Was the two base/suppressed ki theory finally confirmed?

[Chiki]

Vegeta said that Goku isn't even close to his true power against Black. When Trunks asks "how is that possible?" (which indicates he didn't know about Goku and Vegeta suppressing their power) Vegeta simply says a lot happened, meaning SSG happened and they have been hiding their SSG power ever since Trunks came. Looks like the writers finally mentioned the two base theory.

This means several things:

1. Trunks isn't aware of SSG-level power (meaning he can't defeat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base unlike some people have claimed)
2. Trunks wasn't able to tell that Goku was suppressing his true power (meaning he couldn't feel his SSG power)
3. Vegeta confirmed that Goku can be a lot stronger if he wants to be

According to the one base theory, Base Trunks can defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. But this is impossible since Trunks has no idea about SSG-level power, which he would need to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Trunks is only DBZ SSJ2 level, which makes perfect sense.

Thoughts?

[Draconic]

Vegeta said that Goku isn't even close to his true power against Black. When Trunks asks "how is that possible?" (which indicates he didn't know about Goku and Vegeta suppressing their power) Vegeta simply says a lot happened, meaning SSG happened and they have been hiding their SSG power ever since Trunks came. Looks like the writers finally mentioned the two base theory.

This means several things:

1. Trunks isn't aware of SSG-level power (meaning he can't defeat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base unlike some people have claimed)
2. Trunks wasn't able to tell that Goku was suppressing his true power (meaning he couldn't feel his SSG power)
3. Vegeta confirmed that Goku can be a lot stronger if he wants to be

According to the one base theory, Base Trunks can defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. But this is impossible since Trunks has no idea about SSG-level power, which he would need to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Trunks is only DBZ SSJ2 level, which makes perfect sense.

Thoughts?

No and it never will, because it doesn't make any sense and is not supported by anything.

1. Well, of course. You don't need to be SSG level of power to defeat Gotenks. Buutenks/Buuhan/Vegetto level is more than enough.
2. You can still feel Goku in his base form, no matter if he has God powers or not. The only unsensable form is Super Saiyan Blue. Gaining a power-up from the God powers doesn't mean he is actually Super Saiyan God level, just that he powered up a lot (pre-God, Goku wouldn't even have been able to beat Namek Freeza in his base form, while he overpowers a stronger version of Freeza during the Ressurection of F arc).
3. Well, of course. Super Saiyan Blue is much stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Of course he can get stronger.

I don't think anyone is saying that Trunks is able to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks in base. He MIGHT be able to do it in SSJ2 form, but that's another thing. Last episode, it was clear that Goku was holding back against Trunks and this episode proves that Goku's SSJ2 is stronger than Black, who was trashing Trunks for years, so the chain of power goes like this (swap Vegeta instead of Goku as you please, since they are pretty much equal):

Base Goku BoG < SSJ Goku BoG < SSJ2 Trunks <= SSJ2 Goku BoG < SSJ3 Goku BoG < Base Goku now < SSJ3 Gotenks < SSJ Goku now < Black <= SSJ2 Goku now < SSJ3 Goku now < SSJ Blue

I don't see how this is hard to grasp and why you need ass pulls like two-base theory to work this out.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Vegeta said that Goku isn't even close to his true power against Black. When Trunks asks "how is that possible?" (which indicates he didn't know about Goku and Vegeta suppressing their power) Vegeta simply says a lot happened, meaning SSG happened and they have been hiding their SSG power ever since Trunks came. Looks like the writers finally mentioned the two base theory.

This means several things:

1. Trunks isn't aware of SSG-level power (meaning he can't defeat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base unlike some people have claimed)
2. Trunks wasn't able to tell that Goku was suppressing his true power (meaning he couldn't feel his SSG power)
3. Vegeta confirmed that Goku can be a lot stronger if he wants to be

According to the one base theory, Base Trunks can defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. But this is impossible since Trunks has no idea about SSG-level power, which he would need to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Trunks is only DBZ SSJ2 level, which makes perfect sense.

Thoughts?

He couldn't feel he was holding back because Trunks can't sense the upper level of God Ki not because he can't feel Goku regularly.

