Was the two base/suppressed ki theory finally confirmed?

[Hugo Boss]

That's not a flaw. That's just a tautology, i.e. a statement which is always true (lol so it's the opposite of a flaw.)

For example, A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG. Trivially.

We use trivial tautologies in logic like this quite a lot.

"A non-married bachelor is a bachelor" is a tautology.
"A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG" isn't.

Yes it is. SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form, and it's trivially true that it is also as powerful as SSG. Which one of these do you deny?

1. SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form.
2. SSG is as powerful as SSG. This is a tautology and undeniable.

1 is true because Goku can use the power of SS in SSG to go SSGSS (SSB). So SSG is not a Super Saiyan form because he can go SS in SSG.

SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form and is as powerful as SSG, okay.
But.. what are these justifiers?

1 is true because SSG isn't SS.
2 is true because SSG has the power of SSG.

You are extrapolating the meaning of 1 and 2. The flaw you didn't realize is that none non-SS form will be SSG other than SSG itself.

[TheMikado]

^ but that's pretty much what people have been saying all along. Logically they could/should be a form in between SSJ3 and SSB that has similar power to the SSG form. The fact that that form actually IS the SSG form in the manga is irrelevant. The point of this debate is not that Goku HAS to have a second "base". It has always been that there should be a non SSJ form which also uses God Ki and specifically in the manga that form appears to be invisible and in effect a "2nd base" if it was later revealed that Goku had been using the SSG form throughout Super it's just been invisible. No one in the two base camps power rankings or understanding of the story would change at all because they always assumed that a form similar to that was in use.

The problem with this reasoning is that you can't assume, if Goku is red, he can be orange... If Goku is red, then he can be red. I don't mind if there are people who subscribe to such a theory, but to claim this discourse is flawless is a mistake.

Well your logic is flawed. This is like the difference between red and red where the differ nice is small enough where the function can remain largely the same. this is entirely based on deductive reasoning and the utility of the form. Further it fills the hole which many had identified long before it was revealed. This is not a coincidence. For months many individuals theorized that if Goku to actively infuse his God Ki at will then theoritically it should be possible at all forms including his base. This being furthered by games featuring the Saiyan beyond God as a distinct form.

[Chiki]

SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form and is as powerful as SSG, okay.
But.. what are these justifiers?

1 is true because SSG isn't SS.
2 is true because SSG has the power of SSG.

You are extrapolating the meaning of 1 and 2.

I don't understand what you're saying here tbh. 1 isn't a tautology but is true anyway, 2 is trivially true, so my argument is flawless and it logically follows.

[Hugo Boss]

The problem with this reasoning is that you can't assume, if Goku is red, he can be orange... If Goku is red, then he can be red. I don't mind if there are people who subscribe to such a theory, but to claim this discourse is flawless is a mistake.

Well your logic is flawed. This is like the difference between red and red where the differ nice is small enough where the function can remain largely the same. this is entirely based on deductive reasoning and the utility of the form. Further it fills the hole which many had identified long before it was revealed. This is not a coincidence. For months many individuals theorized that if Goku to actively infuse his God Ki at will then theoritically it should be possible at all forms including his base. This being furthered by games featuring the Saiyan beyond God as a distinct form.

Let's change then. In a nutshell, a lion is a lion is true. A lion is a tiger is false.

I never said it's impossible to infuse god ki in whatever form Goku wants. That's perfectly up to debate. I just have a problem with someone who proclaims himself a bachelor saying any non-SS is a SSG..

SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form and is as powerful as SSG, okay.
But.. what are these justifiers?

1 is true because SSG isn't SS.
2 is true because SSG has the power of SSG.

You are extrapolating the meaning of 1 and 2.

I don't understand what you're saying here tbh. 1 isn't a tautology but is true anyway, 2 is trivially true, so my argument is flawless and it logically follows.

"SSG is not SS" doesn't need to be justified, it makes sense itself. And SSGSS has nothing to do with SSG is this particular example you offered. Therefore, you are looking for justifiers which don't need to be there in the first place.

[Chiki]

saying any non-SS is a SSG..

I never said this. Show me where I used the word "any."

[Hugo Boss]

saying any non-SS is a SSG..

I never said this. Show me where I used the word "any."

[spoiler]

I don't think we need a bachelor's degree to see there is a flaw here. If Goku can turn Super Saiyan God in the manga, this second non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as Super Saiyan God is actually Super Saiyan God itself.

That's not a flaw. That's just a tautology, i.e. a statement which is always true (lol so it's the opposite of a flaw.)

