Forms that should have never been created

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Some give it a free pass since its longtime significance is so baked-in, but the lack of consistent distinction with Super Saiyan 2 has only led to bickering over whether it's being used or everyone wondering why it's not being used when the situation clearly calls for it. When it's obvious someone is a mere SS1, scenes like post-SSG Goku going Super Saiyan against Beerus just kind of lose the significance they would have had otherwise if there's a more powerful form with no confirmed stamina loss that could be used but isn't. (Seriously, is there a single confirmed disadvantage aside from the fact that Goku might feel more comfortable in SS1 since he's used it more?)

Similarly, should Ultimate Gohan have ever been created? When the only way to even begin to distinguish it is to look for a bang that's not usually where it's supposed to be?

[ekrolo2]

All of them minus 1 and 4.

[Doctor.]

All of them besides Oozaru, Gohan's ultimate, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé.

Super Saiyan 2 became useless story-wise once it became a form everyone can have and the ultimate state fills the position of Gohan's hidden potential way better anyway. Super Saiyan 3 looks cool and I like the drawbacks, but I don't feel like it's necessary, just give SS (or SS2 if you keep it) the same drawback. SS4 is ugly. SSG and SSB are mistakes. Super Saiyan Rosé is what happens when you fuse God Ki and Super Saiyan and is Zamasu's exclusive form, so keep it.

Super Saiyan should have just had something unique depending on the user. Design-wise, of course, with all the different hairstyles, but performance-wise as well (Trunks' could make him faster, Vegeta's could make him stronger physically, Gohan's could give him better Ki control, something like that).

[ekrolo2]

Super Saiyan should have just had something unique depending on the user.

I probably mentioned this before but I'd have gone this route with them:

Goku masters SS better than anyone and combines it with KK to increase his power, he gets no higher forms.
Gohan doesn't get Super Saiyan period, his base state is what grows substantially more powerful as the story progresses.
Future Trunks would get SS2 as the "perfect" ascended state, giving power without being too taxing on speed or energy reserves.
Vegeta gets SS3 as his higher SS form, the technically strongest form but also the one that drains energy like a bitch, making it useless for prolonged fights.

[Doctor.]

Super Saiyan should have just had something unique depending on the user.

I probably mentioned this before but I'd have gone this route with them:

Goku masters SS better than anyone and combines it with KK to increase his power, he gets no higher forms.
Gohan doesn't get Super Saiyan period, his base state is what grows substantially more powerful as the story progresses.
Future Trunks would get SS2 as the "perfect" ascended state, giving power without being too taxing on speed or energy reserves.
Vegeta gets SS3 as his higher SS form, the technically strongest form but also the one that drains energy like a bitch, making it useless for prolonged fights.

So let me see if I understand, in this alternate form of the story, these would be the forms each character would have access to.

Goku: Base -> Super Saiyan (can stack Kaioken on top)
Gohan: Base/Ultimate
F. Trunks: Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2
Vegeta: Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 (his SS2 would be the equivalent of "our" SS3)

Is this right? Or would Vegeta get our SS2 as well? I interpreted it as Trunks and Vegeta are the only ones who ever ascend past Super Saiyan, but the forms they achieve are seperate in their strengths and weaknesses.

[Lord Beerus]

Super Saiyan 3. It's a form that came out of nowhere with zero build-up and is useless and impractical in battle. Just a pointless form. I stand by my opinion that SSJ4 was where the franchise jumped the shark, but I greatly appreciate the effort put into it, in regards to the design and the lore behind the form.

All of them minus 1 and 4.

How would we rewrite Dragon Ball with that scenario? So much shit doesn't happen.

[ekrolo2]

So let me see if I understand, in this alternate form of the story, these would be the forms each character would have access to.

Goku: Base -> Super Saiyan (can stack Kaioken on top)
Gohan: Base/Ultimate
F. Trunks: Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2
Vegeta: Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 (his SS2 would be the equivalent of "our" SS3)

Is this right? Or would Vegeta get our SS2 as well? I interpreted it as Trunks and Vegeta are the only ones who ever ascend past Super Saiyan, but the forms they achieve are seperate in their strengths and weaknesses.

