Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
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Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
From Herms: "Vegeta heals with a Senzu too, but apparently doesn't power up. Specifically, Trunks speculates that Vegeta "probably" can't get near-death power-ups anymore because he's trained so much already"
Herms' tweet
So something we've been receiving hints about ever since basically the Androids saga. The Zenkais were probably deemed OP by Toriyama by that point, and a plot device removing all tension, seeing what a Zenkai did to Goku on Namek. Also, we never received a mention of anyone getting noticeably stronger after healing by that point. Not Goku after his heart disease, not Vegeta after having his spine broken by Cell, not Gohan after being pwned by Buu and healed by Kibito.
Toei made Broly able to sustain Zenkais at his level of power, either by not noticing this trend in the manga, or deliberately, to make him different. Black also seems to possess this trait, which makes him OP. But not the rest of the guys. Pretty much what I've been thinking all along by observing the storyline.
Herms' tweet
So something we've been receiving hints about ever since basically the Androids saga. The Zenkais were probably deemed OP by Toriyama by that point, and a plot device removing all tension, seeing what a Zenkai did to Goku on Namek. Also, we never received a mention of anyone getting noticeably stronger after healing by that point. Not Goku after his heart disease, not Vegeta after having his spine broken by Cell, not Gohan after being pwned by Buu and healed by Kibito.
Toei made Broly able to sustain Zenkais at his level of power, either by not noticing this trend in the manga, or deliberately, to make him different. Black also seems to possess this trait, which makes him OP. But not the rest of the guys. Pretty much what I've been thinking all along by observing the storyline.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Buutenks noted that Gohan too didn't power-up at all when healed by Dende. I've always thought Zenkais tapped into a Saiyan's hidden potential.
Goku and Vegeta maxed out their natural potential way back into Androids Arc. They were able to improve thanks to the incredible amount of training they did and because they trained their Super Saiyan forms.
Goku and Vegeta maxed out their natural potential way back into Androids Arc. They were able to improve thanks to the incredible amount of training they did and because they trained their Super Saiyan forms.
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What I consider canonical
What I consider canonical
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
zenkai's were replaced by ssj forms, there hasn't been mentions of them after the frieza arc.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
vegeta was beaten senseless by cell got a senzu and he didn't power up. If he would've gotten 20% stronger i bet he goes back to fight cell.
gohan didn't get one being pummeled by buu
vegeta and goku didn't get 1 after dende healed them with the fight again buu
etc.. etc..
gohan didn't get one being pummeled by buu
vegeta and goku didn't get 1 after dende healed them with the fight again buu
etc.. etc..
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Don't need them anymore since there are multiple ways to conveniently power up characters now.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Jeez its nice to get some kind of exposition at all. These are questions weve had for decades.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Well, the fact that I felt compelled to make this thread signifies that I've found this worrisome too. Because yes, there are people who think zenkais are still a thing, and you'd be surprised just how many.ekrolo2 wrote:Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Oh I know how many people think they still exist, I just find them totally wrong because the series always comments on such increases when they happen in a very specific way and no one except Cell ever gets one after Namek.Saturnine wrote:Well, the fact that I felt compelled to make this thread signifies that I've found this worrisome too. Because yes, there are people who think zenkais are still a thing, and you'd be surprised just how many.ekrolo2 wrote:Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.ekrolo2 wrote:Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.
Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
You can tell Black hasn't trained in a while, he's not very muscular. Remember all the Goten theories because of that?kinisking wrote:The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.ekrolo2 wrote:Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.
Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Super Saiyan getting introduced is what halts Zenkai's from showing up again, that's the reason no one after Namek gets them anymore. If they did, Vegeta would've been able to kill Perfect Cell with absolute ease after eating a Senzu given how big they were getting on Namek by the end.kinisking wrote:The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.
Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?
Black's a foreign entity in Goku's body, I don't see his "zenkai" as anything more than him getting more access to Goku's already existing power.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
I'm not arguing if Zenkai's exist or not. It's the reasoning behind it.ekrolo2 wrote:Super Saiyan getting introduced is what halts Zenkai's from showing up again, that's the reason no one after Namek gets them anymore. If they did, Vegeta would've been able to kill Perfect Cell with absolute ease after eating a Senzu given how big they were getting on Namek by the end.kinisking wrote:The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.
Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?
Black's a foreign entity in Goku's body, I don't see his "zenkai" as anything more than him getting more access to Goku's already existing power.
Super Saiyan halting it makes sense but trunks cited "training so much" as the reason. The fact that he speculates about it regarding vegeta makes me think trunks still gets them for some reason. You think he would have thought about this earlier when he himself stopped getting zenkais. Plus he didn't cite super Saiyan, but rather the amount of training.
Gohan didn't get a zenkai after fat boo beat him. Or against freeza in ROF.You can tell Black hasn't trained in a while, he's not very muscular. Remember all the Goten theories because of that?
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
I like how the manga explained why Black needed another Zamasu for his plan. He was abusing Goku's zenkais and a Kaio-shin servant's healing abilities.
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Anyway, that Black strength increase is more complicated than zenkai.
Each time he clash with past Goku, past Goku became a little stronger and so his future body/Black too. But Black also get his own zenkai so increase even a little more than past Goku.
That's explain the quick grow.
As for zenkai, it was a quick way to earn lacking power, but only to a given point.
Each time he clash with past Goku, past Goku became a little stronger and so his future body/Black too. But Black also get his own zenkai so increase even a little more than past Goku.
That's explain the quick grow.
As for zenkai, it was a quick way to earn lacking power, but only to a given point.
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.
Makes sort of sense, but why is he already stronger than Goku from the get-go if he can't even access all of Goku's power?ekrolo2 wrote:Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
The first clash seems almost equal, with a Goku small prevail.Doctor. wrote:I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.
Makes sort of sense, but why is he already stronger than Goku from the get-go if he can't even access all of Goku's power?ekrolo2 wrote:Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.
Mind that Zamasu already know hot to use God Ki, but anaware of Goku body use.
Clashing with Goku give him more insight of how Goku body really work.
So, perfect Goku knowledge + God Ki = Black started to kick serious asses.
(the real strange fact is: so a SSJ2 level fighter is able to defeat all god tiers?)
Last edited by ChronoTwigger on Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
It's obvious bullshit, but the way Herms relayed it, Zenkai seem to stop after a Saiyan hits a certain peak in training. By my current interpretation, Goku Black can continue to Zenkai until he masters the body.Doctor. wrote:I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.
Not the best retcon, but I can live with it.
Retired.
Re: Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais
Stronger than him in Base? I'd say that's a result of the transfer. We don't know how strong Zamasu was in his Kai body but let's say he's as strong as SS2 Goku.Doctor. wrote:I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.
Makes sort of sense, but why is he already stronger than Goku from the get-go if he can't even access all of Goku's power?ekrolo2 wrote:Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.
When he switches bodies with Goku, his old strength level becomes the new standard for his new body but he has to fight strong opponents to synchronize his mind with Goku's body to get stronger.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
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