it'll come close to matching this.

Again though, not all of this works, and the execution is scattershot all around, ranging everywhere from spot on excellent to just catastrophically misbegotten: but that's part of what happens when you take creative risks and gambles. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't. But the effort and care taken to actually do so is almost ALWAYS welcome. I think it was Cipher who said this in another thread, but the overall biggest point in GT's favor is that despite its "corporate cash-in" origins, SOMEONE behind the scenes still genuinely gave a shit and put real effort into this.

That effort didn't pan out, but that it was made at all is deeply, deeply important in itself and is a lot of what separates the totally generic from the distinctive. No matter how good or bad something turns out, all I mainly want is for it to at least be somewhat memorable, something I'd be able to immediately pick out of a lineup among other stuff in my mind. Be astoundingly great or hideously godawful all day long: just DON'T be by-the-numbers and rote.

Ultimately GT's a big, giant gamble of shaking up both Dragon Ball's universe and characters as well as one of its biggest, key features that's always made it special: its tonal identity and texture. At its best, its an astoundingly organic-feeling extension of a possible place where Toriyama could've taken the series had he kept going past Boo, and a huge move forward for the series' characters and universe. Sadly its hardly always, or even mostly, at its best: at its worst, it's a window into what Dragon Ball looks like when its pared too far away from its wuxia roots and creeps instead towards "Generic Shonen Action" of the kind that it sadly helped inspire shortly thereafter (and which later 2000s DB material mostly is without GT's caveats).

Do I ultimately like GT overall? Not... really, nor would I really recommend it to anyone at all, unless they're already a die hard Dragon Ball fanatic who somehow hasn't seen it yet. Do I hate GT with the burning passion that some do? Definitely not. Its just too much of a mixed bag of good intentions (however awkwardly scrambled with inexcusable terribleness they may be) for me to COMPLETELY throw under the bus full throttle in the same way I do with worthless driven like the FUNimation dub or a decent chunk of the current, newer output (especially shit like DB Minus and Episode of Bardock: ugh). I should hold a LOT more animosity and distaste towards GT than I ultimately do: the reason I don't though probably is because for all its numerous failings, its heart is still definitely, firmly in the right place.

I've always said that I like the idea of GT in concept way more than I do the actual reality of it: and as backhanded a sentiment as that is, that's still probably a damn sight more than I can say for other, non-main series stuff with DB's name on it.

[Cetra]

- It tells a story after vol. 42 and feels like an actual sequel
- music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L7hwY-7mSE
- Baby was a excellent villain and the prelude to baby was great
- the negative Dragon Ball concept was interesting
- I like that Pan was one of the main charas
- it had that dark future feeling and the colours supported that
- Super Saiyajin 4 wqas excellent
- the ending was the best to ever come out of Dragon Ball

I could write more about how I fell but I think a summary is enough.

[Grimlock]

Well, I did like many songs it brought; openings, endings and BGMs. I liked the idea of Uub and Mister Buu fusing (so much that I hope that if there is a sequel something beyond end of Z, this concept keeps). I liked to see Gogeta once again, Baby Vegeta's second state design was amazing. And the end of GT is also pretty cool.

[ABED]

(though it kneecapped this by de-aging Goku, which is one of the few GT ideas that's just generally fucking horrible intrinsically even at its base-concept).

How so?

[sintzu]

The overall biggest point in GT's favor is that despite its "corporate cash-in" origins, SOMEONE behind the scenes still genuinely gave a shit and put real effort into this.

This is why I'm a lot easier on it then I should be because I know under all its mistakes is a team trying to make something good and this is what differentiates it from Super.

Did they succeed ? not really but at least it felt more like a story rather then a merchandise commercial.

[Kunzait_83]

(though it kneecapped this by de-aging Goku, which is one of the few GT ideas that's just generally fucking horrible intrinsically even at its base-concept).

How so?

One of the biggest strengths of GT overall, as I was saying before, is its sense of forward progression for the characters and their world. One of the best things about Dragon Ball as a whole (prior to Super at least, which so far seems content to stay stuck in the Boo era and retread old concepts and beats) is the sense of time never standing still: characters grow up, age, change, and revolve in and out of Goku's (our central protagonist and series fixture) life. Nothing stays static. GT is, overall generally speaking, VERY good about maintaining this crucial aspect of the series.

That being said, one of the Boo arc's biggest missed opportunities and faults was not following through on its initial notion of "Goku's gone, time to pass the torch onto the next generation" with Gohan seemingly primed to take the helm. Toriyama, for whatever reasons, back-peddled out of that at the 11th hour, but nonetheless GT still had a golden opportunity to make up for that. It still could've kept Goku, hell even keep him the main focus: but do SOMETHING with the rest of all these cool, interesting characters surrounding him. Don't make GT purely, 100% the all-Goku-all-the-time show. But that's precisely what it largely ended up being, despite all the other cool things done with it.