For example, a non-married bachelor is trivially a bachelor. A non-Super Saiyan form as powerful as SSG is SSG. Trivially.

We use trivial tautologies in logic like this quite a lot.

[/spoiler]

"A Non-SS as powerful as SSG is SSG" is the same as "any Non-SS as powerful as SSG is SSG".

You can have a Non-SS as powerful as SSG which isn't SSG. It can be even "Saiyan Beyond God" Goku. SBG isn't SSG.

The point of this discussion is that the existance of SSG in the manga doesn't prove the existence of SBG. It doesn't prove that SBG isn't a thing either.

[TheMikado]

The problem with this reasoning is that you can't assume, if Goku is red, he can be orange... If Goku is red, then he can be red. I don't mind if there are people who subscribe to such a theory, but to claim this discourse is flawless is a mistake.

Well your logic is flawed. This is like the difference between red and red where the differ nice is small enough where the function can remain largely the same. this is entirely based on deductive reasoning and the utility of the form. Further it fills the hole which many had identified long before it was revealed. This is not a coincidence. For months many individuals theorized that if Goku to actively infuse his God Ki at will then theoritically it should be possible at all forms including his base. This being furthered by games featuring the Saiyan beyond God as a distinct form.

Let's change then. In a nutshell, a lion is a lion is true. A lion is a tiger is false.

I never said it's impossible to infuse god ki in whatever form Goku wants. That's perfectly up to debate. I just have a problem with someone who proclaims himself a bachelor saying any non-SS is a SSG..

SSG is a non-Super Saiyan form and is as powerful as SSG, okay.
But.. what are these justifiers?

I'm not going to comment on any of the other bachelor debate going on, but an Asian Elephant and an African elephant are still elephants because they both fit the definition.

If the problem is just that people are calling it two base or 2nd base or whatever then forget the title. They point that everyone who subscribes to this is that Goku should have the ability to turn on or off his Goku Ki in whatever form he wants? If you think that is a possibility then by all accounts you believe that it would be a possibility that there is a time where Goku could be weak in his base form and then in moment, infuse his God Ki and be God level. Regardless of what that form is or what it looks like, the possibility based on its utility would be the same regardless of title or appearance which would be a non SSJ form with God Ki. From what you've said it sounds like you believe there's a possibility of them having that, whether it's SSG or something else is possible correct?

[Chiki]

As someone who studies semantics (and does research in it) I can tell you for a fact that "a" does not usually mean "any." It does in some contexts, but not in this one. To a native English speaker, it would mean "some" in the context in which I used it. I think the problem here is that English is not your native language.

"a" usually means at least one. So what I meant was, there is at least one non SS form which is as powerful as SSG.

Sometimes, "a" can mean any. For example, "a man must not slap his wife." That would not work if "a" meant "at least one" there. Why? It would imply that there is only one particular man who should not slap his wife. But intuitively, the sentence means that no man should slap his wife. That doesn't work.

Now, suppose I meant any non SS form is SSG. Then it would follow that every single person who isn't a Super Saiyan is SSG. So Mr. Briefs is more powerful than Gotenks. Ok then. No, that's not what I meant.

There is at least one non-SS form which is as powerful as SSG. Trivially, that is SSG. So my argument follows.

[Hugo Boss]

If the problem is just that people are calling it two base or 2nd base or whatever then forget the title. They point that everyone who subscribes to this is that Goku should have the ability to turn on or off his Goku Ki in whatever form he wants? If you think that is a possibility then by all accounts you believe that it would be a possibility that there is a time where Goku could be weak in his base form and then in moment, infuse his God Ki and be God level. Regardless of what that form is or what it looks like, the possibility based on its utility would be the same regardless of title or appearance which would be a non SSJ form with God Ki. From what you've said it sounds like you believe there's a possibility of them having that, whether it's SSG or something else is possible correct?

I think it's totally possible that Goku maaaay have a Saiyan Beyond God form. But the fact that Goku can become SSG at will doesn't automatically confirm/deny it. It just confirms Goku can become a SSG if he wishes so, at least in Toyotaro's perspective.

As someone who studies semantics (and does research in it) I can tell you for a fact that "a" does not usually mean "any." It does in some contexts, but not in this one. To a native English speaker, it would mean "some" in the context in which I used it. I think the problem here is that English is not your native language.

"a" usually means at least one. So what I meant was, there is at least one non SS form which is as powerful as SSG.