[Chiki]

He couldn't feel he was holding back because Trunks can't sense the upper level of God Ki not because he can't feel Goku regularly.

? There's no evidence to support that statement. In RoF everyone could feel Base Goku's ki.

[Bullza]

No because if it was actually a thing the writers of the show would have made that clear to their viewers months upon months ago and they haven't.

[HeroR]

Vegeta said that Goku isn't even close to his true power against Black. When Trunks asks "how is that possible?" (which indicates he didn't know about Goku and Vegeta suppressing their power) Vegeta simply says a lot happened, meaning SSG happened and they have been hiding their SSG power ever since Trunks came. Looks like the writers finally mentioned the two base theory.

This means several things:

1. Trunks isn't aware of SSG-level power (meaning he can't defeat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base unlike some people have claimed)
2. Trunks wasn't able to tell that Goku was suppressing his true power (meaning he couldn't feel his SSG power)
3. Vegeta confirmed that Goku can be a lot stronger if he wants to be

According to the one base theory, Base Trunks can defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. But this is impossible since Trunks has no idea about SSG-level power, which he would need to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Trunks is only DBZ SSJ2 level, which makes perfect sense.

Thoughts?

No and it never will, because it doesn't make any sense and is not supported by anything.

1. Well, of course. You don't need to be SSG level of power to defeat Gotenks. Buutenks/Buuhan/Vegetto level is more than enough.
2. You can still feel Goku in his base form, no matter if he has God powers or not. The only unsensable form is Super Saiyan Blue. Gaining a power-up from the God powers doesn't mean he is actually Super Saiyan God level, just that he powered up a lot (pre-God, Goku wouldn't even have been able to beat Namek Freeza in his base form, while he overpowers a stronger version of Freeza during the Ressurection of F arc).
3. Well, of course. Super Saiyan Blue is much stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Of course he can get stronger.

I don't think anyone is saying that Trunks is able to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks in base. He MIGHT be able to do it in SSJ2 form, but that's another thing. Last episode, it was clear that Goku was holding back against Trunks and this episode proves that Goku's SSJ2 is stronger than Black, who was trashing Trunks for years, so the chain of power goes like this (swap Vegeta instead of Goku as you please, since they are pretty much equal):

Base Goku BoG < SSJ Goku BoG < SSJ2 Trunks <= SSJ2 Goku BoG < SSJ3 Goku BoG < Base Goku now < SSJ3 Gotenks < SSJ Goku now < Black <= SSJ2 Goku now < SSJ3 Goku now < SSJ Blue

I don't see how this is hard to grasp and why you need ass pulls like two-base theory to work this out.

From the fight, Black was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. He only really started to lose once he began to be sucked into the time portal.

[dbgtFO]

No because if it was actually a thing the writers of the show would have made that clear to their viewers months upon months ago and they haven't.

You are not one of the writers, so you don't get to say, what they would do in any given situation and claim that as proof of anything.

Also the 2 base theory wasn't confirmed, certainly not near enough to the extent that I'd want it, and clearly not enough to make 1 base theorists change their minds.

I still stand by my claim, that by definition it is a thing, as per Goku's explanation of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, ie "this is the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God." Thus a Saiyan without the power of Super Saiyan God would just turn Super Saiyan, thus 2 base theory confirmed by definition.

[Chiki]

No because if it was actually a thing the writers of the show would have made that clear to their viewers months upon months ago and they haven't.

You are not one of the writers, so you don't get to say, what they would do in any given situation and claim that as proof of anything.

Also the 2 base theory wasn't confirmed, certainly not near enough to the extent that I'd want it, and clearly not enough to make 1 base theorists change their minds.

I still stand by my claim, that by definition it is a thing, as per Goku's explanation of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, ie "this is the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God." Thus a Saiyan without the power of Super Saiyan God would just turn Super Saiyan, thus 2 base theory confirmed by definition.

I agree with this post.

[GodKaio-Ken]

He couldn't feel he was holding back because Trunks can't sense the upper level of God Ki not because he can't feel Goku regularly.

? There's no evidence to support that statement. In RoF everyone could feel Base Goku's ki.

