Toyotaro tracing

[mawilex]

That being said, Toyotaro is said to be the successor to Toriyama and it looks like he takes that title very seriously.

Said... who, exactly? "A successor to Toriyama when it comes to drawing / creating future Dragon Ball-related content" is a far more fitting title for him, because Toriyama isn't just a guy who draws Dragon Ball panels, he's a unique artist, a very creative character-designer and has a writing style that's proper to him, among other things. Calling the guy "successor to Toriyama" that easily just because he's somewhat good at emulating his artstyle is too big of a title for him and is in my eyes both insulting to Toriyama and insulting to Toyotaro, because it's implying that you can become a Toriyama by just drawing Dragon Ball characters riding motorcyles or dinosaurs, and also reduces Toyotaro to just a lifeless robot who's constantly wearing another person's mask (If that makes sense...), when he actually is not. He's a big fan of Toriyama, but he also has a different style than him, whether it be art-wise or writing-wise, and being different is not being bad, it's being unique, it's having a personality, it's refreshing. Giving Toyotaro that title is not giving him credit for the unique qualities he has.

If people want to call him that, why would he be more deserving for that title than Nakatsuru who drew the Dr. Slump "sequel", New Cashman, made lots of promotional pictures for the Dragon Quest series, all of that while emulating Toriyama's artstyle far better than anyone else? And while we're at it, why don't we call Naho Ooishi and DragonGarrowLee that as well? That's just stupid. Toriyama is Toriyama. Toyotaro is Toyble. No one is or will ever be a successor to anyone, everyone is and will forever be their own unique person.

Sorry for going a little off-topic.

Says who? Toriyama. I imagine he would know who's "worthy" more than any of us.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Of course he does. Did I say otherwise? Doesn't that message from Toriyama go hand in hand with my second sentence?

[MyNiggaGoku]

I know exactly what you mean, but like I said, the big money maker is the anime, so that needs to be on it's A game everytime. The manga just needs to be good enough to raise interest in the anime. It's nothing but complementing it, instead of being a true viable alternative to the story, no matter what it's fanboys think. Everybody at Toei and even Toyotaro is treating it as such.
The manga plays everything safe, doesn't try to do anything new (it's big differences are Goku using God and Black using the old Super Saiyan) and therefore it doesn't fall into the anime's trap where it's much more bombastic and exciting, but also prone to hate of those changes. For a promo manga that's fine.

I'm sorry,but I think you're wrong.I am a big fan of the manga & I prefer it over the anime for various reasons but I completely accept the fact that it is a promotional tool for the anime(which is of course the main product),but it's not only that.It makes some changes but the narrative of the story stays the same as the anime's,I'll give you that.However,if the manga wasn't to be treated as a true viable alternative to the story,then it would just be a shameless copy of the anime.Imagine yourself reading the manga first & then watching the anime.I think you would be dumbfounded by all the differences the 1 version has from the other.The manga isn't playing it safe either.It must follow a certain outline Tori gives,the same the anime follows.They can fill in the details,something that both Toei & Toyo do.If the changes the manga makes is considered as ''playing it safe'',then the same can be said for the anime & its changes.It's up to you to choose what version of events you like the most.
Also,how can you say so easily that Toyotaro himself is treating his manga as something so small as you try to make it look?I'm pretty sure that Toyo considers this project as his most important one in his life so far.He also gets Toriyama's approval in every chapter,something that confirms that Toriyama is actually interested in the manga.Even Viz started transalting the chapters but they didn't even translated the RoF manga,which was a solely promotional thing for the RoF movie.All in all,it may not be the MAIN product,but the manga is STILL a product on its own,whether you like it or not.

[Draconic]

I know exactly what you mean, but like I said, the big money maker is the anime, so that needs to be on it's A game everytime. The manga just needs to be good enough to raise interest in the anime. It's nothing but complementing it, instead of being a true viable alternative to the story, no matter what it's fanboys think. Everybody at Toei and even Toyotaro is treating it as such.
The manga plays everything safe, doesn't try to do anything new (it's big differences are Goku using God and Black using the old Super Saiyan) and therefore it doesn't fall into the anime's trap where it's much more bombastic and exciting, but also prone to hate of those changes. For a promo manga that's fine.

