Was the two base/suppressed ki theory finally confirmed?

[HeroR]

That's worst part in my opinion. Because it makes Goku and Vegeta look like the biggest hypocritical idiots on the face of the planet for how they mocked Freeza for having the same almost crippling flawin his Golden form that SSJB form has for the both of them. And even after training in the ROSAT for three years, they never either overcame the stamina issue with the SSJB form or never noticed it to begin.

That was my biggest problem too. I don't buy that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan still have that crippling weakness after over three years of training, and they lose all that power just by transforming. Not fighting, just Vegeta transforming causes him to lose 90% of his energy, not even Ultra Super Saiyan is that crippling. Worse, there was no foreshadowing. When Vegeta lost to Hit, it was treated as a big deal and to show how dangerous Hit was. Goku nor Whis said never said anything about how Vegeta crippled himself and lost 90% of his power. Vegeta also doesn't lament losing so much energy and at least kick himself for not staying transformed. It's not brought up at all until Beerus asked why Super Saiyan God Goku is doing so well compared to Vegeta. That is horrible storytelling and it makes me wonder if this weakness was just thought up during Chapter 13. At the very least, the energy issue should have been brought up in Chapter 12 after Vegeta lost. And most of all, Vegeta is a freaking moron. He should have stayed transformed once he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan instead of powering down, since apparently, that would have saved way more energy, and Vegeta with his stupid self should have known this since he had three years with this form.

[Lord Beerus]

Given Toyotaro's narration concerning the F arc, it implies Goku and Vegeta actually struggled to beat Freeza in whatever re-write he would've done for the F arc as he states they had to work together. They are aware of its weakness though, Goku even tells Vegeta he could've won against Hit if he hadn't used Blue against Cabba which Vegeta agrees with but he wanted to give Cabba a benchmark of power to strive toward.

I still can't get over that. What a fucking idiot Vegeta is. Unless Cabba has some cabbage to bribe Vados with for some God ki training regime, he ain't getting near SSJB. Hell, he struggled to reach SSJ1. I mean, if he wanted to give Cabba benchamark of power to strive to, he should have powered up into a SSJ2. That's a more realistic target. Or he could have told him to watch the fight between him and Hit, and after getting his ass kicked by Hit, tell him strive to be like Hit.

As for the ROSAT thing, I actually prefer the idea they're going to have to work to master Blue. If we're really keeping them beneath Beerus and Whis for a long time, better to keep them down instead of perpetually keeping them in this "they can beat Beerus and Whis.... except not really" zone the anime has them in.

That is actually something I will Toyotaro an immense amount of credit for. The manga feels way much less "as powerful as the plot demands" than the anime does.

[HeroR]

Given Toyotaro's narration concerning the F arc, it implies Goku and Vegeta actually struggled to beat Freeza in whatever re-write he would've done for the F arc as he states they had to work together. They are aware of its weakness though, Goku even tells Vegeta he could've won against Hit if he hadn't used Blue against Cabba which Vegeta agrees with but he wanted to give Cabba a benchmark of power to strive toward.

I still can't get over that. What a fucking idiot Vegeta is. Unless Cabba has some cabbage to bribe Vados with for some God ki training regime, he ain't getting near SSJB. Hell, he struggled to reach SSJ1. I mean, if he wanted to give Cabba benchamark of power to strive to, he should have powered up into a SSJ2. That's a more realistic target. Or he could have told him to watch the fight between him and Hit, and after getting his ass kicked by Hit, tell him strive to be like Hit.

As for the ROSAT thing, I actually prefer the idea they're going to have to work to master Blue. If we're really keeping them beneath Beerus and Whis for a long time, better to keep them down instead of perpetually keeping them in this "they can beat Beerus and Whis.... except not really" zone the anime has them in.

That is actually something I will Toyotaro an immense amount of credit for. The manga feels way much less "as powerful as the plot demands" than the anime does.

Why would Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan be out of Cabba's reach? His base form is already a matched for Vegeta, meaning he's already in the right direction without Vados' help. Before, Vegeta never got past Super Saiyan 2 and Cabba without Super Saiyan would have destroyed him. And Vegeta struggled with a regular Super Saiyan far more than Cabba did, or did you forget how he nearly killed himself just to becoming normal Super Saiyan.

