Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Cure Dragon 255]

OH But Yamcha CERTAINLY HAS REASON to dislike Piccolo/Kami.

Headbutt to the groin anyone?

[eledoremassis02]

Does anyone who has the VIZ manga boxsets for DB and Z let me know how long they are sitting side by side? I'm looking at buying them but want to make sure I have space for them. Thank you!

[Hellspawn28]

I always wish Trunks was in DBZ Movie 6. I would love to see Coola’s reaction when Trunks tells him that he’s the one that killed his brother and dad.

[Noah]

I wonder if they will debut Super Saiyan in Daima the same way did it in GT (as it could be a reference).

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Random Westwood dub thought of the day : in episode 112 (or 127 uncut) A Handy Trick during the first encounter with Dr Gero (pronounced Jar-Oh here) when Tenshinhan says "How did you know his name was Goku?" emphasis is placed on the "Ooh" at the end, and again later in the episode before Dr Gero explains how Goku was being spied on and the creation of the artificial humans. For all its faults this is one thing that dub sometimes gets right (emphasis on "sometimes" as pronunciations vary throughout the run).

[GhostEmperorX]

You know, considering that Z movies 1 and 2 were still using the OP re-arrangement motif of the original Dragon Ball series (even though it can't be used in the Z series proper) as well as their general vibe, I wonder if the Toei staff was essentially just stalling so they could rehash the Saiyan plotline later on in subsequent movies (not that it panned out this way besides Movie 3).
Especially since it's what kicked off the Z series to begin with.

[MasenkoHA]

You know, considering that Z movies 1 and 2 were still using the OP re-arrangement motif of the original Dragon Ball series (even though it can't be used in the Z series proper) as well as their general vibe, I wonder if the Toei staff was essentially just stalling so they could rehash the Saiyan plotline later on in subsequent movies (not that it panned out this way besides Movie 3).
Especially since it's what kicked off the Z series to begin with.

Eh movie 2 makes it clear the Saiyan conflict happened (Goku has his Kaio gi and uses Kaioken and Spirit Ball, Gohan remembers Piccolo sacrificing himself for him) so I don't know if they could have really remade the Saiyan arc other than "a different but similar conflict" execution in Movie 3

On that note I know Movie 1 came out between episode 11 and 12 but production wise I would assume it went into production around the same time as Z the tv series went into production? I wonder if Shunsuke Kikuchi composed his score for the movie or the Saiyan arc (and thus all the Head Cha La variants) first?

[Rafa Fast]

You know, considering that Z movies 1 and 2 were still using the OP re-arrangement motif of the original Dragon Ball series (even though it can't be used in the Z series proper)

Z episode 8 used this track and Episode 38 used this track (They also used this in a episode from the Cell arc but can't remember which one now). Unless you're talking about new tracks based on the song being made for the TV series, then it's true.

as well as their general vibe, I wonder if the Toei staff was essentially just stalling so they could rehash the Saiyan plotline later on in subsequent movies (not that it panned out this way besides Movie 3).
Especially since it's what kicked off the Z series to begin with.

Eh movie 2 makes it clear the Saiyan conflict happened (Goku has his Kaio gi and uses Kaioken and Spirit Ball, Gohan remembers Piccolo sacrificing himself for him) so I don't know if they could have really remade the Saiyan arc other than "a different but similar conflict" execution in Movie 3

The first two surely feel a lot like DB and there are references to it on them (Garlic Jr. talking about the 23rd Tenakichi Budokai, the use of the Nyoibo in both, Bulma & Roshi's designs in 2, etc), but I don't think it is because they tried to save the Saiyajin plotline for the future movies, in the First one they were simply following the pattern of the 3 DB movies
it was in 1990 were they started the two movies per year and "this movie takes place after the arc ended, even when it's still not finished" thing, they had to rehash some ideias of the most recent events of the TV series at the moment + think in something original for the movie.

Movie 3 used the Saiyan plotline because it was what they had at the time to use as inspiration, the movie is actually meant to be a "retelling" of the Early Namek arc, but due to the pre-Ginyu stuff not having much new content for them to use, they had to borrow a bit from the Saiyajin Saga again, as they already did in Movie 2, but that one was more "fairly" done because the Movie came out after the Saiyajin Saga already ended so they could make a full parallel of it (same thing as Movie 5 with Freeza Saga and Movie 9 with Cell Saga), yet you have a Saiyan plotfine being brought up right before the pre-climax of the Cell arc.