I'm sorry,but I think you're wrong.I am a big fan of the manga & I prefer it over the anime for various reasons but I completely accept the fact that it is a promotional tool for the anime(which is of course the main product),but it's not only that.It makes some changes but the narrative of the story stays the same as the anime's,I'll give you that.However,if the manga wasn't to be treated as a true viable alternative to the story,then it would just be a shameless copy of the anime.Imagine yourself reading the manga first & then watching the anime.I think you would be dumbfounded by all the differences the 1 version has from the other.The manga isn't playing it safe either.It must follow a certain outline Tori gives,the same the anime follows.They can fill in the details,something that both Toei & Toyo do.If the changes the manga makes is considered as ''playing it safe'',then the same can be said for the anime & its changes.It's up to you to choose what version of events you like the most.
Also,how can you say so easily that Toyotaro himself is treating his manga as something so small as you try to make it look?I'm pretty sure that Toyo considers this project as his most important one in his life so far.He also gets Toriyama's approval in every chapter,something that confirms that Toriyama is actually interested in the manga.Even Viz started transalting the chapters but they didn't even translated the RoF manga,which was a solely promotional thing for the RoF movie.All in all,it may not be the MAIN product,but the manga is STILL a product on its own,whether you like it or not.

Simple. Due to the sheer lack of quality paneling and interesting writing and the rushed artwork and poor characterizations of pretty much every single character. If those things are not intentionally made by Toyotaro then it means he is simply a poor mangaka, but due to the fact we know how little publicity the manga is given, it's mediocre sales and the little time given between chapters I think it's safer to say that Toyotaro is half-assing some stuff on purpose in order to reach deadlines and just please his superiors. I can't fathom anyone would have hired such a talentless artist to do an official product, so there must be something else holding him back.

[MyNiggaGoku]

I know exactly what you mean, but like I said, the big money maker is the anime, so that needs to be on it's A game everytime. The manga just needs to be good enough to raise interest in the anime. It's nothing but complementing it, instead of being a true viable alternative to the story, no matter what it's fanboys think. Everybody at Toei and even Toyotaro is treating it as such.
The manga plays everything safe, doesn't try to do anything new (it's big differences are Goku using God and Black using the old Super Saiyan) and therefore it doesn't fall into the anime's trap where it's much more bombastic and exciting, but also prone to hate of those changes. For a promo manga that's fine.

I'm sorry,but I think you're wrong.I am a big fan of the manga & I prefer it over the anime for various reasons but I completely accept the fact that it is a promotional tool for the anime(which is of course the main product),but it's not only that.It makes some changes but the narrative of the story stays the same as the anime's,I'll give you that.However,if the manga wasn't to be treated as a true viable alternative to the story,then it would just be a shameless copy of the anime.Imagine yourself reading the manga first & then watching the anime.I think you would be dumbfounded by all the differences the 1 version has from the other.The manga isn't playing it safe either.It must follow a certain outline Tori gives,the same the anime follows.They can fill in the details,something that both Toei & Toyo do.If the changes the manga makes is considered as ''playing it safe'',then the same can be said for the anime & its changes.It's up to you to choose what version of events you like the most.
Also,how can you say so easily that Toyotaro himself is treating his manga as something so small as you try to make it look?I'm pretty sure that Toyo considers this project as his most important one in his life so far.He also gets Toriyama's approval in every chapter,something that confirms that Toriyama is actually interested in the manga.Even Viz started transalting the chapters but they didn't even translated the RoF manga,which was a solely promotional thing for the RoF movie.All in all,it may not be the MAIN product,but the manga is STILL a product on its own,whether you like it or not.

Simple. Due to the sheer lack of quality paneling and interesting writing and the rushed artwork and poor characterizations of pretty much every single character. If those things are not intentionally made by Toyotaro then it means he is simply a poor mangaka, but due to the fact we know how little publicity the manga is given, it's mediocre sales and the little time given between chapters I think it's safer to say that Toyotaro is half-assing some stuff on purpose in order to reach deadlines and just please his superiors. I can't fathom anyone would have hired such a talentless artist to do an official product, so there must be something else holding him back.

