Lord Beerus wrote:Tectorman wrote:How so? In BoG, Goku gets up to a 6, where Beerus ultimately topped out at 7. In RoF, we have SSB above that 6 and Golden Frieza above that SSB, but still plenty of room in between 6 and 10 for those two unstated figures to fit in.
Super tells the same story to that point. Then they train for the U6 tournament, and Vegeta predicts at the beginning of the three-year training period beforehand that they will likely not make any significant gains. So they are only marginally stronger than their RoF selves (not counting manga Goku's limited ability to switch between SSG and SSB, or anime Goku's Kaioken, for the reason that they are not shared across both tellings). And of all the enemies they face, only Hit was comparable to SSB. So as of the U6 arc, they're still within the 6-10 range Toriyama originally had.
Then the Zamasu arc happens. Sans fusion characters, the only two instances of a character being at or above SSB are Goku Black when he first fights Vegeta and SSRose. Higher up than SSB but still conceivable inside the afore-mentioned 6-10 range. Then we have Atsushi Kido's statement (regarding the anime) that, except for Beerus, the various angels and other celestial beings, and fused characters, Goku Black was the most powerful. We likewise have manga Supreme Kai's speculation that Vegetto Blue (and by inference, no other characters seen before) had surpassed Beerus.
And considering that the gap between SSB and those other more powerful characters didn't look unbridgeable (SSB beating back MZ's blast and knocking out his halo, Vegeta fighting evenly with Black after the HTC), it looks to me like we're getting towards the end of Toriyama's "no plans to surpass Beerus" statement applying. It still does presently, but it probably won't by the end of this next arc.
TLDR: Who says the 6-10-15 range is gone? Everything I've seen still fits just fine.
There's no way you can convinces me that Goku and Vegeta, after training with Whis several times and training for 3 years in ROSAT, that within the 6-10-15 they didn't reach a 7 or an 8 on that scale at the very least. Because they sure as hell must have. Unless they made little to no gains in strength since Ressurection F.
Strength gains of the series that I saw:
Goku gets the god ritual in BoG
Vegeta gets training from Whis
For both of them, this culminates in SSB for both. Large gain.
Post RoF, they train in the HTC for three years, Vegeta progressing almost as far as Goku (since the Copy-Water arc later has them matching) in equivalent forms. At the start, Vegeta had predicted little gains, which begs the question: can they train for three whole years while nevertheless not making significant gains? Considering that's what I think happened way back in the Android arc (I don't consider there to be much significant difference between Yardrat Goku and Androids Goku), I must call that plausible. Yes, manga Goku also develops the ability to switch from SSG to SSB, and anime Goku figures out how to reapply the Kaioken. But since the manga doesn't show that to be a straight up strength gain, I consider the benefit of the anime's Kaioken to be similarly downplayed, regardless of what numbers are shown. Small gain.
Post U6, Vegeta makes some slight improvement bringing him to match Goku. Small gain.
Midway through the Zamasu arc, Goku learns the Mafuba (not a strength gain), and Vegeta gets stronger in the HTC. The manga shows him getting the best of Goku Black not through being stronger, but by superior stamina control through the use of SSG. As Kido's interview plainly states the order to be "Beerus-Goku Black-everyone else", I must hesitate to outright accept anime Vegeta dominating Goku Black through outright power and instead consider another explanation (superior technique, better mastery of SSB compared to Black's SSR even though SSR is still stronger, greater drive, some damned thing). Small gain, but I do think that now we are getting towards the top of the 6-10 range. I also think we're getting towards the end of Goku and/or Vegeta not having surpassed Beerus.
Lord Beerus wrote:The events of Future Trunks arc in the both the manga and anime completely shatter that 6-10-15 scale. But it's one event in particular that throws an almighty spanner in the works to everything about it: Vegeta's ROSAT shenanigans. Vegeta gained a huge power up after training in the ROSAT. And in the process had become stronger than SSJR Goku Black, who had previously kicked SSJB Vegeta's ass. Then you take into the fact that he fused with Goku to become Vegetto. And then on top of that, Vegetto transform into SSJB. Not only should they be stronger than Beerus in that scale, but they should be stronger than Whis. There's no way in hell that within the algorithm of the 6-10-15 power hierarchy that 8> + 8> = <15. That's fucking crazy.
As I said above, Vegeta was not stronger than Goku Black in the manga, despite how he eventually humiliated the guy. Ergo, humiliating beatdown does not auto-equate to being stronger. And if that's the case in the manga, I think it must at least be considered true in the anime, too. And since Kido's interview is for the anime, that for me seals the deal. Vegeta, anime and manga, did not get stronger than SSR, beatdown be damned.
Did Vegetto break out of the 6-10 range? Oh, I have no problem seeing him above Beerus. Or with seeing him above Whis. But him breaking out isn't Vegeta and Goku breaking out, and I don't see them above the 10 yet.
Lord Beerus wrote:I can't buy the idea that Goku and Vegeta, after how much stronger they get in the anime and the manga, that they're still not stronger than Beerus within the 6-10-15. Especially after Goku's spectacular Kaioken x10 feat against Hit, and Vegeta, Future Trunks and Goku overpowering Merged Zamasu in beam struggles. I can't believe any of that for the second. That statement from Atsushi Kido makes no sense with what we see in Super. Especially the anime where the battle powers fluctuate like mad from Episodes 57 to 66. And that's not even taking into consideration what Future Trunks was able to do on his own against Goku Black and Zamasu.
Oh, I'll agree that Trunks makes little sense. I'm still trying to figure out what to make of that False SSB thing he had. But for the rest, I just don't see their gains as having been all that great.
The only thing that, on the surface anyway, calls for losing the 6-10-15 scale is the Kaioken x10. But since it doesn't even exist in the manga, I'm hesitant to start reassigning power levels across the franchise because of its existence. That's why I only consider it to be a marginal improvement of his overall power, regardless of what numbers were given.
[spoiler]I could go further in depth if you'd like, but the core idea is this:
SSB = God Ki + Mortal Ki
SSBKKx10 = God Ki + 10x Mortal Ki
And since the God Ki is so much greater than the Mortal Ki, the Mortal Ki, even multiplied by 10, only results in a minor difference. Like 12% or so between the two. Enough to make a difference, as shown with Vegeta vs Kaiox2 Goku back in the Saiyan Saga, but not an unbridgeable, staggering power gap. Which I believe even matches what we're shown, in that Hit doesn't have substantially less durability against SSBKKx10 than what he had against mere SSB (which is important since his Time Skip has nothing to do with his durability, and we know anime Hit never changed how powerful he has, outside of improving the Time Skip, which does not change his durability).[/spoiler]
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!