I don't get why people here keep underplaying the U6's fighters. And powerful as the plot demand has always been a thing in Dragon Ball or any show with powers for that matter. Remember, an old scientist in cave build a series of androids that pisses all over the supposed strongest being in the universe and the legendary Super Saiyan. Complaining about the plot making characters too powerful is just silly.

[TheMikado]

Why do people have a problem with SSB having a weakness? SSJ3 is still a draining form. It only makes sense that a higher level form be even more draining. It would also help explain why Beerus doesn't exert his full strength often, because what ever he needs to do may be a draining experience. Short of the obvious destroying everything.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta said that Goku isn't even close to his true power against Black. When Trunks asks "how is that possible?" (which indicates he didn't know about Goku and Vegeta suppressing their power) Vegeta simply says a lot happened, meaning SSG happened and they have been hiding their SSG power ever since Trunks came. Looks like the writers finally mentioned the two base theory.

This means several things:

1. Trunks isn't aware of SSG-level power (meaning he can't defeat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base unlike some people have claimed)
2. Trunks wasn't able to tell that Goku was suppressing his true power (meaning he couldn't feel his SSG power)
3. Vegeta confirmed that Goku can be a lot stronger if he wants to be

According to the one base theory, Base Trunks can defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. But this is impossible since Trunks has no idea about SSG-level power, which he would need to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Trunks is only DBZ SSJ2 level, which makes perfect sense.

Thoughts?

Vegeta is probably referring to Super Saiyan Blue. He implied current Black is weaker than both Goku and Vegeta, despite being stronger than Trunks, but who knows how strong Black can be. Right now, Trunks only knows how strong is SS3 Goku, he has no way to know how strong Goku and Vegeta truly are. I don't think this has anything to do with the two-base theory, though.

Also, It's not really impossible to surpass Gotenks without the power of Super Saiyan God, plenty characters far weaker than that level could do it. For example, Gohan, Goku, Boo, Vegeta. And, even if it doesn't make perfect sense, the story has been written by several different perspectives, so I don't blame them for slipping a bit. If they want Trunks or Piccolo to be that important, so be it.

[Chiki]

Why would Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan be out of Cabba's reach? His base form is already a matched for Vegeta, meaning he's already in the right direction without Vados' help.

Oh come on. You're talking about the manga right? There's no reason whatsoever to think Cabba is that strong in the manga since SSG is a different power up altogether in the manga. It has nothing to do with Base or with SS. I'll bet money that Base Cabba isn't even Perfect Cell level.

I don't get why people here keep underplaying the U6's fighters. And powerful as the plot demand has always been a thing in Dragon Ball or any show with powers for that matter.

Because, I explained to you in another thread, in the manga just like in the anime Buu was elaborately set up to be one of the strongest fighters in either universe and he was forced to drop out. Why? Because Goku and Vegeta need the spotlight and he would have creamed everyone except Hit.

If you read shonen other than DBZ regularly, you'll know what hype is, and Buu got hyped up to hell. It's statements and actions like those made by the author that make it obvious to anyone who reads shonen regularly that Buu would be ridiculously good in that tournament. And he would've obviously beaten Cabba in one hit.

Also, claiming that Cabba is somehow training well without Whis or Vados's help is ridiculous in itself since Goku and Vegeta who are both prodigies weren't able to come up with Whis or Vados's training tips on their own. Why would Cabba be able to? Is he that much of a genius compared to Goku and Vegeta? No he's not.

Remember, an old scientist in cave build a series of androids that pisses all over the supposed strongest being in the universe and the legendary Super Saiyan.

The Super Saiyan powerup stopped being impressive a long time ago in Z.

[DragonHermit]

The only "weakness" that would make sense with everything so far, is if SSBlue had some time limit, but while in SSBlue the control was good.

[Bullza]

I'll bet money that Base Cabba isn't even Perfect Cell level.

That wouldn't make any sense. Base Goku is stronger than Final From Frieza, Base Vegeta is as strong as Base Goku, they trained and got stronger and Base Cabba was said to be on par with Base Vegeta.

Super Saiyan God being more powerful doesn't make that untrue because it just means it's stronger than Base which we already knew.

Why? Because Goku and Vegeta need the spotlight and he would have creamed everyone except Hit.

