Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[prince212]

The problem is Toyotaro not using the cast correctly and him showing needless favouritism to Vegeta to the point it hurts the narrative of the story.
So he is not being a smart writer or anything,he is a fan who became a manga author who follows Toriyama's outline while shoving as much fanservice for his favourite character when he can.

Well , it’s clear that you don’t like vegeta and toyotaro.
I don’t think the manga is diverging compare to the anime in terms of what you call fanservice or petting . Yes vegeta took a power up in chapter 27 sparring with Beerus , that power up seems to be the same he took in the anime that makes him eliminate Toppo .
Your complains about toyotaro fanservice towards vegeta are equal to my complains about Toei being vegeta fans because at the beginning of super they made a vegeta family chapter and manga didn’t (just kidding)
Toyotaros work is approved by Toriyama and some editors .
If you don’t like vegetas role in super , don’t personalize it in toyotaro ,because he’s not the first , neither the second that choose his performance in super

Nothing is wrong with Vegeta getting a new move,the problem is Vegeta getting a new move that is another generic ki blast that obliterates 2 opponents he could not 1vs1 a few seconds ago while battle damaged.

What’s that ?

[Bergamo]

Why is it that every scene with Vegeta in it is bad. Vegeta vs Beerus was awesome because it wasn't "Goku and Vegeta", but instead it was just The Prince by himself. It also establishes that Vegeta has Completed Blue, which makes him relevant in terms of power again.

[ToshioWrites]

> Complaining Bout gamma burst flash when Goku is about to fall ass first into power beyond every god of destruction.

“Oh I’m completely out of energy and this spirit bomb should kill me like it did Kid Buu “

“ oh look protagonist perks activate and now I can smack Beerus around “

[Whatever]

Well , it’s clear that you don’t like vegeta and toyotaro.

I like Vegeta,not Toyotaro's through.

If you don’t like vegetas role in super , don’t personalize it in toyotaro ,because he’s not the first , neither the second that choose his performance in super

Where did this all come from?I just said Toyotaro's favouritism hurts the narrative since he goes out of his way to bend the story so he could get a good showcase.

What’s that ?

Do you remember the Gamma Burst Flash where Vegeta is 1 shotting 2 Merged Zamasus while battle damaged?

[ToshioWrites]

Well , it’s clear that you don’t like vegeta and toyotaro.

I like Vegeta,not Toyotaro's through.

If you don’t like vegetas role in super , don’t personalize it in toyotaro ,because he’s not the first , neither the second that choose his performance in super

Where did this all come from?I just said Toyotaro's favouritism hurts the narrative since he goes out of his way to bend the story so he could get a good showcase.

What’s that ?

Do you remember the Gamma Burst Flash where Vegeta is 1 shotting 2 Merged Zamasus while battle damaged?

You do realize that Goku who spent the night before learning mafuba and not training completed the blue form which allowed him to fight equally with fused zamasu while Vegeta who trained in RoSAT for 6 months was left behind just because right ? Gamma burst flash isn’t the Hill you want to die on especially when a Goku who didn’t even train can just magically power up to fight a potara fusion

[Omniboy]

You do realize that Goku who spent the night before learning mafuba and not training completed the blue form which allowed him to fight equally with fused zamasu while Vegeta who trained in RoSAT for 6 months was left behind just because right ? Gamma burst flash isn’t the Hill you want to die on especially when a Goku who didn’t even train can just magically power up to fight a potara fusion

Well I wouldn't say that he just magically powered up. He likely had the form for a while even beforehand. He just never found a real scenario where he would have to use Mastered Super Saiyan Blue. It's kind of like Super Blue Kaioken, where Goku created a new power-up in secrecy while Vegeta did not know about it.

[ToshioWrites]

You do realize that Goku who spent the night before learning mafuba and not training completed the blue form which allowed him to fight equally with fused zamasu while Vegeta who trained in RoSAT for 6 months was left behind just because right ? Gamma burst flash isn’t the Hill you want to die on especially when a Goku who didn’t even train can just magically power up to fight a potara fusion

Well I wouldn't say that he just magically powered up. He likely had the form for a while even beforehand. He just never found a real scenario where he would have to use Mastered Super Saiyan Blue. It's kind of like Super Blue Kaioken, where Goku created a new power-up in secrecy while Vegeta did not know about it.

