Non-thread-worthy discussions

[ABED]

The lead character 180 that the Buu arc gives us and the ensuing Kid Buu battle are pretty forced and inorganic, but at the same time, it feels like Goku and Vegeta are taking it upon themselves to put away the monster they're responsible for letting out, which makes me more appreciate the direction that arc took.

Vegeta more than Goku is responsible for Buu.

Vegeta is more responsible, but only a bit. Goku went right along with it, instead of ending it right there with 3.

Only if you don't take into account the massive retcon concerning Super Saiyan 3. I don't buy for a single second that Goku would agree to fight Vegeta knowing what would happen. Why would Goku hold back so much? He gains nothing from that fight. He loves to test himself and if Toriyama (and Goku by extension) knows Goku can turn Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta wouldn't be a challenge. More than that, when has Goku ever let someone reach full power or be activated without the intention of fighting them? It's completely out of character.

[ekrolo2]

Only if you don't take into account the massive retcon concerning Super Saiyan 3.

That it probably didn't exist when Toriyama wrote their fight?

[ABED]

Only if you don't take into account the massive retcon concerning Super Saiyan 3.

That it probably didn't exist when Toriyama wrote their fight?

Which is my thought. In that case, I don't blame Goku.

[ekrolo2]

Only if you don't take into account the massive retcon concerning Super Saiyan 3.

That it probably didn't exist when Toriyama wrote their fight?

Which is my thought. In that case, I don't blame Goku.

A fair point but in-universe he doesn't really have an excuse. Personally, Toriyama could've just written Goku as holding back if he felt the need to invent a new form just to make sense of how Fat Boo doesn't just stomp Goku like he did Vegeta.

[ABED]

But in universe, you can't reconcile it. It's inconsistent plot wise and character wise. Why would he agree to fight Vegeta if he's not a challenge for him?

[Zephyr]

Regardless of what existed in Toriyama's mind at what time, the form's in-universe existence retroactively renders Goku a major contributor to Buu's revival.

And, at least in context to the actual point I was making, Super Saiyan 3 and Goku's now-confusing lack of using it to put Vegeta in the corner makes the Kid Buu fight leave less of a sour taste in my mouth than I think most people argue that it should. Goku and Vegeta woke it up, Goku and Vegeta put it to bed.

Another interesting bit, is that the 180 from Gohan back to Goku is also lauded as a missed opportunity to pass the torch. However, Goku being reckless sort of solves that as well. He and Vegeta woke it up, put it to bed, and then Goku ensures that it will be his new successor, in favor of the slacker and romance-interested Gohan. "This life's not for you Gohan? Don't worry son, I'll pick someone else: this monster that I helped let out!"

Almost makes the Buu arc into "Gohan shirked his responsibility as Earth's protector, allowing Goku to unleash a monster, come back to life, and establish said monster as his true successor". Which I can't complain about, because that sounds like a pretty Toriyama thing to do, in hindsight.

[ABED]

Regardless of what existed in Toriyama's mind at what time, the form's in-universe existence retroactively renders Goku a major contributor to Buu's revival.

And, at least in context to the actual point I was making, Super Saiyan 3 and Goku's now-confusing lack of using it to put Vegeta in the corner makes the Kid Buu fight leave less of a sour taste in my mouth than I think most people argue that it should. Goku and Vegeta woke it up, Goku and Vegeta put it to bed.

I can't use the in universe explanation because it's at odds with previous characterization and story. The story works just as well if Vegeta is important in stopping Kid Buu. Giving Goku culpability doesn't make it any better.

[ekrolo2]

But in universe, you can't reconcile it. It's inconsistent plot wise and character wise. Why would he agree to fight Vegeta if he's not a challenge for him?

Doesn't Goku hold back to spare Vegeta's pride or is that a dub-only thing? If that's in the manga, him holding back as a stronger SS2 would be no different than him holding back as a 3.

[ABED]

But in universe, you can't reconcile it. It's inconsistent plot wise and character wise. Why would he agree to fight Vegeta if he's not a challenge for him?

Doesn't Goku hold back to spare Vegeta's pride or is that a dub-only thing? If that's in the manga, him holding back as a stronger SS2 would be no different than him holding back as a 3.

But that's not Goku. When has he held back to spare someone's pride? He's held back to stop himself from injuring someone or to pace himself.

[Anime Kitten]

Does it bug anyone else when the characters say what literally just happened? For instance, after someone hits someone in the face, the camera will cut to another character who will say "He punched him in the face!"

I haven't noticed much of that in Dragon Ball, but in stuff like Pokémon, it's NONSTOP.

[ekrolo2]

Does it bug anyone else when the characters say what literally just happened? For instance, after someone hits someone in the face, the camera will cut to another character who will say "He punched him in the face!"

I haven't noticed much of that in Dragon Ball, but in stuff like Pokémon, it's NONSTOP.

Naruto is bar none the worst example of this, bar effing none

[rereboy]

But in universe, you can't reconcile it. It's inconsistent plot wise and character wise. Why would he agree to fight Vegeta if he's not a challenge for him?