Nah that's nothing more than an assumption based on reading into something that just isn't here. They stated the obvious and nothing more, you're just looking for an excuse with this.

Besides those who read shonen regularly would also know that characters generally become as stronger as the series continues. Them making the Universe 6 fighters, the latest challenge for the protagonists, weaker than characters who were a challenge from multiple sagas ago isn't a thing.

The Super Saiyan powerup stopped being impressive a long time ago in Z.

Super Saiyan God isn't impressive anymore either.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Boo being "hyped up" sounds like an exaggeration.

[TheMikado]

The only "weakness" that would make sense with everything so far, is if SSBlue had some time limit, but while in SSBlue the control was good.

Again my theory is that it the weakness was introduced due to poor writing in Toriyama's outline ( oh no, the heresy!).

It's too much of a coincidence that both the manga and the anime found a way to make Goku 10x stronger than Vegeta as a SSB vs. Hit, but took completely different routes and described SSB basically completely different. It sound like this "thick" outline was written on a napkin that said "Make Goku x10 stronger than Vegeta vs. Hit" and that's what everyone ended up doing but trying to fill in the blanks on why that could logically happen.

The other thing that is no coincidence is the fact that SSG reappears with no warning at the exact same power level and sequence people are assuming Goku's 2nd base would be! This is not something that can be ignored. Either the Anime is off outline or the Manga is. Which is it?

I'm of the mind that the Anime completely F'ed it up because we know Toriyama sees more of the production of the manga vs. the anime and it is likely closer to what he was thinking or approves of.

So which is it for you guys? If you had to guess, is the manga more accurate to the outline or the anime?

[Chiki]

The only "weakness" that would make sense with everything so far, is if SSBlue had some time limit, but while in SSBlue the control was good.

Again my theory is that it the weakness was introduced due to poor writing in Toriyama's outline ( oh no, the heresy!).

It's too much of a coincidence that both the manga and the anime found a way to make Goku 10x stronger than Vegeta as a SSB vs. Hit, but took completely different routes and described SSB basically completely different. It sound like this "thick" outline was written on a napkin that said "Make Goku x10 stronger than Vegeta vs. Hit" and that's what everyone ended up doing but trying to fill in the blanks on why that could logically happen.

The other thing that is no coincidence is the fact that SSG reappears with no warning at the exact same power level and sequence people are assuming Goku's 2nd base would be! This is not something that can be ignored. Either the Anime is off outline or the Manga is. Which is it?

I'm of the mind that the Anime completely F'ed it up because we know Toriyama sees more of the production of the manga vs. the anime and it is likely closer to what he was thinking or approves of.

So which is it for you guys? If you had to guess, is the manga more accurate to the outline or the anime?

The manga and anime are equally accurate. The two base theory was already confirmed in the manga. By definition, SSG is Goku's second base. That's literally what the two base theory says. Base is around equal to SSG in terms of power the only difference is that SSG in the anime is invisible.

I've given up trying to convince unreasonable people how to read a manga properly. There are so many hints about the two base theory in the anime, I don't understand why some people are so unreasonably stubborn that they refuse to see what's in front of them.

1. Buu being hyped up by Toriyama both in the anime and in the manga is obvious to anyone who reads shonen regularly. There are countless examples of this in other shonen like
2. Power levels can't be wildly different in the manga and in the anime. Toriyama gave the outlines for both of them. If Cabba, Frost and Magetta are Base-SSJ level in the manga then they very likely are the same in the anime.
3. Trunks can't become stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by training by himself.
4. There's no reason to believe that people like Cabba, Frost (without training) and Magetta are SSG level. Vegeta even calls Cabba weak.
5. Piccolo can't become stronger or almost as strong as Base SSG Goku by training with Gohan.
6. The two base theory was already confirmed in the manga.
7. According to the one base theory, Goku shouldn't be able to turn SSJ since SSG + SS = SSB.
8. Goku/Vegeta never use SS in the anime where the two base theory predicts them not to (Frieza, Hit, Copy Vegeta). This can't just be a coincidence.

When I tell people outside this forum what conclusions some people on Kanzenshuu have drawn from watching, they literally just laugh at the ridiculous idea that Base Trunks can defeat SSJ3 Gotenks easily.