So Goku Black who the first time around destroyed ssb Vegeta wasn’t a real scenario? Fighting m zamasu before they fused into Vegito?


also people overrate gamma burst flash thing. m zamasu was only intended to be ssb Goku/Vegeta Level in power so Vegeta using all his power in one attack blowing up clones that easily regenerate isn’t some huge deal

[LightBing]

Toyotarõ gave Vegeta the Gamma burst - clearly an improvement of the Final Flash which was an improvement of the similar technique used against Recoome -, and he gave Goku Hakai. Hows that favoritism?

I frequently call out some of the similarities this arc has to the Cell Arc. This is close to Vegeta owing Second Form Cell and making Perfect Cell shit his pants with the Final Flash. Was Mr.Toriyama displaying his bias towards Vegeta here or you know it doesn't exist.

[prince212]

What’s that ?

Do you remember the Gamma Burst Flash where Vegeta is 1 shotting 2 Merged Zamasus while battle damaged?

Ah ok , thanks . Yes that was a great vegeta 1 page moment , for nothing , but great. Merges zamasus were just reborning and because of that and their immortality I don’t consider them to be at full will to avoid being obliterated , in fact they let that on purspose to show their immortality again and how useless was to attack them. They were joking around , if Goku and vegeta obliterated 20 of them is still not a big deal .
Btw it was nicer for me that many merge zamasus instead of that anime zamasu cloud

[Exline]

1-I wonder why you felt that,there is no sense of peril if the weakest of the team are knocked out.
2-They are different things but they go hand in hand most of the time,also a few examples where he did something different does not prove anything when the majority shows otherwise.
3-Barely?Him having a sparring match with Beerus forcing him to get serious that half of a chapter dedicated to it is something 'barely'?
4-Nothing is wrong with Vegeta getting a new move,the problem is Vegeta getting a new move that is another generic ki blast that obliterates 2 opponents he could not 1vs1 a few seconds ago while battle damaged.

1 - I felt tension because I was growing worried that U7 is actually in danger at the moment because their teammates are being eliminated very quickly. You only think about it in hindsight how useless Krillin and Tien would have been due to them being very weak in comparison to the Saiyans, but at the moment, you definitely fear for these characters and whether or not they could handle Frost's assault or not.

2 - What..? How does him doing something different with a character compared to the anime not prove anything..?

3 - The fight with Vegeta and Beerus I was referring to was the one in the first few chapters of the manga.. not the one where SSB Vegeta goes against Beerus. The one where Beerus slaps Bulma and Vegeta gets a rage boost. Fight surely doesn't last long and even Beerus himself gets bored of Vegeta.

4 - How exactly does Toyotaro use Vegeta in a way that hurts the narrative?..

Vegeta being said to be more powerful than Hit due to using Blue earlier doesn't exactly hurt Toyotaro's narrative. Just because Toei went a different route with Vegeta doesn't mean Toyotaro is placing favoritism over him. He already planned to establish Hit was not a formidable foe due to being restricted by his assassination techniques. It made Goku's forfeit feel much more honorable due to their setting limiting their battle.

Gamma Burst Flash was a powerful new move that lead to Zamasu being left in pieces and regenerating into more clones of himself. That's what made the climax of the arc so intense.
Why is it bad to see our main characters demonstrate how powerful they are? Why do we always need to see them suffer so much before finishing the blow with an asspull attack? Don't people hate stuff like that sometimes?

I like the approach Toyotaro is taking by making the main character more formidable instead of constantly struggling to handle their enemies. We don't see much of that anymore.

-The problem is Toyotaro not using the cast correctly and him showing needless favouritism to Vegeta to the point it hurts the narrative of the story.
So he is not being a smart writer or anything,he is a fan who became a manga author who follows Toriyama's outline while shoving as much fanservice for his favourite character when he can.

Prince212 summed it best for me. You're pretty much claiming you don't like the way the writer is using characters is he in control of because they don't cater to you.