The last 4 movies surely went through some trouble tho, due to the pre-Majin Vegeta part of the Boo Saga having little stuff happening, they had to make two Movies about Broly, and even though 12 and 13 have strong inspirations on the Fat / Super Boo and Fusion saga bits, they try to be very original when you compare them to the first 9, there's literally no Movie that uses the plotline of the Boo Saga, Saiyajin had Movie 3, after it ended but it did, Freeza had Movie 5 and Androids/Cell had Movie 7, there's literally nothing in the last 4 that has any sort of relation with Boo, Babidi or anything from that saga, you have the Metamoru fusion and Goku mentioning Boo at best and that's it.

On that note I know Movie 1 came out between episode 11 and 12 but production wise I would assume it went into production around the same time as Z the tv series went into production? I wonder if Shunsuke Kikuchi composed his score for the movie or the Saiyan arc (and thus all the Head Cha La variants) first?

The Score for Movie 1 was made after the Saiyajin saga one, the score production code number speaks for itself, Movie 1 is M800 and Saiyajin Saga is M700.
And well, if Movie 1 was made around the same time as the first episodes, then they must've borrowed content from the first 7 episodes during their production, as the movie is inspired by the Raditz arc, but I personally think the first Z episodes were already close to being finished when DB was ending its run, and production for Movie 1 started when Z episode 1 premiered, but that's me.
It's weird how the animation for ZENKAI POWER in the credits for that movie looks like "unfinished" though.

[GhostEmperorX]

Unless you're talking about new tracks based on the song being made for the TV series, then it's true.

Yea, I meant the variations in the M-8xx and M-9xx packs that were made for Movies 1 & 2 (and never left them).
Bit of a shame too since the Goku-Piccolo theme combination didn't seem to be done again.

[Rafa Fast]

To be fair I think it would be really weird to get new tracks based on Makafushigi Adventure in the eame score that is meant to give the spotlight to the whole new Chala head chala, it would be like making new tracks based on the latter but for the M1700 score, I don't think there's any mystery behind it, I think Kikuchi just really liked to use Makafushigi Adventure as a theme for Goku so he kept using it until Z Movie 2, he decided to make a whole new original theme for Goku in Movie 3 and in Movies 4-9/12-13 that isn't based on Chala Head Chala, maybe he just didn't liked the song very much, so the theme never left the M700 score (same with We Gotta Power)

M814A was used in the 2008 OVA though but I know you don't count it.

[GhostEmperorX]

To be fair I think it would be really weird to get new tracks based on Makafushigi Adventure in the eame score that is meant to give the spotlight to the whole new Chala head chala, it would be like making new tracks based on the latter but for the M1700 score, I don't think there's any mystery behind it, I think Kikuchi just really liked to use Makafushigi Adventure as a theme for Goku so he kept using it until Z Movie 2, he decided to make a whole new original theme for Goku in Movie 3 and in Movies 4-9/12-13 that isn't based on Chala Head Chala, maybe he just didn't liked the song very much, so the theme never left the M700 score (same with We Gotta Power)

Which is precisely why they couldn't even be used in that series, problem being that it was beginning to heavily rely on using movie material in lieu of TV scores (as opposed to the previous program) and it ruled the tracks out by virtue of that fact alone.

Actually the 2nd theme he made right after Movie 3 lasted from 4-6 and wasn't really all that present in 7, and the 3rd was introduced in Movie 8 (M1525/7/9) and stuck through for every movie after where there was a Goku theme variation (really only movies 12 and 13, 9-11 didn't have any probably due to Goku's lack of significant presence).

Far as Cha-La HEAD-Cha-La, it could also be the case that it changes keys too many times for him to have used it as a motif. He already split it into verse and chorus sections for his re-arrangements of the tracks to keep it within the chromatic range that he wanted.
(If there's any song he may not have liked, it's probably ZENKAI Power since it got no re-arrangements as such :p)
Also, the fact that both OP re-arrangement sets (and also ED for M17xx) didn't leave the TV series score is honestly a good indicator of the split convention that Z had.

[Rafa Fast]

Well, I guess it would've been really hard for Kikuchi to make 3 scores per year, the best we had was 1993 with his scores for Movies 8, 9 and the Great Saiyaman saga Score, and you saw how the the latter ended up being like, it's way too simple when you compare it to the previous TV Scores, it's entirely made of We Gotta Power and We Were Angels variations plus 3 tracks with Movie 9 Gohan's Theme, and nothing more, I think they dedided to ditch new TV scores for the best.

