Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais

[Saturnine]

From Herms: "Vegeta heals with a Senzu too, but apparently doesn't power up. Specifically, Trunks speculates that Vegeta "probably" can't get near-death power-ups anymore because he's trained so much already"

Herms' tweet

So something we've been receiving hints about ever since basically the Androids saga. The Zenkais were probably deemed OP by Toriyama by that point, and a plot device removing all tension, seeing what a Zenkai did to Goku on Namek. Also, we never received a mention of anyone getting noticeably stronger after healing by that point. Not Goku after his heart disease, not Vegeta after having his spine broken by Cell, not Gohan after being pwned by Buu and healed by Kibito.

Toei made Broly able to sustain Zenkais at his level of power, either by not noticing this trend in the manga, or deliberately, to make him different. Black also seems to possess this trait, which makes him OP. But not the rest of the guys. Pretty much what I've been thinking all along by observing the storyline.

[emperior]

Buutenks noted that Gohan too didn't power-up at all when healed by Dende. I've always thought Zenkais tapped into a Saiyan's hidden potential.
Goku and Vegeta maxed out their natural potential way back into Androids Arc. They were able to improve thanks to the incredible amount of training they did and because they trained their Super Saiyan forms.

[jplaya2023]

zenkai's were replaced by ssj forms, there hasn't been mentions of them after the frieza arc.

[ekrolo2]

Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.

[jplaya2023]

vegeta was beaten senseless by cell got a senzu and he didn't power up. If he would've gotten 20% stronger i bet he goes back to fight cell.

gohan didn't get one being pummeled by buu

vegeta and goku didn't get 1 after dende healed them with the fight again buu

etc.. etc..

[Yedis]

Don't need them anymore since there are multiple ways to conveniently power up characters now.

[TheMikado]

Jeez its nice to get some kind of exposition at all. These are questions weve had for decades.

[Saturnine]

Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.

Well, the fact that I felt compelled to make this thread signifies that I've found this worrisome too. Because yes, there are people who think zenkais are still a thing, and you'd be surprised just how many.

[ekrolo2]

Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.

Well, the fact that I felt compelled to make this thread signifies that I've found this worrisome too. Because yes, there are people who think zenkais are still a thing, and you'd be surprised just how many.

Oh I know how many people think they still exist, I just find them totally wrong because the series always comments on such increases when they happen in a very specific way and no one except Cell ever gets one after Namek.

[kinisking]

Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.

The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.

Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?

[TheMikado]

Zenkai's haven't been a thing since Namek with Cell being the only exception (and it didn't make sense for him to get one either). Anyone who's shocked or surprised by this hasn't got the beginnings of a fucking clue about this series.

The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.

Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?

You can tell Black hasn't trained in a while, he's not very muscular. Remember all the Goten theories because of that?

[ekrolo2]

The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.

Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?

Super Saiyan getting introduced is what halts Zenkai's from showing up again, that's the reason no one after Namek gets them anymore. If they did, Vegeta would've been able to kill Perfect Cell with absolute ease after eating a Senzu given how big they were getting on Namek by the end.

Black's a foreign entity in Goku's body, I don't see his "zenkai" as anything more than him getting more access to Goku's already existing power.

[kinisking]

The reasoning is off though. Doesn't goku black get one this chapter? He has goku's body.

Why did Gohan, Goten, and trunks stop getting zenkais even though they didn't train as much as vegeta when he had stopped getting zenkais? I guess for Goten and trunks it could be stated that gotenks zenkais doesn't transfer but Gohan?

Super Saiyan getting introduced is what halts Zenkai's from showing up again, that's the reason no one after Namek gets them anymore. If they did, Vegeta would've been able to kill Perfect Cell with absolute ease after eating a Senzu given how big they were getting on Namek by the end.

Black's a foreign entity in Goku's body, I don't see his "zenkai" as anything more than him getting more access to Goku's already existing power.

I'm not arguing if Zenkai's exist or not. It's the reasoning behind it.

Super Saiyan halting it makes sense but trunks cited "training so much" as the reason. The fact that he speculates about it regarding vegeta makes me think trunks still gets them for some reason. You think he would have thought about this earlier when he himself stopped getting zenkais. Plus he didn't cite super Saiyan, but rather the amount of training.

You can tell Black hasn't trained in a while, he's not very muscular. Remember all the Goten theories because of that?

Gohan didn't get a zenkai after fat boo beat him. Or against freeza in ROF.

[ekrolo2]

Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.

[LuckyCat]

I like how the manga explained why Black needed another Zamasu for his plan. He was abusing Goku's zenkais and a Kaio-shin servant's healing abilities.

[ChronoTwigger]

Anyway, that Black strength increase is more complicated than zenkai.
Each time he clash with past Goku, past Goku became a little stronger and so his future body/Black too. But Black also get his own zenkai so increase even a little more than past Goku.
That's explain the quick grow.

As for zenkai, it was a quick way to earn lacking power, but only to a given point.

[Doctor.]

I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.

Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.

Makes sort of sense, but why is he already stronger than Goku from the get-go if he can't even access all of Goku's power?

[ChronoTwigger]

I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.

Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.

Makes sort of sense, but why is he already stronger than Goku from the get-go if he can't even access all of Goku's power?

The first clash seems almost equal, with a Goku small prevail.
Mind that Zamasu already know hot to use God Ki, but anaware of Goku body use.
Clashing with Goku give him more insight of how Goku body really work.
So, perfect Goku knowledge + God Ki = Black started to kick serious asses.

(the real strange fact is: so a SSJ2 level fighter is able to defeat all god tiers?)

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.

It's obvious bullshit, but the way Herms relayed it, Zenkai seem to stop after a Saiyan hits a certain peak in training. By my current interpretation, Goku Black can continue to Zenkai until he masters the body.

Not the best retcon, but I can live with it.

[ekrolo2]

I think the explanation makes sense, since it's what has been fanon for a while now, but I don't get why Black (who is, essentially, Goku) is exempt from this rule and can get zenkais.

Herms weighed in on this Zenkai stuff and seems to think Black's variation on it comes from him not mentally being able to access all of Goku's power. The power already exists there, he just hasn't made his mind sync with the body yet which is an interesting take on it.

Makes sort of sense, but why is he already stronger than Goku from the get-go if he can't even access all of Goku's power?

Stronger than him in Base? I'd say that's a result of the transfer. We don't know how strong Zamasu was in his Kai body but let's say he's as strong as SS2 Goku.

When he switches bodies with Goku, his old strength level becomes the new standard for his new body but he has to fight strong opponents to synchronize his mind with Goku's body to get stronger.