You realise everything you say is just your opinion & not a fact,right? I'm not saying I can't respect your opinion,on the contrary,I can see your points & you back up your thoughts pretty well even though I don't agree with you.I like the manga for various reasons and you may not like it for other reasons.That's perfectly fine.For me,the artwork & the characterizations are just fine but I can see why it's not working out for you.Unfortunately,Toyo is still somewhat unexperienced but with Toriyama tutoring him,I'm pretty sure he can improve & emulate Toriyama's style even better while maintaining his own distinct style.

[Doctor.]

It's not tracing. Tracing implies that he copies Toriyama's panels in every way, he doesn't, Toyotaro changes up the angles, the anatomy to suit his style, the positioning of the limbs and such. They're homages. If you want an example of a tracer, look no further than YoungJiji's earlier work.

With that being said, it's still incredibly off-putting. The homages are fine when they're being done like the Goku and Vegeta poses or Dabura killing Kibito, when they're relevant to the context and make sense. When they're being done for no reason at all (such as Frost being knocked out in the same way Goku was against Raditz, or Vegeta using the same attack future Trunks did to destroy Cell), it just comes off as distracting and lacking in originality in terms of choreography. The fact that the fighting choreography in Toyotaro's works is incredibly bland makes me believe he puts these homages in because he can't think of something interesting to do on his own.

[MathSSJ]

I'm sorry,but I think you're wrong.I am a big fan of the manga & I prefer it over the anime for various reasons but I completely accept the fact that it is a promotional tool for the anime(which is of course the main product),but it's not only that.It makes some changes but the narrative of the story stays the same as the anime's,I'll give you that.However,if the manga wasn't to be treated as a true viable alternative to the story,then it would just be a shameless copy of the anime.Imagine yourself reading the manga first & then watching the anime.I think you would be dumbfounded by all the differences the 1 version has from the other.The manga isn't playing it safe either.It must follow a certain outline Tori gives,the same the anime follows.They can fill in the details,something that both Toei & Toyo do.If the changes the manga makes is considered as ''playing it safe'',then the same can be said for the anime & its changes.It's up to you to choose what version of events you like the most.
Also,how can you say so easily that Toyotaro himself is treating his manga as something so small as you try to make it look?I'm pretty sure that Toyo considers this project as his most important one in his life so far.He also gets Toriyama's approval in every chapter,something that confirms that Toriyama is actually interested in the manga.Even Viz started transalting the chapters but they didn't even translated the RoF manga,which was a solely promotional thing for the RoF movie.All in all,it may not be the MAIN product,but the manga is STILL a product on its own,whether you like it or not.

Simple. Due to the sheer lack of quality paneling and interesting writing and the rushed artwork and poor characterizations of pretty much every single character. If those things are not intentionally made by Toyotaro then it means he is simply a poor mangaka, but due to the fact we know how little publicity the manga is given, it's mediocre sales and the little time given between chapters I think it's safer to say that Toyotaro is half-assing some stuff on purpose in order to reach deadlines and just please his superiors. I can't fathom anyone would have hired such a talentless artist to do an official product, so there must be something else holding him back.

You realise everything you say is just your opinion & not a fact,right? I'm not saying I can't respect your opinion,on the contrary,I can see your points & you back up your thoughts pretty well even though I don't agree with you.I like the manga for various reasons and you may not like it for other reasons.That's perfectly fine.For me,the artwork & the characterizations are just fine but I can see why it's not working out for you.Unfortunately,Toyo is still somewhat unexperienced but with Toriyama tutoring him,I'm pretty sure he can improve & emulate Toriyama's style even better while maintaining his own distinct style.

What he said is not opinion. The manga's paneling is bland. You can pretty much see every single fight scene he did and compare it to Toriyama's back in the original run. The difference is night and day with Tori having a much worse schedule back then and he didn't have the basic outline of the plot already laid out for him. His characterization, while most definitely in-character, are some of the blandest I've ever seen Goku and Vegeta be.

He does a decent job at trimming out the fat of Toei's versions of the same arcs while giving a workable story on it's own, so it's nice for perspective and allowing us to have some greater insight on what Toriyama's outlines are, but other then that? Eh... The anime has a lot of garbage in it. And I mean a lot, but it has genuine highs. The manga is a overwhelmingly mediocre product that never dips as low, but can never really match the anime's peaks either.

