To End or Not to End

[ABED]

Should the series have an ending or should DB go on forever? My thought is that it should end. Toriyama wrote for a decade, so plenty has been explored and character arcs have been completed. The best stories have endings.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

It should go on as long as there are stories to tell and IMO there are plenty (most of them involving characters not named Goku).

[VegettoEX]

Something that grabbed me about manga/anime many eons ago was the fact that — in comparison to what I knew of American comics — there could be explicit beginnings and ends to these series, and that was more common than the opposite with Japanese series. I loved the idea that I could experience something in totality, its entirety, beginning to end, and be able to share that experience with people who (by its very nature as a consolidated product) would have an experience that mirrored that.

So you can understand my simultaneous frustration and excitement over the modern "expanded universe" of Dragon Ball. It was easy to write of things like Episode of Bardock and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans as promotional items, themselves made to supplement other supplemental material, inconsequential to the overall experience of the franchise. Watch 'em, don't, whatever, doesn't matter.

That got far more complicated with Battle of Gods... yet it was still OK, because it was so good. It's that classic, "I accept it because I like it!" situation. We all fall victim to it at some point in our lives.

It got more complicated with Resurrection 'F', for a variety of reasons.

It's infinitely more complicated with Dragon Ball Super, and for every reason under the sun (writing quality, authorial involvement, production issues, statements and effects it makes on older works, etc.) from both a "subjective" and "objective" standpoint (do these words even mean anything anymore?).

So again, you can understand my complicated feelings with Super. There are so many things I like about it, so many things I dislike about it, so many things I'm completely ambivalent about with regard to it, and yet... there it is. More stories with my favorite characters.

I think there's something really powerful to what Kunzait has mentioned elsewhere in terms of letting the series be itself, as a whole, complete, to represent what it is without further involvement. There is already so much to it, that not only did none of us "need" any "more" of it, but there was never an artistic "need" for it to continue. We know from countless primary sources how Toriyama had been looking for an "out" for years, so much of what DOES exist doesn't even represent the pure "this is the story I want to tell" emotion from the author. That's not to say that what we got isn't "good" and shouldn't be considered "part" of the "series", but it's worth acknowledging.

Dragon Ball as an original 519 (+extra) chapter series already stands alone and speaks for itself. That's meaningful. That's awesome. It left an impact, a mark, and inspired so many other people to do so many other things.

A continuation of that expands/extends that impact at best, and tarnishes it at worst. It appeals to your nostalgic emotions more so than anything else, because it's designed to. We don't need to and shouldn't live exclusively in nostalgia, stuck with the same stories and same characters and same situations; there's so much more to life.

Isn't that what Dragon Ball was telling us? There's more to life? There's always someone else out there? More adventures to be had? Let's go find them.*

*says the guy who's been running a Dragon Ball site for two decades

[Weejus]

Anything even remotely profitable will surely never end (unfortunately?). That's why you're getting new stuff tacked onto 'finished' properties like Star Wars and Harry Potter to this day, stories that had conclusions way back when, but their cash cows weren't yet dry. Dragon Ball could have died back in '97 when GT ended and the franchise was in a state of fatigue in Japan, but we all know what happened then.

As for my subjective taste, I sometimes think about the sheer scope of the story, especially going into Super. Dragon Ball, as a narrative, feels like something that had a defined ending that got completely demolished in favour of expanding the lore, and I don't find expanding the lore to be inherently good. I sometimes prefer there to be ambiguity and mystery (which is why I dislike Episode of Bardock and Dragon Ball Minus).

I think it was Hirohiko Araki (of JoJo fame) who expressed a similar concern about writing a story in which the characters got stronger and stronger to the point where he described it as 'thinking about the edges of the universe' or something. Comparing the 'power threshold' of something like the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai to the Universe Survival arc's tournament, the stakes have been raised so drastically that, could you even call it Dragon Ball anymore? How far can the writers go before it gets too big or too stale?

Of course, it's still possible to enjoy the source material as a self-contained work, so despite my waffling indicating that DB should have ended long ago, I guess the real answer is it doesn't matter as long as the original work that we love is unaltered (ignoring the kanzenban ending).