De-aging Goku is emblematic of the biggest fault of not only GT, but Toei's general take on DB as a whole: all that matters is Goku, and Goku's main draw is his childishness and naivete. Those are ASPECTS of his character certainly, important ones too: but there's an element of "Flanderization" and oversimplification there in how Toei perceives these things in that they go from character traits to just the character period. I'm also reminded here of editors close to Toriyama who were wary of him aging Goku out of childhood back during the Piccolo era of DB. There always seemed to be, at various points somewhere in the background at least, a general sense of nervousness on the part of the Shueisha editors and Toei animation execs at Toriyama's continued rocking of the boat with his own creation and constant changing, experimenting, and tinkering with the formula: mainly and particularly with regards to how he handled Goku, who was obviously seen as something of a "marketing mascot" from the business end of things.

GT's de-aging of Goku seems like it was something that'd be seen by Toei suits as, from a pure marketing perspective, a "course correction". A thinking that "people loved Dragon Ball mainly because they loved seeing this little Goku kid run around being silly and acting like a cute dumb bumpkin hick, so that's exactly what we need to get everything back to being focused on: forward movement of the overall whole and evolution of everything else that the series has ever done and gone through be damned". It feels completely forced and like the obvious "nostalgia pandering" that it is. Its the most blatant, cynical, and naked instance in GT of the marketing tail wagging the creative dog, and a character and narrative step backwards rather than forwards: something that in so many other areas, GT admirably and shockingly avoids doing.

It also feeds into GT's weird identity crisis (which I forgot to touch on above): it wants to have its cake and eat it too by being both a throwback to early, gag manga Pilaf-era Dragon Ball as well as a continuation of the later, more edgier Z simultaneously. Goku's de-aging is the most blatantly obvious example of this, and it just. Doesn't. Work. Its completely pointless, there's no reason for it, it never adds anything, and its never at any point justified other than purely to say "Hey, you all loved Goku best when he was a dumb kid! Here you go!" Its so crass, and if anything, it tends to be a source of much of GT's more boring, stale, and lifeless moments.

Most of GT's other failed concepts you could very, very EASILY see how a vastly better version of them would go had more time and forethought been put into them: de-aged Goku just isn't one of them. It's just a Pandora's box of groan-worthy pandering badness that never should've been opened.

And personally speaking? I'm REALLY not at all fond of Goku as a Peter Pan-like figure. Goku's already a character of limited growth and development as it is: but as limited as it was, Toriyama throughout the original manga's run did give him SOME. Much of it was remarkably subtle (Toriyama rarely being one for subtlety generally), but it was certainly there. Goku's a silly, childlike backwoods hick, but he DOES grow up and mature to at least SOME degree throughout the "Z" era. There's certainly a wide enough of a gulf between "childlike" and "manchild", and Toei's penchant for playing him up in later material as firmly the latter is generally bad enough; but magicking him back down to a literal kid again is just really, REALLY taking things absurdly too far into character regressivism.

[ryou766]

I just thought about this, and it's my own personal headcanon-symbolism: but the Tsufurujin planet was essentially Planet Vegeta after the Saiyans had taken over right? Goku had fought Bebi on the once Planet Vegeta - his home planet. But while in his Oozaru form, he was still reaching out to Earth. Just thought that was a nice little touch.

[Lord Beerus]

The ending. Episode 64 is the standout episode of GT and one of the standout episodes of the entire anime franchise. For all the shit I and several fans give GT, I will defend that episode as one of the greatest episodes the anime franchise has ever produced. The final five minutes in particular just kill me. It was just masterfully handled. And if they reused that episode for the final episode of Super, I honestly wouldn't mind one bit. GT ended story perfectly.

The concept of the Shadow Dragons. The pure idea of the Shadow Dragons made them the ideal candidate final villain for any kind of Dragon Ball story. It just feels so cumulative that the story began with the Dragon Balls and ends with them being a threat to the universe. And it helps that Old Kai remonstrated the main case for how they abuse the Dragon Balls in the Majin Boo arc, so in reality, the Shadow Dragon were bound happen at one point or another at in Dragon Ball and it wouldn't have felt out of place at all because it was foreshadowed.

While I thought the SSJ4 form is when Dragon Ball jumped the shark, I won't lie, the whole transformation sequence was wonderfully handled. The homage to the long lost form Oozaru while also tying it into the lore of the Original Super Saiyan and managing combine the characteristic of controlling your rage, much like Super Saiyan. Just fantastic.

Majin Boo saying goodbye to Mr Satan and fusing with Oob felt so complete and great way to send of a character while also progressing another. It's just a shame GT didn't do much Oob after that point.

Other little things GT got right:
- The soundtrack
- Baby tying into the Tuffles/Saiyan lore
- SSJ4 Gogeta's shenanigans

[ABED]

characters grow up, age, change, and revolve in and out of Goku's (our central protagonist and series fixture) life. Nothing stays static. GT is, overall generally speaking, VERY good about maintaining this crucial aspect of the series.

His body changes, but his personality is still that of his older self. He doesn't change, just his body. You make it sound like he reverts to his younger self in both body and mind. He's still acts like Pan's grandfather. It adds some good moments of humor. I do think that he should've reaged at a certain point, but it was fun.