I'm sure that Goku will want Buu to participate in Zeno-sama''s tournament. And that will make everything clearer to the folks who don't understand the evidence for the two base theory.

Boo being "hyped up" sounds like an exaggeration.

Try reading some other shonen regularly like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece etc. and it'll seem incredibly obvious to you. Why else do you think the author would go through all that effort to make Buu drop out? For fun?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I've read enough Shonen. It still seems like an exaggeration. Mr. Boo is probably the most overrated character in Super considering he's done nothing but get stomped by Beers. Goku said he was "crazy strong" when angry and that was it.

[Chiki]

I've read enough Shonen. It still seems like an exaggeration. Mr. Boo is probably the most overrated character in Super considering he's done nothing but get stomped by Beers. Goku said he was "crazy strong" when angry and that was it.

So what? Almost everyone can get stomped by Beerus. That has nothing to do with how he would do against the U6 fighters.

[ClinicalBM]

No, Vegeta was taking about their blue/SSJ god mode.

Trunks got a lot stronger during the year Black was beating him up (zenkai boosts) with black training/bettering himself basically off it as well. Yes, SS2 Trunks is probably a tad stronger than Gotens SSJ3 now, who couldn't hadle copy base Vegeta at all.

Goku's and Vegeta's base is now probably a tad stronger than Vegito back in the Buu saga. I think Beerus didn't go all-out (not even the said 70 %) once Goku's God mode power stopped and his power eventually decreased, the fight didn't last long after that. But his base is still very, very strong now, especially with all the extra training.

Black is stronger than Vegito I think. I also think he has a SSJ-God transformation, which he will show next time they fight.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I've read enough Shonen. It still seems like an exaggeration. Mr. Boo is probably the most overrated character in Super considering he's done nothing but get stomped by Beers. Goku said he was "crazy strong" when angry and that was it.

So what? Almost everyone can get stomped by Beerus. That has nothing to do with how he would do against the U6 fighters.

He never fought against the U6 fighters, so how he'd do is all opinion. Can you prove he'd beat Frost? Magetta? I doubt it. Magetta without his stupid weakness would stomp Mr. Boo considering he was on Super Saiyan Vegeta's level.

[Chiki]

I've read enough Shonen. It still seems like an exaggeration. Mr. Boo is probably the most overrated character in Super considering he's done nothing but get stomped by Beers. Goku said he was "crazy strong" when angry and that was it.

So what? Almost everyone can get stomped by Beerus. That has nothing to do with how he would do against the U6 fighters.

He never fought against the U6 fighters, so how he'd do is all opinion. Can you prove he'd beat Frost? Magetta? I doubt it. Magetta without his stupid weakness would stomp Mr. Boo considering he was on Super Saiyan Vegeta's level.

It's obvious that he would if you read the manga. Piccolo didn't train with Gohan in the manga, yet he performed well against Frost, who never trains according to Goku. Buu is ridiculously more powerful than Piccolo. And we know for a fact that neither Frost nor Piccolo are SSG level or anywhere near it in the manga because Goku has access to that form at will. So there are no bullshit power ups in the manga; everything makes sense. The manga has the two base theory just by definition, so there's no reason to think that Buu would do badly against Frost.

Even if Buu was weaker than Magetta, he would turn him into chocolate and he has almost infinite regeneration anyway. Also Frost's poison would have no effect on Buu, probably.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo was fighting on the defensive against a weakened Frost. This doesn't change the fact that Frost was way stronger than him when not weakened. How does this translate to Mr. Boo beating Frost? Also, since when did regeneration prevent Mr. Boo from getting knocked out? They don't need to completely destroy Boo because it's not allowed within the rules. All they need to do is knock his ass out of the ring or unconscious.

Boo can try to turn Magetta into chocolate, but that doesn't mean Magetta would allow it to happen. That also shows that Boo really isn't anything special.

[TheMikado]

Piccolo was fighting on the defensive against a weakened Frost. This doesn't change the fact that Frost was way stronger than him when not weakened. How does this translate to Mr. Boo beating Frost? Also, since when did regeneration prevent Mr. Boo from getting knocked out? They don't need to completely destroy Boo because it's not allowed within the rules. All they need to do is knock his ass out of the ring or unconscious.

Boo can try to turn Magetta into chocolate, but that doesn't mean Magetta would allow it to happen. That also shows that Boo really isn't anything special.