[mawilex]

I'm pretty sure he can improve & emulate Toriyama's style even better while maintaining his own distinct style.

I think he's great at doing so already. If he keeps trying to emulate Toriyama's style more and more, I don't see how his own distinct style will keep shining through. What he needs to do is to polish his own work and add more line variation to his drawings, to bring some depth and more "life" to his panels. Other than that, his story-boarding is pretty decent and his fight scenes very dynamic and always a pleasure to follow.

[MyNiggaGoku]

Simple. Due to the sheer lack of quality paneling and interesting writing and the rushed artwork and poor characterizations of pretty much every single character. If those things are not intentionally made by Toyotaro then it means he is simply a poor mangaka, but due to the fact we know how little publicity the manga is given, it's mediocre sales and the little time given between chapters I think it's safer to say that Toyotaro is half-assing some stuff on purpose in order to reach deadlines and just please his superiors. I can't fathom anyone would have hired such a talentless artist to do an official product, so there must be something else holding him back.

You realise everything you say is just your opinion & not a fact,right? I'm not saying I can't respect your opinion,on the contrary,I can see your points & you back up your thoughts pretty well even though I don't agree with you.I like the manga for various reasons and you may not like it for other reasons.That's perfectly fine.For me,the artwork & the characterizations are just fine but I can see why it's not working out for you.Unfortunately,Toyo is still somewhat unexperienced but with Toriyama tutoring him,I'm pretty sure he can improve & emulate Toriyama's style even better while maintaining his own distinct style.

What he said is not opinion. The manga's paneling is bland. You can pretty much see every single fight scene he did and compare it to Toriyama's back in the original run. The difference is night and day with Tori having a much worse schedule back then and he didn't have the basic outline of the plot already laid out for him. His characterization, while most definitely in-character, are some of the blandest I've ever seen Goku and Vegeta be.

He does a decent job at trimming out the fat of Toei's versions of the same arcs while giving a workable story on it's own, so it's nice for perspective and allowing us to have some greater insight on what Toriyama's outlines are, but other then that? Eh... The anime has a lot of garbage in it. And I mean a lot, but it has genuine highs. The manga is a overwhelmingly mediocre product that never dips as low, but can never really match the anime's peaks either.

When it was announced that Super will have a manga too,nobody expected Toyotaro to be as good/better than Toriyama.He does a good job for what he is right now,and he'll keep improving constantly.
The only thing that is a fact about Super,is that neither the anime nor the manga is a perfect product.Each one has its pros & cons that everyone can see.As long as that is understandable by someone,then it really is a matter of perspective.You feel that the manga is mediocre when compared to the previous manga & that it can never match the anime's peaks but if I feel that that's not the case & consider the manga a good product overall(which I do),am I wrong?No,but neither are you.Because we have different opinions & preferences,that's all.

[MyNiggaGoku]

I'm pretty sure he can improve & emulate Toriyama's style even better while maintaining his own distinct style.

If he keeps trying to emulate Toriyama's style more and more, I don't see how his own distinct style will keep shining through.

He can have his own style while retaining a nostalgic feel to Toriyama's style.I think we can already see that while keeping his own style intact,his drawings scream something like ''Wow,that's Toriyama-esque!'' and not something like ''Did Toriyama himself drew that ?!''.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It's not tracing. Tracing implies that he copies Toriyama's panels in every way, he doesn't, Toyotaro changes up the angles, the anatomy to suit his style, the positioning of the limbs and such. They're homages.

Homage a very generous word for it. These similarities are often so similar down to the gnat's ass, there's no way tracing wasn't involved. By the way, when we say he's "tracing", we mean that he copies them, tweaks them to suit his characters and background, at puts out the result (or some version of that process). Maybe it's just me, but when a significant portion of his manga is just that, it's a little more than an homage, and you know this is coming from someone who's fairly lenient on Toyotaro.

With that being said, it's still incredibly off-putting. The homages are fine when they're being done like the Goku and Vegeta poses or Dabura killing Kibito, when they're relevant to the context and make sense. When they're being done for no reason at all (such as Frost being knocked out in the same way Goku was against Raditz, or Vegeta using the same attack future Trunks did to destroy Cell), it just comes off as distracting and lacking in originality in terms of choreography. The fact that the fighting choreography in Toyotaro's works is incredibly bland makes me believe he puts this homages in because he can't think of something interesting to do on his own.