[Omniboy]

So Goku Black who the first time around destroyed ssb Vegeta wasn’t a real scenario? Fighting m zamasu before they fused into Vegito?
also people overrate gamma burst flash thing. m zamasu was only intended to be ssb Goku/Vegeta Level in power so Vegeta using all his power in one attack blowing up clones that easily regenerate isn’t some huge deal

Well first time when Vegeta fought Black, they were doing the same one-on-one thing that usually do. And Vegeta wanted to take on Goku Black by himself.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And I don't know if Goku would want to interrupt Vegeta's fight. Especially when Vegeta's desire to fight him is partly revenge for Black terrorizing his son. Then Zamasu showed up, who Goku fought while Vegeta took on Black. I don't know if Goku would waste a large amount of ki taking on someone, who likely can barely handle him as a Super Saiyan. Plus Goku in the anime didn't use Super Saiyan Blue kaioken, which is similar to master blue in that it uses up a lot of energy and harms his body in the process. He only uses both ki draining forms in both mediums for Merged Zamasu later on in the story after they fuse. In which, considering your second point, he was likely going to use Mastered Blue after he ate a senzu bean, before Vegeta interrupted him, and said that he wanted to fuse. I kind of figured that since, their plan is really just to hold Zamasu off until he defuses, that it would be in their best interest to hold him off without exerting a large amount of energy, which Mastered Blue does. So then Goku avoided doing it for the first half, but then found the situation quite hopeless and was going to power-up after he healed himself.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

But then again, maybe I am wrong on that last part, and he wasn't going to use Mastered Blue after eating that senzu bean. I dunno. Part of that is just kind of assumption.

[OLKv3]

You do realize that Goku who spent the night before learning mafuba and not training completed the blue form which allowed him to fight equally with fused zamasu while Vegeta who trained in RoSAT for 6 months was left behind just because right ? Gamma burst flash isn’t the Hill you want to die on especially when a Goku who didn’t even train can just magically power up to fight a potara fusion

Well I wouldn't say that he just magically powered up. He likely had the form for a while even beforehand. He just never found a real scenario where he would have to use Mastered Super Saiyan Blue. It's kind of like Super Blue Kaioken, where Goku created a new power-up in secrecy while Vegeta did not know about it.

So Goku Black who the first time around destroyed ssb Vegeta wasn’t a real scenario? Fighting m zamasu before they fused into Vegito?


also people overrate gamma burst flash thing. m zamasu was only intended to be ssb Goku/Vegeta Level in power so Vegeta using all his power in one attack blowing up clones that easily regenerate isn’t some huge deal

Goku got beat up by Zamasu so he couldn't help Vegeta against Black. Remember?

[Zephyr]

It makes no sense how anyone can say the manga has better storytelling than the anime, especially when it comes to the horrible changes Toyotaro made to the Black arc and the reduced focus on the supporting cast compare the anime version.

And Vegeta's new form was explained in the ToP. It was him breaking his limits in similar manner as Goku did according to Whis.

The manga does a better job with Jiren I'll give it that, but the manga version of the ToP is already looking worse than the anime, especially with how Toyotaro fails to give spotlight to much of the other combatants of the ToP compared to the anime and makes them look even less of a threat.

I mean.....I already went into excruciating detail to explain how the anime's storytelling is pretty awful to me, in this last arc alone, so I'm not sure how to address your inability to process such an opinion without just mindlessly repeating myself. I'm not sure which "horrible changes" to the Black arc you could be thinking of, besides Black no longer being a smug meme machine. Like, I love that bit about anime Black, but it's not anything essential for the overall narrative to flow the way it needs to, so its omission (if it can even be called that) doesn't really count as a "horrible change", to me, and I'm unsure how it's supposed to. And if there's something else (like, "oh no, that bastard Toyotaro removed that stupid grandfather paradox from Black's origins, and now it's actually coherent!"), then I'm all ears.

