Was the two base/suppressed ki theory finally confirmed?

[LightBing]

How is there a two base states in the manga(debatable in the anime), if you're calling SSJG base? It's a transformation, not a base state.

In the manga it went:
Base to SSJ to SSJG to SSJB

Where's the second base in all of this?

[Chiki]

How is there a two base states in the manga(debatable in the anime), if you're calling SSJG base? It's a transformation, not a base state.

In the manga it went:
Base to SSJ to SSJG to SSJB

Where's the second base in all of this?

According to the two base theory, there is a transformation state called Saiyan Beyond God which is just as powerful as SSG. The only difference is visual. They're absolutely equal in terms of power. Goku absorbed the power but lost the ability to make it visible, just like in BoG.

[LightBing]

How is there a two base states in the manga(debatable in the anime), if you're calling SSJG base? It's a transformation, not a base state.

In the manga it went:
Base to SSJ to SSJG to SSJB

Where's the second base in all of this?

According to the two base theory, there is a transformation state called Saiyan Beyond God which is just as powerful as SSG. The only difference is visual. They're absolutely equal in terms of power. Goku absorbed the power but lost the ability to make it visible, just like in BoG.

But he didn't absorb it in the manga BoG arc. I don't see any proof that such a state exists.
I'll quote myself from the Super Manga thread:

There's no two bases in the manga. If your point is that Base Goku was able to survive Hit, the assassin is holding back. Both Goku and Hit say that "the real fight will start now", the moment Goku goes SSJ.

Further proof: Undigested Food Goku is equal to Weight-Suit Goku, said so by Champa. It's fairly logical that Goku while training, was giving his best. Since him at this capability was taking hits from Botamo, he's pretty weak and nowhere near "God Tier".

If SSJ2 and SSJ3 are still usable forms in the manga remains to be seen. With this said the natural progression of Goku should be as follows:
Base
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Blue

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

This problem is so easily solved. Frost is stronger than Namek Frieza by quite a bit (SPC level or a bit above) because he gets more exercise in his world due to his good guy act. We know, from the anime, that he goes around killing bad guys. So he gets some exercise from that. Cell arc Piccolo was below Cell Junior level iirc, so that would put Piccolo at weaker than SPC. Frost is still below Buu level though, who is between Buu arc SSJ3 and Cell arc SSJ2.

Cell arc Piccolo was weaker than a Cell Jr. Why assume Champa arc Piccolo is exactly the same as he was nearly 10 yrs ago? We're never given a reason to assume he stopped training. Super Perfect Cell is trash by this point. A tired Frost required Vegeta to transform into a Super Saiyan to one-shot because his Base couldn't do it. Using their power in Base requires no visible effort, yet changing into a Super Saiyan does require effort. More reason why the two Base theory makes things more complicated than necessary.

Thus, SSG (Base 2) Goku >> FF RoF Frieza >>>>>>>>>>>> Buu <=> Champa SS Goku > FF Frost > Champa Piccolo > Base Goku

Base Goku was equal to ROF Freeza. Base Goku after training for 3 yrs would be above him.

Super Saiyan Goku>Final Form Frost>Assault Form Frost>Base Goku (Rosat training)>Final Form Freeza=Base Goku (Whis training)

Whis and the Oracle Fish talked about Super Saiyan as if it'd still be well above their newly powered-up Base forms. This is before they reached Super Saiyan Blue. Therefore, I see no need to separate Super Saiyan Goku from the ROF saga when he'd still be relevant in that saga, too. Or are you going to say they have a Super Saiyan state mixed with God Chi? If so, that'd be Super Saiyan Blue.

The two base theory perfectly explains everything.

It's still a mess with or without the theory. The theory itself needlessly complicates things instead of going with a formula the series has followed from the very jump. Introducing enemies stronger than the previous ones.

Basically in the two base scenario Piccolo should be stronger than SSJ1 Goku (original base) and Frost.
In the one base scenario Piccolo should be weaker than both Frost and SSJ1 Goku (God base).

I just want to say I appreciate your posts since you're not a stubborn guy and you're willing to listen to reason unlike some other members on this forum. But you've completely misunderstood the scenario here. According to the two base scenario, Piccolo is quite a bit weaker than SS Champa Goku and a bit weaker than Final Form Frost. Piccolo is quite a bit stronger than Base Goku with no SSG power.[/quote]

[Chiki]

But he didn't absorb it in the manga BoG arc. I don't see any proof that such a state exists.