That's exactly what it is, and it's shameful, bordering on plagiarism.

[Ki Breaker]

It's not tracing. Tracing implies that he copies Toriyama's panels in every way, he doesn't, Toyotaro changes up the angles, the anatomy to suit his style, the positioning of the limbs and such. They're homages.

Homage a very generous word for it. These similarities are often so similar down to the gnat's ass, there's no way tracing wasn't involved. By the way, when we say he's "tracing", we mean that he copies them, tweaks them to suit his characters and background, at puts out the result (or some version of that process). Maybe it's just me, but when a significant portion of his manga is just that, it's a little more than an homage, and you know this is coming from someone who's fairly lenient on Toyotaro.

With that being said, it's still incredibly off-putting. The homages are fine when they're being done like the Goku and Vegeta poses or Dabura killing Kibito, when they're relevant to the context and make sense. When they're being done for no reason at all (such as Frost being knocked out in the same way Goku was against Raditz, or Vegeta using the same attack future Trunks did to destroy Cell), it just comes off as distracting and lacking in originality in terms of choreography. The fact that the fighting choreography in Toyotaro's works is incredibly bland makes me believe he puts this homages in because he can't think of something interesting to do on his own.

That's exactly what it is, and it's shameful, bordering on plagiarism.

That quite true, even if the manga is my go to medium for super it isn't without it's flaws and this is the biggest flaw it has..

[Doctor.]

It's not tracing. Tracing implies that he copies Toriyama's panels in every way, he doesn't, Toyotaro changes up the angles, the anatomy to suit his style, the positioning of the limbs and such. They're homages.

Homage a very generous word for it. These similarities are often so similar down to the gnat's ass, there's no way tracing wasn't involved. By the way, when we say he's "tracing", we mean that he copies them, tweaks them to suit his characters and background, at puts out the result (or some version of that process). Maybe it's just me, but when a significant portion of his manga is just that, it's a little more than an homage, and you know this is coming from someone who's fairly lenient on Toyotaro.

That's exactly what it is, and it's shameful, bordering on plagiarism.

It's not tracing because he's not literally tracing over them. You look at YoungJijii and you overlap one of his panels with one of Toriyama's panels, and it's the exact same thing, the only difference being the characters involved and the background, obviously. But besides that, the panel is the same even when the anatomy between Toriyama's and Jijii's art styles should be different. You overlap a Toyotaro panel with a panel from Toriyama and you can see it isn't the exact same, lines don't overlap well, anatomy isn't the same, angles sometimes aren't the same either. It's clear Toyotaro draws them on his own, even if he uses Toriyama's panels as a reference. Jijii doesn't use them as a reference, he steals them.

It's definitely shameful, but can we call it plagiarism if apparently Toriyama is A-okay with it?

[TheMikado]

It's not tracing. Tracing implies that he copies Toriyama's panels in every way, he doesn't, Toyotaro changes up the angles, the anatomy to suit his style, the positioning of the limbs and such. They're homages.

Homage a very generous word for it. These similarities are often so similar down to the gnat's ass, there's no way tracing wasn't involved. By the way, when we say he's "tracing", we mean that he copies them, tweaks them to suit his characters and background, at puts out the result (or some version of that process). Maybe it's just me, but when a significant portion of his manga is just that, it's a little more than an homage, and you know this is coming from someone who's fairly lenient on Toyotaro.

With that being said, it's still incredibly off-putting. The homages are fine when they're being done like the Goku and Vegeta poses or Dabura killing Kibito, when they're relevant to the context and make sense. When they're being done for no reason at all (such as Frost being knocked out in the same way Goku was against Raditz, or Vegeta using the same attack future Trunks did to destroy Cell), it just comes off as distracting and lacking in originality in terms of choreography. The fact that the fighting choreography in Toyotaro's works is incredibly bland makes me believe he puts this homages in because he can't think of something interesting to do on his own.

That's exactly what it is, and it's shameful, bordering on plagiarism.