(EDIT: I thought I wrote an essay, then I see VegettoEX's post. )

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I think ending Goku's story at this point would be reasonable, I feel Super is squeezing whatever they can into a character arc that was done well, and in the Japanese version it is hard to imagine how anyone could ever replace Masako Nozawa.

If we're talking the franchise as a whole I say no, if the Dragon Ball Room can pump out quality stories for other characters and universes I'd gladly watch Dragon Ball carry on for years to come.

[sintzu]

Plenty has been explored and character arcs have been completed. The best stories have endings.

You could say this about the original DB, at the end of it everything was wrapped up so if it ended there then we wouldn't have gotten Z and its story so why put something 6ft under if it still has things to offer ?

Toriyama's new stories may have some issues but overall they've been pretty good and the current arc looks very promessing so if he and others have stories worth telling then why stop them ? I don't think it's smart to end something just to say it ended cause we could end up missing out on a lot of potentially good stories.

[ABED]

I read a comment in reference to Star Wars and applicable to DB where it essentially said that it's the new material that keeps the property alive and popular. That may be so, but I don't think DB or Star Wars or any good work would have any problem being popular or remembered if we never got new stories. Look at something like Jaws. Yeah, it had sequels, but they were terrible and forgetable. However, Jaws is and will always be popular. Will it be like it was at its peak? No, but it stands alone as this brilliant film that will reach generation after generation.

You could say this about the original DB, at the end of it everything was wrapped up so if it ended there then we wouldn't have gotten Z and its story so why put something 6ft under if it still has things to offer?

I get your point, but even if it did end with DB, I would've felt satisfied and we wouldn't have known about Z so there wouldn't be anything to miss. And considering that it went on for a few more years, I think there's plenty.

I don't think it's smart to end something just to say it ended

It's not ending for the sake of ending. It's ending to bring closure and a sense of completion to the story. Sure, you can tell more stories about damn near anything, but closure ideally gives the feeling that there was a point to it all instead of needlessly stretching things out.

[Weejus]

I read a comment in reference to Star Wars and applicable to DB where it essentially said that it's the new material that keeps the property alive and popular. That may be so, but I don't think DB or Star Wars or any good work would have any problem being popular or remembered if we never got new stories.

Not to be rude, but I think you've misinterpreted what I've said. I meant that an IP's profitability is what begets new material, not that new material keeps an IP alive. When I said 'Dragon Ball could have died in '97', I meant 'died' as in 'no more content produced' not 'IP is forgotten about for good'.

[sintzu]

I don't think DB or Star Wars or any good work would have any problem being popular or remembered if we never got new stories. Look at something like Jaws, it stands alone as this brilliant film that will reach generation after generation.

I get your point, but even if it did end with DB, I would've felt satisfied and we wouldn't have known about Z so there wouldn't be anything to miss.

It's ending to bring closure and a sense of completion to the story.

Jaws is a good example of something standing the test of time but without new content it can't make the $$$ that companies want from a franchise.

We probably would've been satisfied but we would've missed out on something really good. sure we wouldn't have known about it but it proves my point about ending something early when it can still offer good content.

We already have that, the original 520 chapters will always be one (or 2) completed stories with a clear beginning and clear ending. everything else including Super is just added content like star wars. you have the original trilogy of episodes 4,5&6 while everything else is just added on content. if it's good then great, we have more stories to watch, if not then oh well, the original will always be there as a completed work.

Comparing the 'power threshold' of something like the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai to the Universe Survival arc's tournament, the stakes have been raised so drastically that, could you even call it Dragon Ball anymore? How far can the writers go before it gets too big or too stale?

You could say that about the Buu arc as well, Tien was just some criminal while Buu was a bubble gum monster who blew up the planet.

[ABED]

I read a comment in reference to Star Wars and applicable to DB where it essentially said that it's the new material that keeps the property alive and popular. That may be so, but I don't think DB or Star Wars or any good work would have any problem being popular or remembered if we never got new stories.

Not to be rude, but I think you've misinterpreted what I've said. I meant that an IP's profitability is what begets new material, not that new material keeps an IP alive. When I said 'Dragon Ball could have died in '97', I meant 'died' as in 'no more content produced' not 'IP is forgotten about for good'.