It doesn't terribly matter to me if Vegeta's new form is explained or not. It serves no narrative purpose. It just adds more visual flair. It just gives Vegeta an opportunity to monologue and preach about how much he cares about others, and how that gives him strength now. Not only is that a stilted and awkward way of delivering that information, but it's also old information. Welcome to 2013! So much for using new forms to elucidate character traits, like the original manga did. And on top of acting purely in service of redundant character beats, there was also no build up for it. We didn't go through this arc anticipating Blue to evolve. Hell, in the manga, Blue already evolved an arc prior, and it did so by Goku figuring out a solution to a glaring flaw it had two arcs prior (that the anime didn't ever introduce). And come on. Let's not pretend that "breaking one's limits" is some sweet new concept in this series. That's as generic, stale, uncreative, and by the numbers of an explanation as they come.

Most of those other combatants weren't a threat though, and they didn't serve much of a role in telling the story that was told. I'm glad that time isn't being wasted on them. And, honestly, I really like Tenshinhan, and would have loved to see him mix and match some of his crazy techniques with some others that he'd yet to use (making the Dodonpa sharper? Stacking his split body technique with Kaioken?), but if you're implying character cheerleading, like, "my boy deserved a good showing!", like this is some sporting event and you're rooting for your favorite athlete, rather than actually consuming this like a story, then you've lost me.

Characters existing doesn't mean that they have to shine, or be given focus. Not every single individual person is at the forefront of every story to be told. When I'm telling my friends about something that happened to me at the store, I'm not going to spotlight literally every person who was there, because not everyone is relevant to the big major important thing that ended up happening to me while I was there. It's a story about me, and what happened to me, and how it changed me. Not everyone played a role in that. Some people were in the background. If I got robbed by some dude while I was there, I don't need to spend 10 minutes of the story explaining what my dumb kid brother was doing at school while it was going on, or what was going through the mind of some old lady who literally contributed nothing to my newfound fear of going outside. If characters like Krillin and Tenshinhan and all of these other dudes from other universes aren't terribly relevant to Goku reaching a new milestone in his training with Whis, or Freeza, #17, and Jiren slowly learning the value of camaraderie, then they warrant a background tertiary role in the story. They don't warrant episodic spotlights. That just bogs the story down, makes it needlessly fluffy and tedious to slog through, and makes me pine for a shorter version.

Making a character completely useless just to build tension is simply bad writing.

Can you explain why you find that to be bad writing?

So you would dismiss everything that makes a story aesthetically engaging just for a more structured narrative? That has extremely bad taste written all over it. Characters are what carry a story. When you devalue the characters you devalue the story. Giving the characters more development and interactions increases the quality of the work in general, which is why the anime version of the Black arc is vastly superior to its manga version for example and modern dramas like Game of Thones and Breaking Bad are so appealing

And whats with all these ridiculous complaints about characters "regressing" in the anime? Characters doing what they normally do isn't "regression", that's just consistent writing. And just because a character doesn't "change" doesn't mean they don't develop.

What does it mean for a story to be "aesthetically engaging"? How is that different or distinct from a more structured narrative? And if it's indeed different, how is it better?

You seem to believe that a character's "value" is determined by how active and competent they are. Why is that the be all end all? Why can't a character be valuable to the telling of a story because they help to elucidate something new about a different, more important character, or provide the impetus for them changing in some way? Why can their incompetence or inactivity not be an acceptable source of conflict? If I were to tell a story about how my incompetent, lazy, alcoholic mother drove me to depression, and how I slowly dug myself out of the depressive rut, then my mother, as a character, is actually incredibly valuable to this story. If I were to tell a story about how I went to prison for running someone over and killing them, and I slowly worked my way up the ranks of some gang, then the dude I ran over would be incredibly useful to the story, despite not amounting to anything by himself, and being killed off immediately.

I'm not sure what kind of actual substance "interactions" are supposed to really add. Let's assume two people who had never talked before have a conversation for the first time, they interact......but it doesn't amount to anything, it doesn't provide any conflict, they don't act any differently than they did before, and there's nothing new revealed about them by this exchange. But since they got to banter and exchange catch-phrases, that somehow elevates the work? I'm not following. That just seems like you're thirsty for shallow fanservice, for the sheer novelty of characters doing things with other characters for the first time, regardless of what comes from it.

If character development isn't change, then what is it?