Our SS3 would be his Super Saiyan 2 in this scenario yeah. Keeping with manga only forms, Goku would just use KK to make up for the power gaps between himself and Future Trunks & Vegeta. He'd never be able to go to times 20 like on Namek, probably up to 2-3 ideally with 5 being the point where he'd probably drop dead once the initial rush leaves him.

This would make every SS form unique to their user and varied instead of being something all of them can get if they work hard enough.

How would we rewrite Dragon Ball with that scenario? So much shit doesn't happen.

It would require substantial rewriting yeah

[Doctor.]

Our SS3 would be his Super Saiyan 2 in this scenario yeah. Keeping with manga only forms, Goku would just use KK to make up for the power gaps between himself and Future Trunks & Vegeta. He'd never be able to go to times 20 like on Namek, probably up to 2-3 ideally with 5 being the point where he'd probably drop dead once the initial rush leaves him.

This would make every SS form unique to their user and varied instead of being something all of them can get if they work hard enough.

That would work, but what would be the excuse as to why Gohan couldn't achieve Super Saiyan or why Goku couldn't get SS2?

I mean, Gohan is an easy one, just say that Guru's power-up back on Namek stopped him from ever being able to transform. But why wouldn't Goku be able to go SS2 when Vegeta can?

[Lord Beerus]

How would we rewrite Dragon Ball with that scenario? So much shit doesn't happen.

It would require substantial rewriting yeah

Can I count on you for that job?

[Captain Strawberry]

Super Saiyan 2 and 3. With Toriyama not explaining things, it makes things not as good to why further forms exist . If Toriyama says because of simply mutation, I don't think that's good writing.

Other than that, I don't really care.

SSJ2 should have been exclusive to Gohan as a sign of his potential. So it's the true SSJ for Gohan.

[ekrolo2]

That would work, but what would be the excuse as to why Gohan couldn't achieve Super Saiyan or why Goku couldn't get SS2?

I mean, Gohan is an easy one, just say that Guru's power-up back on Namek stopped him from ever being able to transform. But why wouldn't Goku be able to go SS2 when Vegeta can?

I haven't really thought of justifications

Off the top of my head I'd say Gohan's power is all readily available to him from birth, it's just a matter for him to bring it out through fighting & training where as Goku, Vegeta and Trunks biologically cannot raise their higher without "mutations" such as SS.

As for Goku not getting an ascended form, I primarily picked him stacking KK just because I like keeping that element of risk and reward for him going. Or you could just have him get 4 through some slightly alternate means so it stays unique to him and Vegeta can't get it too.

Can I count on you for that job?

I've already got one underway that smashed the Android & Boo arcs together and then a Black arc one to go.

[Makaioshin]

Monster Mash Zamasu didn't need to happen. None of the outside products have acknowledged that form yet and I'm kinda glad.
The Gowasu comment makes it mildly interesting, I guess.

[Akyon]

All Saiyan levels bar the Oozaru, SSJ and maybe one of the God forms. The sheer amount of these all powerful transformations the saiyans get is ridiculous; Oozaru, SSJ, USSJ, LSSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG, SSGSS, SSRose, SSJ4, Golden Oozaru, and whatever the hell Trunks' SSJ not quite Blue transformation was. That's twelve forms. WAY too many.

Evil Buu was pointless since Kid Buu was the pure evil Buu side. Buu didn't really need half as many absorption transformations as he got either. Fat Buu, Kid Buu and Super Buu would have been more than enough and the story would still work fine.

Frieza probably didn't need four initial transformations. Four is a weird amount, probably should have trimmed to three, particularly since the third form seemed to not really do much. Hell, really did he even need more than first form and last form?