First of all, he did absorb it because he can transform into it, which he couldn't do before. Maybe absorb isn't the right word. But just like in the anime he can access it.

Second, I'm only saying that the two base theory was 100% confirmed in the manga, which it was. By definition for the two base theory, there is a second base with SSG power, and that is SSG. It's that simple.

There's no two bases in the manga

Sorry, but you can't debate against this. It's just by definition true and it's literally impossible to argue against something that is by definition true. It's like trying to tell Donald Trump that his name isn't Trump.

For example, a bachelor by definition is an unmarried male. I'm guessing you are a bachelor. By definition, you are an unmarried male.

The two base theory states that Goku has two forms without Super Saiyan power: Base and (visible or invisible) SSG. He has this in the manga. That's what the theory states, and we saw it in the manga, therefore it's correct. Sorry but you can't debate against this.

Cell arc Piccolo was weaker than a Cell Jr. Why assume Champa arc Piccolo is exactly the same as he was nearly 10 yrs ago? We're never given a reason to assume he stopped training.

I agree, in fact I argued against supercat thinking it was dumb for him to not train at all. But there's no reason to think Piccolo got an immense power boost, I'd still put him around Perfect Cell level or above that during Champa arc.

Super Perfect Cell is trash by this point

Circular argument. Only if the one base theory is true.

Base Goku was equal to ROF Freeza. Base Goku after training for 3 yrs would be above him.

...Circular argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

To disprove the two base theory, you're presupposing that it is false. You can't disprove the existence of the two base theory by assuming that it doesn't exist. According to the two base theory, SSG Goku is above RoF Final Form Frieza. According to the two base theory, Base Goku is NOT above Final Form Frieza. Base-SSG Goku IS.

It's still a mess with or without the theory. The theory itself needlessly complicates things instead of going with a formula the series has followed from the very jump. Introducing enemies stronger than the previous ones.

For you perhaps, but ever since the manga came out with the SSG reveal everyone on Reddit keeps talking about how the power levels all make sense now. Most people can understand it just fine.

[TheMikado]

I just want to say I appreciate your posts since you're not a stubborn guy and you're willing to listen to reason unlike some other members on this forum. But you've completely misunderstood the scenario here. According to the two base scenario, Piccolo is quite a bit weaker than SS Champa Goku and a bit weaker than Final Form Frost. Piccolo is quite a bit stronger than Base Goku with no SSG power.

You do understand how it doesn't make sense to randomly put Piccolo above base Goku but well below SSJ1 Goku right? If it was SSJ2 Goku you might have an argument, but considering how much stronger Piccolo was and I would agree with other. Close to is not at SSJ2 levels having him weaker than A weakened Frost who is already well below SSJ1 Goku levels is a bit of a stretch. Basically we know have two problems.

One scenario fixes the problem of make the characters too weak by making them too strong.
While the other fixes it by making them too strong so you don't have the problem of characters being too weak.

I am not saying the SSG form doesn't act as a second base because it definitely does in the manga, but thinking about it now Piccolo being weaker than SSJ1 Goku doesn't make sense either especially if this form has no God Ki in it.

[Chiki]

I just want to say I appreciate your posts since you're not a stubborn guy and you're willing to listen to reason unlike some other members on this forum. But you've completely misunderstood the scenario here. According to the two base scenario, Piccolo is quite a bit weaker than SS Champa Goku and a bit weaker than Final Form Frost. Piccolo is quite a bit stronger than Base Goku with no SSG power.

You do understand how it doesn't make sense to randomly put Piccolo above base Goku but well below SSJ1 Goku right? If it was SSJ2 Goku you might have an argument, but considering how much stronger Piccolo was and I would agree with other. Close to is not at SSJ2 levels having him weaker than A weakened Frost who is already well below SSJ1 Goku levels is a bit of a stretch. Basically we know have two problems.

One scenario fixes the problem of make the characters too weak by making them too strong.
While the other fixes it by making them too strong so you don't have the problem of characters being too weak.

I am not saying the SSG form doesn't act as a second base because it definitely does in the manga, but thinking about it now Piccolo being weaker than SSJ1 Goku doesn't make sense either especially if this form has no God Ki in it.