I don't think you understood what I just said. Maybe I worded poorly?

Trunks could feel Goku fighting Black. If anything Trunks couldn't feel the next level of Goku's power which is God Ki. In other words Trunks can't feel the ceiling of Goku.

[Chiki]

He couldn't feel he was holding back because Trunks can't sense the upper level of God Ki not because he can't feel Goku regularly.

? There's no evidence to support that statement. In RoF everyone could feel Base Goku's ki.

I don't think you understood what I just said. Maybe I worded poorly?

Trunks could feel Goku fighting Black. If anything Trunks couldn't feel the next level of Goku's power which is God Ki. In other words Trunks can't feel the ceiling of Goku.

Hang on. Then it makes no sense for Goku to be evenly matched with Black. Trunks sensed both Black and Goku's kis, remember?

[GodKaio-Ken]

I honestly don't understand what you're getting at, hopefully I will understand in the next few posts. Its an interesting discussion

Neither Goku nor Black was fighting very hard. They were playing games with one another. You can't measure any power levels based on that fight IMO

Also to me its pretty obvious Black somehow absorbs either the fighting style/power/abilities of those he fights as the fight progresses. He said something to that effect based on the Herms translation I read. I havent watched with Subs yet so I'll have to go back and find it.

There is no way to really tell how strong Black is/isn't compared to Goku yet.

[Bullza]

You are not one of the writers, so you don't get to say, what they would do in any given situation and claim that as proof of anything.

If they haven't said that it's a thing over 30 episodes after it would have been a thing then it's not a thing. Someone like Toriyama who purposefully tries not to make the show too confusing so kids can enjoy it is not going to then purposefully make it confusing by having two different levels of the same forms without any explanation of it.

I still stand by my claim, that by definition it is a thing, as per Goku's explanation of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, ie "this is the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God." Thus a Saiyan without the power of Super Saiyan God would just turn Super Saiyan, thus 2 base theory confirmed by definition.

If it were as simple as that then Goku would have already have turned into a Super Saiyan Blue in Battle of Gods but he didn't.

There was also the clear implication that them powering up their Ki without leaking it out was a vital part of what Super Saiyan Blue was as well.

So Super Saiyan is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of God while letting his Ki leak out which is why it's strong enough to fight Beerus and can still be sensed.

And Super Saiyan Blue is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a God while not letting his Ki leak out which is why it's stronger and can't be sensed.

Easy.

[Chiki]

I honestly don't understand what you're getting at, hopefully I will understand in the next few posts. Its an interesting discussion

Neither Goku nor Black was fighting very hard. They were playing games with one another. You can't measure any power levels based on that fight IMO

Also to me its pretty obvious Black somehow absorbs either the fighting style/power/abilities of those he fights as the fight progresses. He said something to that effect based on the Herms translation I read. I havent watched with Subs yet so I'll have to go back and find it.

There is no way to really tell how strong Black is/isn't compared to Goku yet.

I'm talking about how strong Black was AT THE TIME. Trunks felt both of their strengths. Black, who is slightly above SSJ2 Trunks, was being handled pretty easily by SSJ2 Goku. This means that Goku was SSJ2 Buu arc level at the time (judging from Trunks feeling his ki) and so was Black.

The only way around this is to say that Trunks is SSG level, which is an idiotic thing to say and it was deconfirmed this ep by Vegeta's statement. Trunks knows nothing about SSG-levels of strength.

[ZombieVito]

No because if it was actually a thing the writers of the show would have made that clear to their viewers months upon months ago and they haven't.

You are not one of the writers, so you don't get to say, what they would do in any given situation and claim that as proof of anything.

Also the 2 base theory wasn't confirmed, certainly not near enough to the extent that I'd want it, and clearly not enough to make 1 base theorists change their minds.

I still stand by my claim, that by definition it is a thing, as per Goku's explanation of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, ie "this is the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God." Thus a Saiyan without the power of Super Saiyan God would just turn Super Saiyan, thus 2 base theory confirmed by definition.