But I'm not a fan of transformations anyway so I'm, pretty bias. It's a get out of jail free card to let characters(mostly the Saiyans) suddenly and easily overcome opponents without needing to engage their brains or fight smarter or come up with a clever way to use a technique to defeat an opponent. Basically I feel it's lazy writing.

[precita]

I think the difference is SSJ2 should have just been Super Saiyan at a perfected form, which is what they were trying to do in the Cell saga anyway with that big muscle form they were using. It didn't need to be called something new.

Also SSJ3 should have been exclusive to Goku. Its believeable that Goku managed to create a new transformation, but Gotenks shouldn't have gotten it.

[Captain Strawberry]

I think the difference is SSJ2 should have just been Super Saiyan at a perfected form, which is what they were trying to do in the Cell saga anyway with that big muscle form they were using. It didn't need to be called something new.

I'd only limit the SSJ2 to Gohan to symbolize Gohan's true powers/latent powers.

[Robo4900]

Super Saiyan Blue.

Wait, let me explain!

First off, SS1 and 2 were large parts of the story arcs they were introduced in, and both have their place in there. SS3 felt a little unnecessary in a way, but it shortening Goku's time due to its power drain, it meaning Goku was holding back in his fight against Majin Vegeta, and the fact it looks really cool make it worth it, and SS4 is the best, and it's a shame Super's retconned it.

(Also, BTW, before I explain this, let me just say I haven't seen Battle Of Gods or Resurrection F. I ended up not getting the chance to until I found out Super would be retelling them anyway, so I skipped out on them)

Super Saiyan God was a really cool transformation, and it making Goku look younger was a really cool way to allow the Saiyan characters to stay drawn young after the end of Z. But then Goku absorbs the form into his being, and it's gone. In a way, this was a really cool way to add foreshadowing for the Super Saiyan 4 while also removing any potential continuity errors created by Battle Of Gods back when it looked like this would just be an interqual with GT still being canon.
But, with Super retconning GT, this purpose is nullified.
And so, we get Super Saiyan Blue, which basically just exists to patch up the hole intentionally left by Super Saiyan God that was reserved for Super Saiyan 4.

The design of Blue is kind of cool, but it's basically just Super Saiyan God, but blue, and with a Super Saiyan hairstyle.

In an ideal world, I'd have liked to see Super(And I guess Resurrection F) just use Super Saiyan God as an actual form. Perhaps with Goku spending a lot of time learning to sustain it, and having to not drag out fights too much, otherwise he'd just burn out. It could even be used as a writing convenience for Goku to suddenly start losing a fight he was doing so well in -- he could just revert back to Super Saiyan. It'd be like Spider-Man's web shooters. And also like Spider-Man's web shooters, its limited nature would mean Goku couldn't just rely on it to make him strictly better than he was without it, meaning Vegeta would have even more reason to skip out on the Super Saiyan God ritual, and just focus on training with Whis and Beerus instead.

[Dbzfan94]

Trunks' form in Super

SSJG / SSJB

[sintzu]

I'd have Ssj2 be a full powered up Ssj1 instead and rename 3 to 2.

Assj & Ussj are just mucsled up Ssj1's so they can stay.

I'd also keep 4 but call it 3 instead.

I'd have SsjG just be a power up with the same design, just not be called a SsjG and SsjB would be SsjG.

[kinisking]

Super Saiyan should have just had something unique depending on the user.

I probably mentioned this before but I'd have gone this route with them:

Goku masters SS better than anyone and combines it with KK to increase his power, he gets no higher forms.
Gohan doesn't get Super Saiyan period, his base state is what grows substantially more powerful as the story progresses.
Future Trunks would get SS2 as the "perfect" ascended state, giving power without being too taxing on speed or energy reserves.
Vegeta gets SS3 as his higher SS form, the technically strongest form but also the one that drains energy like a bitch, making it useless for prolonged fights.

Is this me agreeing with you on Gohan for once? :O

I would ask what Goten would get but I feel like it won't be pretty

[Bansho64]

I would ask what Goten would get but I feel like it won't be pretty

Honestly, as long as he works for it, everything should be fine