Sometimes, "a" can mean any. For example, "a man must not slap his wife." That would not work if "a" meant "at least one" there. Why? It would imply that there is only one particular man who should not slap his wife. But intuitively, the sentence means that no man should slap his wife. That doesn't work.

Now, suppose I meant any non SS form is SSG. Then it would follow that every single person who isn't a Super Saiyan is SSG. So Mr. Briefs is more powerful than Gotenks. Ok then. No, that's not what I meant.

There is at least one non-SS form which is as powerful as SSG. Trivially, that is SSG. So my argument follows.

Okay, Chiki. Now I get it.

I'm not a native English speaker. In my language (Portuguese), "a" can be translated to "um/uma", which is a indefinite pronoun, but its meaning has no space for "at least one" in my culture. For example, "a feline is a lion" is false, in order to make it correct, it has to be "at least one feline is a lion" or "a lion is a feline". Usually, I don't see a problem with saying "a feline can be a lion", because it can be interpreted as such. So, I apologize for the confusion.

[TheMikado]

I think it's totally possible that Goku maaaay have a Saiyan Beyond God form. But the fact that Goku can become SSG at will doesn't automatically confirm/deny it. It just confirms Goku can become a SSG if he wishes so, at least in Toyotaro's perspective.

I'm not saying it does either. I'm saying there exist a concept called "Saiyan beyond God" which is essentially what the two base theory actually is, one is total base, the other being an invisible form of Saiyan beyond God. SSG would be the counterpart to that form in terms of both utility and power placement. All the two base theory is stating is that Saiyan beyond God as an actually form seperate from Gokus base is also a plausible explanation for seeming power fluctuations. It's just an alternative theory based on known existing mechanics within the series.

As I've stated myself I'm not sold on it as I just think the anime gaffed big time and the SSG form is still supposed to exist and be in use. But I also wouldn't be upset if either scenario were true outside of what I would personally perceive to be poor writing.

[Faisal Shourov]

I find it hilarious that people are wasting their time debating something which the lazy writer of the show didn't even bother to explain. Super has been a trainwreck so far

[Chiki]

I find it hilarious that people are wasting their time debating something which the lazy writer of the show didn't even bother to explain. Super has been a trainwreck so far

Whining about Super doesn't make you look cool or smart.

The power levels in the manga make perfect sense.

[Krillin1994]

Two Base theory is what Anime/Manga Series seem to do now.

Naruto had regular chakra and Sage modes. (my knowledge of Naruto is limited)

One Piece has Haki - Luffy can still use Gear 2/3 without Haki. But he can do a Haki base punch which seems to be stronger than a non haki gear 2 punch (Just like Goku god base is stronger than his Super Saiyan forms). Luffy can use Haki in conjunction with his gears which makes him much stronger and we see a visual difference. (Super Saiyan Blue).

In these shows they can fight without using these things if they don't need to. It's a case of turning them on and off.


I find it odd to think that God Ki has caused an irreversible change in them. were it just Goku it may be plausible due to the ritual. But since Vegeta just trained then there's no logical way for it to be just the one base.

[MCDaveG]

I honestly believe, that even the writers of the show don't think about stuff like that when writing...
Just a fan thing.

[Chiki]

I honestly believe, that even the writers of the show don't think about stuff like that when writing...
Just a fan thing.

Well the manga has it, so why not?

[MCDaveG]

I honestly believe, that even the writers of the show don't think about stuff like that when writing...
Just a fan thing.

Well the manga has it, so why not?

I really can't imagine them thinking about things like this, maybe I do underestimate them, but after 50 episode run of Super, my idea about the writing is:
''now it's like this, stronger guy comes, have to raise a tension bit so we will have stuff for another 20 episodes, Goku will fight in base kaioken and say that he can't use this technique, because whatever.''
''Oh, crap, Toriyama's story draft denied that whatever thing from 5 episodes before, never mind, let's use the draft as it is, add this and some comedy and yeaaah, done''
''we can't animate long fights now, let's add Pilaf and co.''

I doubt that they have some character traits charts or deep knowledge of the series.

[Faisal Shourov]

Whining about Super doesn't make you look cool or smart.

The power levels in the manga make perfect sense.

Why would I whine about it? I am openly trashing it. I don't expect it to improve.

[Chiki]

Whining about Super doesn't make you look cool or smart.

The power levels in the manga make perfect sense.

Why would I whine about it? I am openly trashing it. I don't expect it to improve.

Why can't openly trashing Super be whining too? You're just whiny.

This arc is incredible, probably the best arc of the entire DB series yet. And the power levels make perfect sense in the manga. Nothing has to be explained.