[Exline]

[spoiler]Why does anyone bother replying to people who can only explain things in an uncivilized manner?
I don't to want to point fingers at anyone, but replying to those certain people seems like a massive waste of time, especially when you try to go really in depth in explaining to them when they won't bother to read what you wrote. They'll eventually get banned temporarily or permanently in the long run. Hopefully that isn't me being cynical/negative towards others, but it probably is .[/spoiler]

On topic though,

Did anyone enjoy certain arcs more in one media than the other? And if so, why? What could the other version have done to make it better?

Like I prefer the Future Trunks Arc in the Manga compared to the anime.
I thought the story was more cohesive and structured very well. Some key moments really got me excited in the manga. Such as the transition between finding out Zamasu's true colors in the past, only to be HAKAI'd afterwards by Beerus, and then witnessing Zamasu in the future working alongside Black still. As well as Trunks and Mai stalling for Goku and Vegeta to return, and then having Supreme Kai become useful and assist the future warriors.

However, I enjoy the anime's portrayal of Black and Zamasu much more. Their personalities are much more intriguing in the anime compared to the manga. Trunks also gets much more spotlight in the anime which he did not get enough of in the manga version. The interactions between Kid Trunks and Future Trunks was a delight to see, especially K Trunks trying to motivate F Trunks to fight.

But I happen to have more issues with the anime's telling of the story compared to the manga.
Gowasu and Shin seem so useless and act as a side characters in the anime. Trunks getting a new unexplained transformation was even worse to witness, as well as his new techniques that only seem to be part of Vegeta's arsenal. Him using Galick Gun and Final Flash really takes away the impact those techniques had when they were first shown. Same with the Kamehameha where everyone is using it to the point where it can just be spammed. I am fine with him mimicking the Mafuuba like Tenshinhan, but the way he learns it is honestly ridiculous. The abrupt ending where Zamasu fuses with the universe seems so out of place and awkward to me.


Anybody care to share which arcs they prefer between the Manga vs. Anime?

[The gr]

The problem is Toyotaro not using the cast correctly and him showing needless favouritism to Vegeta to the point it hurts the narrative of the story.
So he is not being a smart writer or anything,he is a fan who became a manga author who follows Toriyama's outline while shoving as much fanservice for his favourite character when he can.

This is nonesense, toyotaro does give screentime to other characters like the androids,Frieza, Piccolo I mean he did defeat Bergamo,Gohan was also cool in his debut chapter and Roshi have been handled really good right now in spite of not landing punches for now, I will be Shocked if he get the same threatment as the other earthlings.

Heck some of the new character also get good threatment like The Hakaishin,Cabba,Gowasu,Frost and Toppo.

[sintzu]

The problem is Toyotaro not using the cast correctly and him showing needless favouritism to Vegeta to the point it hurts the narrative of the story.

What about the anime's staff showing favoritism to Trunks ? that hurt the anime's narrative way more than Vegeta ever did in the manga. Yeah Vegeta got Black to himself compared to the anime but Goku on the other hand got fused Zamasu mostly to himself as well.

In terms of the cast, that's not entirly Toyotarou's fault as Toriyama isn't doing much with them.

[Whatever]

2 - What..? How does him doing something different with a character compared to the anime not prove anything..?

I think you need to really read my words more carefully since you keep misunderstanding them,i was talking about Toyotaro in general and not in comparrison to the anime.

Vegeta being said to be more powerful than Hit due to using Blue earlier doesn't exactly hurt Toyotaro's narrative.

Yes it does,the whole point of the tournament is to fight strong opponents and to keep the reocurring them of dragonball that there always someone stronger.
Having the strongest person of U6 weaker than not just Goku but Vegeta and making up a new rule for ssjb just to treat Vegeta's defeat with kid gloves is hurting the narrative.

Just because Toei went a different route with Vegeta doesn't mean Toyotaro is placing favoritism over him. He already planned to establish Hit was not a formidable foe due to being restricted by his assassination techniques. It made Goku's forfeit feel much more honorable due to their setting limiting their battle

Its pretty clear that Toriyama's outline had Goku being 10 times stronger than Vegeta in both outlines(since that part is present in both versions),so Toyotaro went out of his way to pander to Vegeta and make up as much excuses as possible to make his defeat not clean.

