In-Universe vs. Real World Explanation

[ABED]

Any time I discuss the issue of Super Saiyan 3 being a retcon I invariably get the response, "I'm talking in-universe". However, sometimes there is no in-universe explanation that sufficiently explains away something like that. I see it all the time on TV shows where real world issues like actor availability plays into the writing and there's no good in-universe explanation that can be given.

Any thoughts?

[TheMikado]

Any time I discuss the issue of Super Saiyan 3 being a retcon I invariably get the response, "I'm talking in-universe". However, sometimes there is no in-universe explanation that sufficiently explains away something like that. I see it all the time on TV shows where real world issues like actor availability plays into the writing and there's no good in-universe explanation that can be given.

Any thoughts?

I've always looked at the SSJ3 "issue" exactly the same. When looking at it I say what are the in-universe options?

Well looking at the context. Vegeta was already possessed by Babidi due to the evil in his heart. The primary reason for this was Vegeta's rivalry with Goku and Goku surpassing him.
So much to the extent that he willingly allowed himself to be possessed just to catch up to Goku.

Detective Goku figures this out... Because he was actually somewhat sharp back then.
Vegeta wanted to fight Goku so badly that he willingly started murdering people.
But they are also in a crisis where they need all the help they can possibly get.
What are Goku's options?

Oblige Vegeta long enough to try to get back to handling the immediate situation with Vegeta's help?
Knock Vegeta out as SSJ3 and try to take out Babidi quickly?

Least talk about how he would have faired in both situations.

Goku goes SSJ3, ends it quickly by either 1) Knocking Vegeta out 2) Killing Vegeta
Knocking out Vegeta, saves the day by stopping Babidi and Dabura. Assuming he manages to even do these things with his limited time and energy, Goku still ended up back in otherworld unable to do anything else.
Vegeta wakes up. STILL MAJIN EVIL AS HELL, but now twice as pissed.. Starts slaughtering people around the world egging Goku to come back. No one is powerful enough to stop Vegeta except Goku, but his decision basically just left everyone to fend for themselves with Evil Majin Vegeta running a muck.

Oh Well, guess Goku needs to just straight up kill Vegeta instead. Nevermind that he's the husband of Goku's oldest friend and the father of his son's best friend. Anyway same scenario happens, Goku disappears. What happens to Bulma and Trunks? Bulma may not be so bad, but we've seen Trunks at that age making morally questionable decisions. Does Trunks go bad now seeking revenge? (A cool concept though)

Either way embarrassing and or killing Vegeta creates more problems than it solves then simply trying to oblige and reason with Vegeta. Its the same thing most people would try to do.
Goku even as prior to and during the fight tries to de-escalate things. He specifically says they should stop fighting and work together to defeat Buu and Babidi, and to be honest his persuasion tactics almost work with the exception that Vegeta is an @$$hole and wants to fight all by himself. I would say the only and best thing Goku should have done is say, "Vegeta, I will let you get first dibs on taking out Buu and Babidi and I will sit it out and watch. Then we can go back at it." Knowing Vegeta and his pride issues he would love the chance to show Goku "how its done".

Anyway there were WAAAAYYYY better solutions than Goku just going straight up SSJ3 in-universe. It wouldn't be the first time Goku plays psychological games with his opponents in battle.

[Dorexx]

There is always an in-universe answer, even when there isn't an official one. In such a case, you're supposed to use your imagination and find it yourself.

If you can't think of a good in-universe explanation all it means is that you can't think of a good in-universe explanation.

[ekrolo2]

There is always an in-universe answer, even when there isn't an official one. In such a case, you're supposed to use your imagination and find it yourself.

If you can't think of a good in-universe explanation all it means is that you can't think of a good in-universe explanation.

I can kind of accept this to a point but when something doesn't work, there is no elaborate explanation there to make it work, only to explain why & how it doesn't and the SS3 thing is a good example.

Goku tells Vegeta he'll stomp him at maximum power to prevent from giving Babidi damage and he does so, by using SS2 which doesn't make sense as Toriyama retroactively includes SS3 into his repertoire of abilities. Goku doesn't care about Vegeta's pride and wants to pragmatically end things for once and doesn't because..... Toriyama didn't have SS3 in mind when he wrote that fight.

[ABED]

There is always an in-universe answer, even when there isn't an official one. In such a case, you're supposed to use your imagination and find it yourself.

If you can't think of a good in-universe explanation all it means is that you can't think of a good in-universe explanation.

Sometimes there isn't any good one because it's out of character.