Goku clearly stated that in the otherworld there was no one at his level to fuse with. That means that Majin Vegeta is a superior adversary to anyone he has fought for the last 7 years, and he's a pretty big challenge for Goku's SSJ2 power. This all means that Vegeta is a pretty attractive fight for Goku. The most attractive fight he's had for years and the most powerful adversary he had ever fought, since by then Vegeta surpassed Cell. And using SSJ3 right away would cut that fight short, besides not being practical due to using up Goku's time on Earth.

[ABED]

It's not an attractive fight because he's holding back! Vegeta is also not on his level. He lives to test himself and push himself further, fighting while holding back isn't interesting to him and there was ZERO indication that he was just taking Vegeta up on his offer to fight. He was upset and earnestly thought the best way to stop Vegeta from taking anymore lives was to fight him. He didn't do it for kicks.

[ShadowBardock89]

Why was Raditz not shown/spoken of in the original version of Bardock: The Father of Goku, but Nappa is and just the opposite in Dragon Ball Minus?

[ABED]

Why was Raditz not shown/spoken of in the original version of Bardock: The Father of Goku, but Nappa is and just the opposite in Dragon Ball Minus?

It would've been cool seeing Raditz and Bardock watching Goku's fight against Kid Buu on that giant orb in Hell.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Goku, Gohan and Goten are the only characters in Dragon Ball (manga, not sure about the animated media) that have surnames.

[rereboy]

It's not an attractive fight because he's holding back!

It's not the most attractive fight ever for him, but it's the most attractive fight he has faced in 7 years.

You are assuming that Goku isn't interested in fighting if he has the advantage which is simply not true. Goku loved fighting Krillin in the 22nd tournament and Tenshinhan in the 23rd tournament despite having the advantage because they were awesome fighters and it had been years since Goku had such awesome opponents.

Goku might get even more excited when the opponent might be too great for him, but he loves fighting in general and he always loves fighting awesome fighters.

[ABED]

It's not an attractive fight because he's holding back!

It's not the most attractive fight ever for him, but it's the most attractive fight he has faced in 7 years.

You are assuming that Goku isn't interested in fighting if he has the advantage which is simply not true. Goku loved fighting Krillin in the 22nd tournament and Tenshinhan in the 23rd tournament despite having the advantage because they were awesome fighters and it had been years since Goku had such awesome opponents.

Goku might get even more excited when the opponent might be too great for him, but he loves fighting in general and he always loves fighting awesome fighters.

Goku loved fighting his friends, but Vegeta isn't his friend, and this isn't a slight advantage we're talking about, this is an advantage the size of the San Andreas. Watch the episodes again and you will see he's not super excited at the prospect of fighting Majin Vegeta. He agrees to fight because he's angry at all the death and destruction.

Anyway, there's a filler episode where he's training for the 23rd Budokai and he goes fishing. The narration at the end says something like, "This day, Goku laughed the most in the three years of his training." It's the little touches like this that I really enjoy.

[rereboy]

It's not an attractive fight because he's holding back!

It's not the most attractive fight ever for him, but it's the most attractive fight he has faced in 7 years.

You are assuming that Goku isn't interested in fighting if he has the advantage which is simply not true. Goku loved fighting Krillin in the 22nd tournament and Tenshinhan in the 23rd tournament despite having the advantage because they were awesome fighters and it had been years since Goku had such awesome opponents.

Goku might get even more excited when the opponent might be too great for him, but he loves fighting in general and he always loves fighting awesome fighters.

Goku loved fighting his friends, but Vegeta isn't his friend, and this isn't a slight advantage we're talking about, this is an advantage the size of the San Andreas. Watch the episodes again, he's not super excited at the prospect of fighting Majin Vegeta. He agrees to fight because he's angry.

He didn't love fighting them because they were his friends, he loved fighting them because they were awesome fighters. Bulma is Goku's friend and he wouldn't enjoy fighting her because she is not an awesome fighter at all.

In both cases Goku had a whole another level of power (or two) that he only used in the final match.

Goku's love for fighting is always stronger than any anger he may have, as it's consistenty shown, and regarding majin Vegeta, we see Goku smiling as he fights with him in the manga, showing just that.

[ABED]

He didn't love fighting them because they were his friends, he loved fighting them because they were awesome fighters. Bulma is Goku's friend and he wouldn't enjoy fighting her because she is not an awesome fighter at all.

It was implied and you had to know that I didn't mean it applied to every one of his friends. Of course he wouldn't love fighting a friend who can't fight, but he would enjoy fighting Yamcha in a friendly fight. Kuririn was a great fighter, but not compared to Goku.

Goku's love for fighting is always stronger than any anger he may have, as it's consistenty shown.

There was ZERO love of fighting in that battle. It was personal. You are putting a square peg in a round hole. We're shown flat out that Goku is fighting him because he's upset. Goku is upfront about his reasons, but he lies to Piccolo? He only lied because of a retcon. It's inconsistent with what we know of Goku.