If that was in fact you, sorry for misinterpreting it. I do think I have heard something like what I wrote, but probably from someone else. I can't keep track of it all.

Jaws is a good example of something standing the test of time but without new content it can't make the $$$ that companies want from a franchise.

I understand that, but I think there are things more important than continuing a franchise especially since you never know if something will continue to make money or if by continuing it, it will reach the point of diminishing marginal returns.

We probably would've been satisfied but we would've missed out on something really good. sure we wouldn't have known about it but that doesn't take away from my point about ending something early when it can still offer good content.

The only time I think of something ending "early" is if it feels too short, unsatisfying, and that usually is due to an abrupt ending often due to things like cancellations.

[Weejus]

Comparing the 'power threshold' of something like the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai to the Universe Survival arc's tournament, the stakes have been raised so drastically that, could you even call it Dragon Ball anymore? How far can the writers go before it gets too big or too stale?

You could say that about the Buu arc as well, Tien was just some criminal while Buu was a bubble gum monster who blew up the planet.

Yeah, fair point. I...don't really have a good counterargument. I would say something about Toriyama possibly being fed up by the point the Buu arc was ongoing, explaining all the bonkers stuff in that arc, but whatever.

Also, no worries, ABED.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I dunno. I really don't. Part of me thinks the people who made the series entertaining back in the day have moved on to other projects, retired, passed away or are now not that talented so maybe it should die, but then another part of me thinks there are these young guns who are just as talented and super awesome people that can tell entertaining stories, so maybe it should continue.

Then there's also anime/manga at the end of the day is a business and Dragon Ball is a successful property and only an idiot would end it and cause losses to themselves. It would be incredibly naive of me to ignore the business aspect.

I dunno is what I come back to. I'm not that impressed with modern Dragon Ball not cause its modern, but it's cause how much they rely on the same people who aren't any good and keep pushing the young generation to the sidelines or don't give them a chance. If that continues I would too want it to end, but there's always hope that somebody some fine day will give the franchise in the hands of the younger generation. There's still a lot of stories that can be told, but it needs the right people.

[Basaku]

I understand that, but I think there are things more important than continuing a franchise especially since you never know if something will continue to make money or if by continuing it, it will reach the point of diminishing marginal returns.

With a chance to bounce back big way. There would never be The Dark Knight without the disaster of Batman & Robin preceeding it. I don't really bother thinking whether the series should end or not because it won't, that's the bussiness reality. I focus on hoping for new stories to come down the line that will make everyone go "yeah this soooo worth continuing or even suffering through some subpar entries in the franchise"

[sintzu]

Yeah, fair point. I...don't really have a good counterargument. I would say something about Toriyama possibly being fed up by the point the Buu arc was ongoing, explaining all the bonkers stuff in that arc, but whatever.

You could tell from the rushed fights that he was tired of doing it but thankfully he managed to end it on a high note.

There would never be The Dark Knight without the disaster of Batman & Robin preceeding it.

This is such a great point. If WB just let the franchise end back then then this game changing movie wouldn't have ever happened.

If batman ended with bob kane back in the 50's or whenever he left then we wouldn't have gotten any of the great comics, games, movies, etc. that we have today. yeah it would've had an ending but we would've missed out on so much great content.

[ABED]

I understand that, but I think there are things more important than continuing a franchise especially since you never know if something will continue to make money or if by continuing it, it will reach the point of diminishing marginal returns.

With a chance to bounce back big way. There would never be The Dark Knight without the disaster of Batman & Robin preceeding it. I don't really bother thinking whether the series should end or not because it won't, that's the bussiness reality. I focus on hoping for new stories to come down the line that will make everyone go "yeah this soooo worth continuing or even suffering through some subpar entries in the franchise"

That's completely different. The Dark Knight Trilogy was a different continuity. It's not part of the same story. It's its own story. I'm more than fine with reboots and I like that TDK Trilogy has a beginning, middle, and end even though I do think that end could've been better. What we're talking about is stories with beginnings and a seemingly infinite middle. Bond would've been a far better example and even there it's not a great one since Bond films have a VERY loose chronology. They are mostly stand alone adventures with little connecting them besides the same characters. I guess I fall into the category Mike does. I much prefer stories have good endings, but if they do continue, at least be good.