[TheMikado]

There is always an in-universe answer, even when there isn't an official one. In such a case, you're supposed to use your imagination and find it yourself.

If you can't think of a good in-universe explanation all it means is that you can't think of a good in-universe explanation.

I can kind of accept this to a point but when something doesn't work, there is no elaborate explanation there to make it work, only to explain why & how it doesn't and the SS3 thing is a good example.

Goku tells Vegeta he'll stomp him at maximum power to prevent from giving Babidi damage and he does so, by using SS2 which doesn't make sense as Toriyama retroactively includes SS3 into his repertoire of abilities. Goku doesn't care about Vegeta's pride and wants to pragmatically end things for once and doesn't because..... Toriyama didn't have SS3 in mind when he wrote that fight.

Ok after Goku sits here and listens to these two speeches why in the world would he further provoke Vegeta???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4dROKCYJS8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylCkQCTqVRQ

Goku pieces together that Vegeta allowed himself to go evil and possessed by Babidi just to get more powerful.
And then Vegeta specifically says he needed to go evil and cold blooded because Goku kept surpassing him.
Goku was smart enough to piece it all together even when Gohan hadn't yet, further Vegeta straight up tells him I'm going to be evil because you keep getting stronger than me.

Goku isn't an idiot, if he surpasses him yet again what in the world do you think Vegeta will do??
Even is SSJ3 was pulled out of nowhere later it still fits in this narratively in the context of what is provoking Vegeta in the first place. Goku's goal is to defuse Vegeta and get him to help with Buu, not beat him.
Confusing Goku's goals is what causes the rift understanding the actions. Goku actions were clear and he made clear priorites. Dealing with and defusing Vegeta was primary because he was an immediate threat. Buu, a being he had never dealt with before but so far nothing they faced was a big deal, was secondary. Majin Vegeta was the biggest immediate threat power-wise and Goku choose to attempt to defuse it.

[Doctor.]

There is always an in-universe answer, even when there isn't an official one. In such a case, you're supposed to use your imagination and find it yourself.

If you can't think of a good in-universe explanation all it means is that you can't think of a good in-universe explanation.

"You should justify the author's mistakes when the author can't be bothered to do it himself."

This is basically what you're saying.

[Lord Beerus]

There is always an in-universe answer, even when there isn't an official one. In such a case, you're supposed to use your imagination and find it yourself.

If you can't think of a good in-universe explanation all it means is that you can't think of a good in-universe explanation.

I can kind of accept this to a point but when something doesn't work, there is no elaborate explanation there to make it work, only to explain why & how it doesn't and the SS3 thing is a good example.

Goku tells Vegeta he'll stomp him at maximum power to prevent from giving Babidi damage and he does so, by using SS2 which doesn't make sense as Toriyama retroactively includes SS3 into his repertoire of abilities. Goku doesn't care about Vegeta's pride and wants to pragmatically end things for once and doesn't because..... Toriyama didn't have SS3 in mind when he wrote that fight.

Ok after Goku sits here and listens to these two speeches why in the world would he further provoke Vegeta???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4dROKCYJS8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylCkQCTqVRQ

Goku pieces together that Vegeta allowed himself to go evil and possessed by Babidi just to get more powerful.
And then Vegeta specifically says he needed to go evil and cold blooded because Goku kept surpassing him.
Goku was smart enough to piece it all together even when Gohan hadn't yet, further Vegeta straight up tells him I'm going to be evil because you keep getting stronger than me.

Goku isn't an idiot, if he surpasses him yet again what in the world do you think Vegeta will do??
Even is SSJ3 was pulled out of nowhere later it still fits in this narratively in the context of what is provoking Vegeta in the first place. Goku's goal is to defuse Vegeta and get him to help with Buu, not beat him.
Confusing Goku's goals is what causes the rift understanding the actions. Goku actions were clear and he made clear priorites. Dealing with and defusing Vegeta was primary because he was an immediate threat. Buu, a being he had never dealt with before but so far nothing they faced was a big deal, was secondary. Majin Vegeta was the biggest immediate threat power-wise and Goku choose to attempt to defuse it.

Your concept of Vegeta getting madder and going off the deep end even harder if Goku used SSJ3 against him would have so foundation... if not for this:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
Goku did not give a flying fuck about what Vegeta felt. He just felt the need to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket because he felt he needed it later. And that excuse itself is nonsense. SSJ3 is a monster asspull. And this day, it's still a mystery on how you actually achieve the form.

[sintzu]

Vegeta calls him out on it and Goku says he didn't use it because it would've taken up his time on earth so that's the in-universe explanation.