Why doesn't it make sense? Piccolo was never FPSSJ level. In the Cell arc he was still WAY below Gohan and Goku. LOL

Piccolo never reached FPSSJ level so it makes perfect sense. Goku and Vegeta have been training harder than Piccolo since then. It literally makes no sense for Piccolo to be STRONGER than FPSSJ Goku and Vegeta in the Champa arc.

[LightBing]

First of all, he did absorb it because he can transform into it, which he couldn't do before. Maybe absorb isn't the right word. But just like in the anime he can access it.

Second, I'm only saying that the two base theory was 100% confirmed in the manga, which it was. By definition for the two base theory, there is a second base with SSG power, and that is SSG. It's that simple.

Who's to say SSJG can't be learned? There's no mention of him absorbing anything. No explanation is offered.

Just because you're saying it's confirmed in the manga, doesn't make it true. Please provide evidence. Did you read the counter points I presented?

[Chiki]

First of all, he did absorb it because he can transform into it, which he couldn't do before. Maybe absorb isn't the right word. But just like in the anime he can access it.

Second, I'm only saying that the two base theory was 100% confirmed in the manga, which it was. By definition for the two base theory, there is a second base with SSG power, and that is SSG. It's that simple.

Who's to say SSJG can't be learned? There's no mention of him absorbing anything. No explanation is offered.

Just because you're saying it's confirmed in the manga, doesn't make it true. Please provide evidence. Did you read the counter points I presented?

Toriyama himself said Goku got acquainted with the power. But whatever, it's a meaningless debate since whether or not he absorbed it, the two base theory is true in the manga.

Provide evidence? You know the manga had Goku transform into SSG right? That's my evidence LOL

If I have the definition for the two base theory, and Goku goes SSG in the manga, then the two base theory in the manga is proven by simple logic. Hell I'll even give you the proof in formal logic if you want in my next post.

[LightBing]

How is Goku going SSJG proof of anything, when this so called God Base doesn't actually appear in the manga. You're just saying it exists because Goku went SSJG. You aren't offering an actual reasoning for it.

M.Toriyama interviews should be read with a grain of salt, the interview you mentioned is about the movie BoG, not Super's Manga. Which was three years ago, at the time there's were no actual plans to continue past it.

[TheMikado]

The two base theory as applied to the manga is as follows:

The 2nd base is a form where Goku massive power relies almost entirely on God Ki.
Where there is no usage of SSJ to increase power but rather a straight and direct application on Goku without the use of SSJ. This would describe both the proposed 2nd base and the SSG form.
Where both forms regardless or appearance or tranformation function in one key point being the use of KI as the means to increase the users power level without the use of SSJ.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The 2 base theory has never made any sense to me.

[TheMikado]

The 2 base theory has never made any sense to me.

All it means is that Goku has the power to turn God Ki on or off at anytime, in any form. Including base.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

For me, it's simple. If Base Goku really had a Base form that exclusively utilized God Chi, he wouldn't be sensed. Since there's not one point where Base Goku isn't sensed, I don't believe there's a reason to assume he has two different forms. Everyone sensed him when he fought Freeza, implying it was simply his powerful Chi rather than God Chi being sensed.

I think Goku absorbing the God Power simply made him far more powerful than he's ever been. This explains why Base Vegeta could reach a level above or equal to Goku's without absorbing any God Power. Way I see it, the God Power became his own natural power, but becoming Super Saiyan Blue is when he actually became a God. Everything outside of Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue is their powers heightened to another level. That's why Goku and Vegeta can be sensed in every form outside of Super Saiyan Blue.

[Chiki]

How is Goku going SSJG proof of anything, when this so called God Base doesn't actually appear in the manga. You're just saying it exists because Goku went SSJG. You aren't offering an actual reasoning for it.

M.Toriyama interviews should be read with a grain of salt, the interview you mentioned is about the movie BoG, not Super's Manga. Which was three years ago, at the time there's were no actual plans to continue past it.

Because... Goku can go SSG according to the two base theory, visible or invisible? Yes, I'm saying it exists because Goku went SSG, because that is what the two base theory is. It predicts he has a form which is equally powerful to SSG, visible or invisible, and that's exactly what he did in the manga.

For me, it's simple. If Base Goku really had a Base form that exclusively utilized God Chi, he wouldn't be sensed.

Goku is a genius because he learned how to compensate for the lack of god ki with regular ki, which can be sensed, or in SBG form he can utilize his regular ki in addition to god ki. It's an easy problem to solve.