It kinda makes sense doesn't it? Wish they could make it clear though.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

all thats stated in the episode is that black currently isnt a problem since goku is far stronger than what he showed, which is a reference to super saiyan blue, not that he was holding back in lesser forms. there is no further implication.
this is the most pathetic case of confirmation bias that i have ever seen and it doesnt help that the theory itself doesnt make any sense to begin with.

[Hit!!]

How i see it, God ki is like a switch that you could turn on and off at will. Maybe it's by letting your ki leak out or not letting your power leak out. Either way, it's obvious Goku and Vegeta can control their God ki, but one thing is clear, their god ki is there no matter what. Even if Goku is transformed into his golden forms (ssj, ssj2 and ssj3), there is God ki firing in his body and the same can be said in his base form. I think ssjGod is his base form with FULL GOD KI MODE and ssjBlue is his ssj form with FULL GOD KI MODE. Maybe there's a ssj2Blue and a ssj3Blue.

[HeroR]

How i see it, God ki is like a switch that you could turn on and off at will. Maybe it's by letting your ki leak out or not letting your power leak out. Either way, it's obvious Goku and Vegeta can control their God ki, but one thing is clear, their god ki is there no matter what. Even if Goku is transformed into his golden forms (ssj, ssj2 and ssj3), there is God ki firing in his body and the same can be said in his base form. I think ssjGod is his base form with FULL GOD KI MODE and ssjBlue is his ssj form with FULL GOD KI MODE. Maybe there's a ssj2Blue and a ssj3Blue.

It wouldn't be god ki since the only forms with confirmed god ki are Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. The rest of their forms are powered with regular ki that can be sensed. It's just much greater thanks to Goku absorbing the power of godhood and Vegeta training with Whis. We know from Golden Freeza and Hit that god ki isn't completely necessary to wrack a god.

[Xeztin]

In the anime? No in my opinion because we haven't really seen anything other than a few weird power scalings like in the RoF arc. In my opinion I believe SSG is Goku's second base in the manga, but we don't know if Goku can still use it in the anime or not. I think if Goku can use SSG in the anime, we'll see it in this arc.

[TheMikado]

In the anime? No in my opinion because we haven't really seen anything other than a few weird power scalings like in the RoF arc. In my opinion I believe SSG is Goku's second base in the manga, but we don't know if Goku can still use it in the anime or not. I think if Goku can use SSG in the anime, we'll see it in this arc.

I agree except that I think the way it was outlined means it was supposed to be in Super but the writers F'ed up. Also Black can't be using God Ki because Trunks wouldn't be able to sense him.

[brett wheeler]

I'm sure I'm giong to get a lot of flack for this but I believe yet dont believe in the 2 base theory I believe base goku is around ssj vegito lvl and can still go ssj1-3 but not nowhere near the power of the gods as for ssb goku and its definition we always asume there is only 2 explanations but there looks to be 3 the 3rd says that ( like in the manga ) goku and vegeta can go ssg at will ( whether the anime is giong to give visual cues to that or not is up to the staff at toie but it would be really confusing if they didnt ) and all ssb is is goku/vegeta using ssg and infusing it with ssj by controlling there ki thus creating a new form that is a mutation of ssg and even stronger since its amped up by ssj this makes sense since goku showed no signs of powering up to deflect first form frieza attack and vegeta took down ginyu in tagoma body easy without powering up and tagoma was around ultimate gohan lvl ( and yes it was stated that tagoma was close to gohans power in his prime and I have confirmed with a few friends that are fluent in japaneese that he meant his ultimate lvl ) and base copy vegeta was over powering a ssj3 gotenks easy so the way I see it is buuhan < base trunks < ssj vegito/base goku/vegeta <ssj trunks < ssj goku/vegeta/ssj2 trunks < ssj2 goku/vegeta/black < ssj3 goku < rageta <<<<<<<<ssg goku/vegeta<ssb goku/vegeta<champa<beerus << whis < vados <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< zeno gaurds <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< zeno that the best way it can all make since power scaling wise and I put trunks inbetween buuhan and base goku/vegeta because he was weaker than goku them both in ssj 2 but not monstrously so I say he was only under them thats the best way I could come up with power scaling for super