(I know Goku's theme changes in Movie 8 but I personally consider it the same as his theme from Movies 4-7, I hear the former as a evolution of the latter, they're very similar to each other, and I personlly think it is present in Movie 9, I can hear the same variant from M1528 in the second half of M1623, but that's my interpretation of it.)

On the other hand, while CHA-LA HEAD CHA-LA and We Gotta Power & Were Angels couldn't get new variations in the movies, Gohan's Movie 9 theme was the only theme from the movies to appear in a TV score :v

[GhostEmperorX]

Well, I guess it would've been really hard for Kikuchi to make 3 scores per year, the best we had was 1993 with his scores for Movies 8, 9 and the Great Saiyaman saga Score, and you saw how the the latter ended up being like, it's way too simple when you compare it to the previous TV Scores, it's entirely made of We Gotta Power and We Were Angels variations plus 3 tracks with Movie 9 Gohan's Theme, and nothing more, I think they dedided to ditch new TV scores for the best.

Speaking of those, one has to wonder how he made action-type and foreboding variations for the two (M1702 & 1708) before things actually shifted into high gear later on (World Tournament & all). Perhaps it was a just in case kind of thing? Because I doubt stuff like that would have been used in Great Saiyaman Saga situations.

[Rafa Fast]

Speaking of those, one has to wonder how he made action-type and foreboding variations for the two (M1702 & 1708) before things actually shifted into high gear later on (World Tournament & all). Perhaps it was a just in case kind of thing? Because I doubt stuff like that would have been used in Great Saiyaman Saga situations.

Just doing as many different variations on the same themes as possible, he probably knew he wouldn't be composing another TV score for the series, so he made a lot of tracks based on Power & Angels before returning to the movies.

I once thought that he actually composed a few tracks for the TV scores in different periods of the TV series, given how the M300 score debuts in the Karin Land section of the RR saga but the score includes tracks based on the Uranai Baba episodes, but that is probably because all the episodes for that part of the series were already in production before Kikuchi even started working in the score for it, the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai was already happening in the manga before the anime introduced the Karin Land.

[The Monkey King]

Just re-read MUI Goku vs Moro.

In terms of narrative substance it's easily one of the worst fights in the history of the franchise. Goku acts so insanely, blindingly stupid it actually hurts to read, he spends 20 pages not killing Moro... for no real reason at all and almost threw the whole fight and doomed everyone.

Absolutely betrays all of Goku's character growth throughout the entirety of the original manga. Beerus and Whis have to give Goku the most obvious advice like "Goku, my angelic wisdom tells me maybe you should kill the planet eating Goat-man Cell 2.0" and Goku replies like a slack jawed moron "Uuuuuuh Okay I guess". Remember when Goku had a brain and was screaming at Gohan to kill Cell? Well Toyotarou sure didn't

Between that and the absolutely awful Granolah arc I have zero faith in Toyo as a writer, I hope the DBS manga hiatus turns into a cancellation, he simply cannot write a good story to save his life.

[SupremeKai25]

Just re-read MUI Goku vs Moro.

In terms of narrative substance it's easily one of the worst fights in the history of the franchise. Goku acts so insanely, blindingly stupid it actually hurts to read, he spends 20 pages not killing Moro... for no real reason at all and almost threw the whole fight and doomed everyone.

Absolutely betrays all of Goku's character growth throughout the entirety of the original manga. Beerus and Whis have to give Goku the most obvious advice like "Goku, my angelic wisdom tells me maybe you should kill the planet eating Goat-man Cell 2.0" and Goku replies like a slack jawed moron "Uuuuuuh Okay I guess". Remember when Goku had a brain and was screaming at Gohan to kill Cell? Well Toyotarou sure didn't

Between that and the absolutely awful Granolah arc I have zero faith in Toyo as a writer, I hope the DBS manga hiatus turns into a cancellation, he simply cannot write a good story to save his life.

That entire arc was so strange, I'm not even sure what was the point of that arc? Moro is dead and will never return, no one really cares about Merus, and Goku come the Granolah arc is still a noob when it comes to UI.

I'm almost tempted to call that entire arc "filler", if it wasn't for that very brief Uub cameo that sets up Uub as a power-house for the EoZ.