Gamma Burst Flash was a powerful new move that lead to Zamasu being left in pieces and regenerating into more clones of himself. That's what made the climax of the arc so intense.
Why is it bad to see our main characters demonstrate how powerful they are? Why do we always need to see them suffer so much before finishing the blow with an asspull attack? Don't people hate stuff like that sometimes?

Gamma Burst Flash is a normal ki blast,Vegeta is weaker than Goku and he was battle damaged,MSSJB Goku could barely handle 1 Merged Zamasu and Vegeta evaporated 2 Merged Zamasus.you really don't see the problem with the result?

Prince212 summed it best for me. You're pretty much claiming you don't like the way the writer is using characters is he in control of because they don't cater to you.

You really need to stop making such accusations,i don't care about most characters,him making good use of his current cast is basic stuff.
Because i could really start the same thing and say you like the way the writer is using characters because they cater to you,but that won't lead anywhere won't it?

What about the anime's staff showing favoritism to Trunks ? that hurt the anime's narrative way more than Vegeta ever did in the manga. Yeah Vegeta got Black to himself compared to the anime but Goku on the other hand got fused Zamasu mostly to himself as well.

The whole arc is because of Future Trunks,its his world thats in danger and he is the one who will have to deal with the consequences in the end.
While the way they went with powering up Trunks was bad,him getting the spotlight in an arc all about him is not and even with Trunk's asspulls they still managed to make Goku Black and Zamasu formiddable.
Goku Black was a scrub in the manga since not only did Vegeta beat him twice but he got under his skin easily most of the time,heck Toyotaro even pushed Vegeta to the forefront even more with the Garma Burst Flash thing,despite making Spirit Sword Trunks level of sense.
I think you can agree that the story of the Future Trunks arc revolves around Future Trunks,Zamasu,Goku Black and to a lesser extent Goku,Vegeta has no connection at all with the villians and he is just along for the ride.
Giving a character so disconnected from the storyline the most spotlight kinda makes story suffer from it,we shouldn't be aiming for Gohan vs Cell levels of bad storytelling,should we?
The reason the Buu saga felt fitting having Goku and Vegeta ending Buu was because they were the reason Buu was released to begin with,so they were connected to the villain and the core of the story.

In terms of the cast, that's not entirly Toyotarou's fault as Toriyama isn't doing much with them.

Thats true but it does not mean much when Toyotaro is not interested at all in making good use of the cast anyway,he is for Goku and mostly Vegeta.

[Spider-Man]

In terms of the cast, that's not entirly Toyotarou's fault as Toriyama isn't doing much with them.

Thats true but it does not mean much when Toyotaro is not interested at all in making good use of the cast anyway,he is for Goku and mostly Vegeta.

If that was the case then we could have Goku vs Frieza for an entire chapter but Toyotaro dedicated that to Cabba or when the Top started,he gave screentime to other U7 members that aren't Goku and Vegeta recently,is certainly an improvement over the Joke that was the U6 tournament in terms of cast usage.

But he did screwed Tien and Krillin which I thought the anime did it better.

[Bergamo]

In terms of the cast, that's not entirly Toyotarou's fault as Toriyama isn't doing much with them.

Thats true but it does not mean much when Toyotaro is not interested at all in making good use of the cast anyway,he is for Goku and mostly Vegeta.

If that was the case then we could have Goku vs Frieza for an entire chapter but Toyotaro dedicated that to Cabba or when the Top started,he gave screentime to other U7 members that aren't Goku and Vegeta recently,is certainly an improvement over the Joke that was the U6 tournament in terms of cast usage.

But he did screwed Tien and Krillin which I thought the anime did it better.

How were Krillin and Tien screwed over? They got eliminated, but we always knew that they were going to be eliminated early on. I don't think it was any better having Tien double eliminate with fodder character #11.

[Spider-Man]

How were Krillin and Tien screwed over? They got eliminated, but we always knew that they were going to be eliminated early on. I don't think it was any better having Tien double eliminate with fodder character #11.

It would have been awesome if Gohan squad take out Magetta or Botamo as a team then I won't be as mad when they got one shotted.