I'm pretty sure it's not, especially when Toriyama reviews his work. If he considered it plagiarism he would have said something by now.

Plagiarism: the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It's not tracing because he's not literally tracing over them. You look at YoungJijii and you overlap one of his panels with one of Toriyama's panels, and it's the exact same thing, the only difference being the characters involved and the background, obviously. But besides that, the panel is the same even when the anatomy between Toriyama's and Jijii's art styles should be different. You overlap a Toyotaro panel with a panel from Toriyama and you can see it isn't the exact same, lines don't overlap well, anatomy isn't the same, angles sometimes aren't the same either

I just explained to you that when we say he's tracing, we don't literally mean the final result as identical to a Toriyama panel. Rather, he traces and tweaks to better fit what he's doing. Naturally, his own style would emerge once the adjustments started.

Of course, I don't deny that some of them are harmless homages, but those aren't the ones we're talking about, and they're in the minority, regardless.

It's definitely shameful, but can we call it plagiarism if apparently Toriyama is A-okay with it?

Yes, we can. Even with the consent of the original author, plagiarism isn't negated.

I'm pretty sure it's not, especially when Toriyama reviews his work. If he considered it plagiarism he would have said something by now.

Plagiarism: the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

Didn't I say "bordering on"? Either way, consent doesn't refute plagiarism, not even by the definition you just gave.

[Doctor.]

I just explained to you that when we say he's tracing, we don't literally mean the final result as identical to a Toriyama panel. Rather, he traces and tweaks to better fit what he's doing. Naturally, his own style would emerge once the adjustments started.

I'm aware. My point (from my first post in this thread) was that the word was being misused. What he's doing is still bad. Words mean things.

Yes, we can. Even with the consent of the original author, plagiarism isn't negated.

Not an expert on the subject, but it's negated in the legal sense if he has consent.

[RehBeh]

Plagiarism: the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

Didn't I say "bordering on"? Either way, consent doesn't refute plagiarism, not even by the definition you just gave.[/quote]

Plagiarism IS the definition he gave. If Toyo openly admits that he uses Toriyama's work for references and doesn't pass it as his own it's not plagiarism.

[RehBeh]

Yes, we can. Even with the consent of the original author, plagiarism isn't negated.

I'm pretty sure it's not, especially when Toriyama reviews his work. If he considered it plagiarism he would have said something by now.

Plagiarism: the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

Didn't I say "bordering on"? Either way, consent doesn't refute plagiarism, not even by the definition you just gave.

Plagiarism IS the definition he gave. If Toyo openly admits that he uses Toriyama's work for references and doesn't pass it as his own it's not plagiarism.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I just explained to you that when we say he's tracing, we don't literally mean the final result as identical to a Toriyama panel. Rather, he traces and tweaks to better fit what he's doing. Naturally, his own style would emerge once the adjustments started.

I'm aware. My point (from my first post in this thread) was that the word was being misused. What he's doing is still bad. Words mean things.

You have a problem calling it "tracing" if the final panel has adjustments applied? It's still most likely the result of a traced image. I could hold a piece of paper over Mona Lisa and copy pencil for paint stroke, then reshape her into a more masculine build in a redraw of that. It's still the result of tracing.

The word is fine.

If Toyo openly admits that he uses Toriyama's work for references and doesn't pass it as his own it's not plagiarism.

He goes much farther than "using Toriyama's work for reference". Even if he admitted what he was actually doing, that wouldn't make it not plagiarism. I still haven't said that it is, by the way, only that's it's on the edge of that cliff.

[Draconic]

Is Toriyama really A-ok with it though? If he sometimes can't recall story beats, would he recall specific panels?

[mawilex]

He can have his own style while retaining a nostalgic feel to Toriyama's style.

Agreed. And that's totally the way to go for Toyotaro.

I think we can already see that while keeping his own style intact,his drawings scream something like ''Wow,that's Toriyama-esque!'' and not something like ''Did Toriyama himself drew that ?!''.

Indeed. That's why I said he's great as he is right now, he's in a perfect balance between emulating Toriyama and expressing himself through his own style. All I said was that he doesn't need to try emulating Toriyama more, because doing so would just break that balance and make him fall into the "Did Toriyama himself draw that?!" category, turning him into a bland and less interesting artist.