Real world, it's hard to tell. Maybe Toriyama had the same ideas that TheMikado has, maybe he did have 3 planned out and what Goku said to him is the real reason he didn't use it or maybe he didn't think of 3 yet which I doubt cause the events were close together.

[ABED]

Vegeta calls him out on it and Goku says he didn't use it because it would've taken up his time on earth so that's the in-universe explanation.

Real world, it's hard to tell. Maybe Toriyama had the same ideas that TheMikado has, maybe he did have 3 planned out and what Goku said to him is the real reason he didn't use it or maybe he didn't think of 3 yet which I doubt cause the events were close together.

But it's not a good one. What would he use that time for? Stopping Majin Buu's resurrection. Stopping Babidi's plan would be far easier and less time consuming by using Super Saiyan 3.

[Zephyr]

Goku definitely should have just gone Super Saiyan 3 and taken Vegeta out then and there. Goku's on good terms with much of the overseeing bureaucracy of the afterlife. Once he knocks Vegeta out with a single chop, he can probably convince someone to let Vegeta spend some time in the afterlife to duke it out with Goku. Goku would still win, because Super Saiyan 3, and then he can tell Vegeta to train more, or something.

Does the fact that Goku didn't do this make him "out of character"? I don't see how. It was a tough situation, and Goku had to juggle his priorities. I'm sure Goku wanted an even fight with Vegeta, rather than just taking him out in one hit. He's not psychic, and he couldn't have seen exactly how the arc would end up going. The fact that Goku didn't entirely prioritize stopping the bad guy from getting out is actually pretty in-character. I'd like to think that (in-universe), had Vegeta not eventually agreed to postpone the fight, or had gotten a serious edge over Goku, that he would have gone Super Saiyan 3 anyway.

[ABED]

Goku wanted an even fight with Vegeta, rather than just taking him out in one hit.

But it's not an even fight. He's holding back. Goku doesn't love an even fight, he loves a challenge and Vegeta's not a challenge to him. Not to mention by having him able to turn SS3, Goku lies to Piccolo. Goku doesn't lie. In fact, he's blunt with his friends. And while we've seen Goku let the bad guy go, it's to fight them again. It's not so others can clean up his mess.

[sintzu]

But it's not a good one.

It being good or not is up to the viewer, the main thing is that he gave a reason to why it wasn't used.

[ABED]

But it's not a good one.

It being good or not is up to the viewer, the main thing is that he gave a reason to why it wasn't used.

Sometimes, but when the lack of logic is staring you right in the face...

Think about it. If Goku is saving the form just in case, what is that just in case? Buu! Here's the perfect opportunity to stop Buu. By taking out Vegeta in one fell swoop, then it's a great use of the reduced time limit.

[ekrolo2]

Goku definitely should have just gone Super Saiyan 3 and taken Vegeta out then and there. Goku's on good terms with much of the overseeing bureaucracy of the afterlife. Once he knocks Vegeta out with a single chop, he can probably convince someone to let Vegeta spend some time in the afterlife to duke it out with Goku. Goku would still win, because Super Saiyan 3, and then he can tell Vegeta to train more, or something.

Does the fact that Goku didn't do this make him "out of character"? I don't see how. It was a tough situation, and Goku had to juggle his priorities. I'm sure Goku wanted an even fight with Vegeta, rather than just taking him out in one hit. He's not psychic, and he couldn't have seen exactly how the arc would end up going. The fact that Goku didn't entirely prioritize stopping the bad guy from getting out is actually pretty in-character. I'd like to think that (in-universe), had Vegeta not eventually agreed to postpone the fight, or had gotten a serious edge over Goku, that he would have gone Super Saiyan 3 anyway.

Goku didn't want an evenfight, he uses SS2 immediately (his then maximum) so he can stomp Vegeta and prevent Boo from hatching. Goku is going into this fight with the express purpose of pragmatically ending it before it can go wrong, NOT to satisfy his fighting boner.

[TheMikado]

But it's not a good one.

It being good or not is up to the viewer, the main thing is that he gave a reason to why it wasn't used.

Sometimes, but when the lack of logic is staring you right in the face...

Think about it. If Goku is saving the form just in case, what is that just in case? Buu! Here's the perfect opportunity to stop Buu. By taking out Vegeta in one fell swoop, then it's a great use of the reduced time limit.