===

Maybe things will become clearer if I formally define the two base theory here: Goku and Vegeta have 2 non-Super Saiyan forms, Base and a Base that is much more powerful than any form. This can be SSG or SBG.

We saw this in the manga so it's true. Sorry guys.

All it means is that Goku has the power to turn God Ki on or off at anytime, in any form. Including base.

Close, but we don't know if he can turn it on with SS2 or SS3 yet. Maybe in the future to get SSB2 and SSB3.

[brett wheeler]

I said this before I'll say it agian goku and vegeta base is just really strong ( around ssj vegito lvl ) when they activate god ki ( like in the manga ) they become ssg when they activate god ki while having control of the 2 different ki's and fusing with ssj they become ssb witch is an evolved god ( witch is what they call it in many sources ) this makes the power scaling easy to understand and makes whis teaching make sense but for goku and vegeta they achieved it 2 diffrent ways goku just absorbed ssg and after he lost it it lingered then hid itself ( also explains why his full power hit didnt do more than send Kuririn flying ) until goku figuered out how to controle his ki to bring the god ki back out and vegeta no one knows but what ever theory you have it doesnt matter the piont is he has god ki and he knows how to bring it out to become a ssg ( even tho it hasn't been shown yet ) and the same applies to ssb and goku got a power up from ssg but after the lingering effects wore off but not to the degree we think he got probably around ultimate gohan to buutenks lvl vegeta got that strong from training with whis now there ssj vegito lvl tell what you think can this power scaling work and make very one happy

[TheMikado]

All it means is that Goku has the power to turn God Ki on or off at anytime, in any form. Including base.

Close, but we don't know if he can turn it on with SS2 or SS3 yet. Maybe in the future to get SSB2 and SSB3.

Based on the theory there would be no technical reason why they can't short of training/stamina issues. Maybe they explode if they do it, who knows.
But in theory if Vegeta had a tail and controled Oozaru he should also be able to activate God ki in that form as well.

[Chiki]

All it means is that Goku has the power to turn God Ki on or off at anytime, in any form. Including base.

Close, but we don't know if he can turn it on with SS2 or SS3 yet. Maybe in the future to get SSB2 and SSB3.

Based on the theory there would be no technical reason why they can't short of training/stamina issues. Maybe they explode if they do it, who knows.
But in theory if Vegeta had a tail and controled Oozaru he should also be able to activate God ki in that form as well.

Yes, that's my preferred power up for Vegeta to compete with Kaioken.

[LightBing]

@Chiki

Seriously, this is the last time I try to reason with you. Is there a miscommunication here that I'm not seeing?

I understand very well what the theory is and what it entails. But once again you failed to provide proof. Either provide proof, saying were did this second base appear in the manga and why should we see it as so. Or like you've been calling people in thread, you're the stubborn one. Nothing is confirmed because you say it is.

I'll try to be more clear:
Did any character mention this second base? Where did it appear? Did any other character take notice of the use of two different bases? Please point out in the manga, where Goku is in one Base and in the other.

You know I want you to actually try to justify this theory. I'm open to admit if I missed something or if you can provide a perspective I didn't imagine.

[generalred3]

@Chiki

Seriously, this is the last time I try to reason with you. Is there a miscommunication here that I'm not seeing?

I understand very well what the theory is and what it entails. But once again you failed to provide proof. Either provide proof, saying were did this second base appear in the manga and why should we see it as so. Or like you've been calling people in thread, you're the stubborn one. Nothing is confirmed because you say it is.

I'll try to be more clear:
Did any character mention this second base? Where did it appear? Did any other character take notice of the use of two different bases? Please point out in the manga, where Goku is in one Base and in the other.

You know I want you to actually try to justify this theory. I'm open to admit if I missed something or if you can provide a perspective I didn't imagine.

I agree, I think I am missing something also. I understand what the theory is and it is definitely interesting however I don't have enough information to agree with it. Manga-wise, wouldn't Goku using SSG kind of debunk the theory considering that it him "turning on" his God ki? Again, if i missed something let me know as admittedly i stopped following the manga. I know one of the reasons people believe in the 2 base is because one of Goku's recent cards label him as saiyan beyond God (i believe was the title). But I only took it as a title. No different than when in trading card games in the past each character was labeled "The Conqueror", "The Valiant", etc. Not trying to ruffle any feathers or get to into a heat debate, I am just curious if there is actually proof that I may have missed. Which honestly is very possible lol.