Ok I can see why you would think Frost must be God level, because if he was just normal Frieza level Piccolo should have been able to take him without a problem.

Basically if there were two bases in that scenario and one was the original weak base with a SSJ multiplier on top, then Piccolo should have easily out powered a SSJ1 Goku, but if he has one base which is already past SSJ3 and uses SSJ on top of that then it makes sense for Piccolo to be weaker than that SSJ form.

Basically in the two base scenario Piccolo should be stronger than SSJ1 Goku (original base) and Frost.
In the one base scenario Piccolo should be weaker than both Frost and SSJ1 Goku (God base).

[ssbgoku]

Piccolo was fighting on the defensive against a weakened Frost. This doesn't change the fact that Frost was way stronger than him when not weakened. How does this translate to Mr. Boo beating Frost? Also, since when did regeneration prevent Mr. Boo from getting knocked out? They don't need to completely destroy Boo because it's not allowed within the rules. All they need to do is knock his ass out of the ring or unconscious.

Boo can try to turn Magetta into chocolate, but that doesn't mean Magetta would allow it to happen. That also shows that Boo really isn't anything special.

Ok I can see why you would think Frost must be God level, because if he was just normal Frieza level Piccolo should have been able to take him without a problem.

Basically if there were two bases in that scenario and one was the original weak base with a SSJ multiplier on top, then Piccolo should have easily out powered a SSJ1 Goku, but if he has one base which is already past SSJ3 and uses SSJ on top of that then it makes sense for Piccolo to be weaker than that SSJ form.

Basically in the two base scenario Piccolo should be stronger than SSJ1 Goku (original base) and Frost.
In the one base scenario Piccolo should be weaker than both Frost and SSJ1 Goku (God base).

Exactly I agree with one base scenario, also all this stuff with boo is simply to deal with:

We know that base goku has improved a lot along with vegeta in base as whis's training was specifically requiring no transformation, so by this we got:

and we know that base goku was at least above ss3 goku's level from bog and we also know Mr.boo would just above ss2 level, but while enraged could be close to fat buu and that the form goku called crazy strong while enraged.

current arc base goku/vegeta ~ ultimate gohan's level
u6 base goku/vegeta - > ss2 gotenks's level, possibly ss3
rof base goku/vegeta ~ > ss gotenks
pre whis training base goku/vegeta ~ > Imperfect Cell ?

I could see it right.

[Chiki]

Piccolo was fighting on the defensive against a weakened Frost. This doesn't change the fact that Frost was way stronger than him when not weakened. How does this translate to Mr. Boo beating Frost? Also, since when did regeneration prevent Mr. Boo from getting knocked out? They don't need to completely destroy Boo because it's not allowed within the rules. All they need to do is knock his ass out of the ring or unconscious.

Boo can try to turn Magetta into chocolate, but that doesn't mean Magetta would allow it to happen. That also shows that Boo really isn't anything special.

This problem is so easily solved. Frost is stronger than Namek Frieza by quite a bit (SPC level or a bit above) because he gets more exercise in his world due to his good guy act. We know, from the anime, that he goes around killing bad guys. So he gets some exercise from that. Cell arc Piccolo was below Cell Junior level iirc, so that would put Piccolo at weaker than SPC. Frost is still below Buu level though, who is between Buu arc SSJ3 and Cell arc SSJ2.

Thus, SSG (Base 2) Goku >> FF RoF Frieza >>>>>>>>>>>> Buu <=> Champa SS Goku > FF Frost > Champa Piccolo > Base Goku

<=> = greater than or less than or equal to. I don't know how strong Champa SS Goku is. He could even be BoG SSJ3 level for all we know.

The two base theory perfectly explains everything.

Basically in the two base scenario Piccolo should be stronger than SSJ1 Goku (original base) and Frost.
In the one base scenario Piccolo should be weaker than both Frost and SSJ1 Goku (God base).

I just want to say I appreciate your posts since you're not a stubborn guy and you're willing to listen to reason unlike some other members on this forum. But you've completely misunderstood the scenario here. According to the two base scenario, Piccolo is quite a bit weaker than SS Champa Goku and a bit weaker than Final Form Frost. Piccolo is quite a bit stronger than Base Goku with no SSG power.