That being said, one of the Boo arc's biggest missed opportunities and faults was not following through on its initial notion of "Goku's gone, time to pass the torch onto the next generation"

ANd I'm glad they didn't because Goku was still in his prime and Gohan isn't intereting as the main hero of a fighting manga. Toriyama back pedalled and thank god becuase it is Goku's story. Goku is the more fitting hero for the story.

the most blatant, cynical, and naked instance in GT of the marketing tail wagging the creative dog

Cynical?

Here are Toei's own words concerning why Goku was turned into a kid: "The scriptwriters felt that it would be too hard to do anything with the adult Gokuu after he defeated Majin Buu. Further, the show has always revolved around Gokuu's growing stronger. So, the writers decided to make him a child again, and take away his teleport ability." Just because you don't like a questionable creative decision doesn't mean you know why they made the decision.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

The overall biggest point in GT's favor is that despite its "corporate cash-in" origins, SOMEONE behind the scenes still genuinely gave a shit and put real effort into this.

This is why I'm a lot easier on it then I should be because I know under all its mistakes is a team trying to make something good and this is what differentiates it from Super.

Did they succeed ? not really but at least it felt more like a story rather then a merchandise commercial.

1. The same can be said about Super, they just had the unfortune luck of being put to work without proper preparation.

2. GT can be label as such, any product that came after the manga can be label as merchandise commercial/cash grab since what they is nithing more than to advertise either the source material or the franchise as a whole.

[sintzu]

This is why I'm a lot easier on it then I should be because I know under all its mistakes is a team trying to make something good and this is what differentiates it from Super.

Did they succeed ? not really but at least it felt more like a story rather then a merchandise commercial.

1. The same can be said about Super, they just had the unfortunate luck of being put to work without proper preparation.

2. GT can be label as such, any product that came after the manga can be label as merchandise commercial/cash grab since what they is nothing more than to advertise either the source material or the franchise as a whole.

1- That can only excuse the production quality which for me it doesn't but in no way does it excuse the atrocious writing and lazy plots. The Trunks arc has the potential to be great but from what we've seen it won't be from a writing standpoint cause it's just as bad as before but hopefully Toriyama's plot will have more effort put into it than his Freeza and Champa plots.

2- I know but GT tried to hide it while Super goes out of its way to let you know it wants to sell toys and hero cards.

[Lord Beerus]

This is why I'm a lot easier on it then I should be because I know under all its mistakes is a team trying to make something good and this is what differentiates it from Super.

Did they succeed ? not really but at least it felt more like a story rather then a merchandise commercial.

1. The same can be said about Super, they just had the unfortunate luck of being put to work without proper preparation.

2. GT can be label as such, any product that came after the manga can be label as merchandise commercial/cash grab since what they is nothing more than to advertise either the source material or the franchise as a whole.

1- That can only excuse the production quality which for me it doesn't but in no way does it excuse the atrocious writing and lazy plots. The Trunks arc has the potential to be great but from what we've seen it won't be from a writing standpoint cause it's just as bad as before but hopefully Toriyama's plot will have more effort put into it than his Freeza and Champa plots.

2- I know but GT tried to hide it while Super goes out of its way to let you know it wants to sell toys and hero cards.

In what way? Through advertisements? Like every other form of media aimed at children ever?

[Kunzait_83]

the most blatant, cynical, and naked instance in GT of the marketing tail wagging the creative dog

Cynical?

Here are Toei's own words concerning why Goku was turned into a kid: "The scriptwriters felt that it would be too hard to do anything with the adult Gokuu after he defeated Majin Buu. Further, the show has always revolved around Gokuu's growing stronger. So, the writers decided to make him a child again, and take away his teleport ability." Just because you don't like a questionable creative decision doesn't mean you know why they made the decision.

That's still some pretty dumb reasoning for doing it anyway. And also, if (as I suspect) cynical marketing logic played into it, that's not exactly the sort of thing that Toei (or any studio) would broadcast in its PR.

[ABED]

the most blatant, cynical, and naked instance in GT of the marketing tail wagging the creative dog

Cynical?

Here are Toei's own words concerning why Goku was turned into a kid: "The scriptwriters felt that it would be too hard to do anything with the adult Gokuu after he defeated Majin Buu. Further, the show has always revolved around Gokuu's growing stronger. So, the writers decided to make him a child again, and take away his teleport ability." Just because you don't like a questionable creative decision doesn't mean you know why they made the decision.

That's still some pretty dumb reasoning for doing it anyway. And also, if (as I suspect) cynical marketing logic played into it, that's not exactly the sort of thing that Toei (or any studio) would broadcast in its PR.

But you know just know. And how is any of that cynical?

[ekrolo2]

I'd probably dislike Goku being turned into a kid if he wasn't actually written more mature than any basically anything else. In GT, he's actually shown giving a damn about the Earth and his closest companions and when Baby beats him, he's not "Man! This guys so strong!". Instead, he feels sad and disappointed this guys going to take over his world and he can't do a damn thing about it.

Some might say this is Goku being written out of character but given how Goku's character does nothing but fuck all with a healthy dose of fuck yourself after Namek, I'll take this Goku's who's somewhat wizened up. Even Super, in a rare moment of good writing, showed Goku is capable of giving a damn about something other than fighting when he gets sick and has to bond with Pan.