And my two cents, I think Batman Begins is the best of the trilogy.

This is such a great point. If WB just let the franchise end back then then this game changing movie wouldn't have ever happened.

My counter argument is that treating it purely as a franchise is what lead to Batman & Robin.

[sintzu]

My counter argument is that treating it purely as a franchise is what lead to Batman & Robin.

This is true.

Toriyama is still its main writer so I don't think this will happen now but I'll be a bit worried once he leaves cause we all know they'll move on without him and we all know how that turned out last time they did it.

[TheMikado]

My opinion is to let the official serialized version end with grace and class like how we remember it.

Then if we want to do zany stuff and Toei additions then a separate series such as Dragonball Time Patrol/Xenoverse/Online can be made for that purpose.
I see no true need to continue the story in the main continuity.

[Draconic]

I really don't know. Depending on my mood I could probably go either way. However, I am one of the rarest cases around, since I believe if there was a place to end the series it should have been after the 23rd World Tournament. Sure, the impact Dragon Ball left on the manga/anime medium and even the world as a whole comes from the "Z" part of the story. Not to mention it's that part where the franchise was at it's financial peak or hell, the part where the series actually turned into a franchise. Yeah, we still got good stories and some probably better than before, but to me it does feel something was lost.

It's probably because growing up I began with the Dragon Ball anime, watched all of it, then only got around to see to about the Freeza arc. Only later did I get to explore the full story and seeing how much of it I missed out and how much was unfamiliar to me gave me a sentiment of being thrown out of the loop, a sentiment I seem to carry to this day. It's 100% subjective and it's one of the only things about the franchise that I can't pinpoint an objective reason for, so you won't see me debate anyone who thinks I'm wrong about this.

Thinking about it, I believe that's the reason why I don't really hate any part of the franchise. Sure I dislike some stuff and I'd probably never read or watch again, like some of the movies, big chuncks of GT, Kai, but getting to explore all of what is a big part of my childhood feels warranted. And so, the new material is the best thing I could ask for since for the first time I don't feel like missing out, but get to experience new stuff with people who also have no clue what's coming next, while before everything I could watch was wrapped nice and tidy with a ribbon on top and I was the only guy at the party who didn't get his hands in when the box was still open.

Sure, from an artistic and critical viewpoint the franchise should end at some point. Super should really be the last thing Toei makes for which they want to give any semblence of writing/animating merit. The story gets expanded and all, but it seems just to run from the blast radius of an internal implosion and while there is good and enjoyable stuff in the new material (better than a lot of what came before, actually) the soulessness of it all is kinda showing.

After Super ends, I'd probably get my fix on the whole missing out sentiment I have and it's already starting to fade pretty fast (as fast as 80 episodes in, but alas).

In that case I'd say that the best possible option would be to continue the franchise, since no one is going to stop a money train like Dragon Ball now that it's at high speed, but let the story end. Do a Heroes series, or a Xenoverse tie-in anime or something like that. Go full on commerical. The story would be closed, no need for revisiting. There is tons of stuff to be explored and mined in the existing material, even more once Super ends, so there's no need to dilute it further. Make your Super Saiyan 4 Kid Trunks toys, or Super Saiyan 5 Broly cards, but stop making it seem like it's coming from a desire to do something geniune with these characters, at least.

Let the story end, keep the franchise going, would be the gist of it.

[UltimateHammerBro]

Plenty has been explored and character arcs have been completed. The best stories have endings.

You could say this about the original DB, at the end of it everything was wrapped up so if it ended there then we wouldn't have gotten Z and its story so why put something 6ft under if it still has things to offer ?

Well, keeping in mind that the original manga never made a distinction between "DB" and "Z", the series could've been wrapped at several different points of the story, and we'd think everything was wrapped up. Heck, Goku's "I wanna become stronger!" attitude makes the story pretty easy to end with an open ending yet wrap everything up.

[Boo Machine]

I could definitely see doing spin offs or side stories. In that case I say continue.

But in the case of the main story of Goku and friends is where I am a bit iffy. I'm enjoying what we are currently getting for the most part, however at some point it should probably end. I just don't see how the story of Goku and friends can go on for another decade. Especially if they choose to stay in this time bubble Super is in.