Well, considering they just had a bunch of unforeseen enemies and circumstances pop up, I don't see how this is a bad idea. Let's say he goes SSJ3 but it ends up draining his time to the point where he disappears. Maybe Vegeta gets a further mutates rage boost after seeing Goku go SSJ3 and now the fights not so easy, in addition Goku's gonna be gone soon and a SSJ3 level raging Majin Vegeta is now running around on Earth.

Look its pretty easy to say Goku should have just went SSJ3 and offed him, but I feel like that hasn't been thought through nearly enough. Goku kills Vegeta, goes looking for Babidi. Babidi, who has been listening this whole time knows he just needs to go into hiding using his magic for 24 hours. He's obviously done it before otherwise Kaioshin would have found him. Now we're left with no Goku, no Vegeta. The only way to ensure the future was to keep the strongest of them on their side so Babidi couldnt come back and pull this again when Goku isn't around. The best option was to get Vegeta, as the strongest living person on Earth to be on his side so someone is around to stop Babidi in the future. Vegeta was literally the biggest threat at the point Goku was making the judgement call. The only context Goku has are these "incredibly strong" guys that Babidi has and kaioshin's word who is repeatedly shocked by how strong they are. In Goku's mind evil Vegeta is a bigger priority and danger at the moment, and he is.

Getting Vegeta back on Goku's side was the highest priority and I agree with that.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku definitely should have just gone Super Saiyan 3 and taken Vegeta out then and there. Goku's on good terms with much of the overseeing bureaucracy of the afterlife. Once he knocks Vegeta out with a single chop, he can probably convince someone to let Vegeta spend some time in the afterlife to duke it out with Goku. Goku would still win, because Super Saiyan 3, and then he can tell Vegeta to train more, or something.

Does the fact that Goku didn't do this make him "out of character"? I don't see how. It was a tough situation, and Goku had to juggle his priorities. I'm sure Goku wanted an even fight with Vegeta, rather than just taking him out in one hit. He's not psychic, and he couldn't have seen exactly how the arc would end up going. The fact that Goku didn't entirely prioritize stopping the bad guy from getting out is actually pretty in-character. I'd like to think that (in-universe), had Vegeta not eventually agreed to postpone the fight, or had gotten a serious edge over Goku, that he would have gone Super Saiyan 3 anyway.

Goku didn't want an evenfight, he uses SS2 immediately (his then maximum) so he can stomp Vegeta and prevent Boo from hatching. Goku is going into this fight with the express purpose of pragmatically ending it before it can go wrong, NOT to satisfy his fighting boner.

I don't know he did have shit eating grin on his face when he and Vegeta fought:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
But on a serious note... what's even worse about the whole fiasco is that when Vegeta powers up into a SSJ2, Goku notes that he realises he won't be able to end the fight as quickly as he originally hoped.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
So it just makes the fact of Goku not using SSJ3 is even bigger dickhead move. Goku's grasp of the entire scenario was so off-target.

[ekrolo2]

Goku definitely should have just gone Super Saiyan 3 and taken Vegeta out then and there. Goku's on good terms with much of the overseeing bureaucracy of the afterlife. Once he knocks Vegeta out with a single chop, he can probably convince someone to let Vegeta spend some time in the afterlife to duke it out with Goku. Goku would still win, because Super Saiyan 3, and then he can tell Vegeta to train more, or something.

Does the fact that Goku didn't do this make him "out of character"? I don't see how. It was a tough situation, and Goku had to juggle his priorities. I'm sure Goku wanted an even fight with Vegeta, rather than just taking him out in one hit. He's not psychic, and he couldn't have seen exactly how the arc would end up going. The fact that Goku didn't entirely prioritize stopping the bad guy from getting out is actually pretty in-character. I'd like to think that (in-universe), had Vegeta not eventually agreed to postpone the fight, or had gotten a serious edge over Goku, that he would have gone Super Saiyan 3 anyway.

Goku didn't want an evenfight, he uses SS2 immediately (his then maximum) so he can stomp Vegeta and prevent Boo from hatching. Goku is going into this fight with the express purpose of pragmatically ending it before it can go wrong, NOT to satisfy his fighting boner.

I don't know he did have shit eating grin on his face when he and Vegeta fought:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
But on a serious note... what's even worse about the whole fiasco is that when Vegeta powers up into a SSJ2, Goku notes that he realises he won't be able to end the fight as quickly as he originally hoped.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
So it just makes the fact of Goku not using SSJ3 is even bigger dickhead move. Goku's grasp of the entire scenario was so off-target.

The bottom page is what I was referring to: Goku realizing Vegeta has SS2 doesn't excite him the way Freeza powering up to 100% did, he wanted to end things quickly and Vegeta screwed that plan by having SS2 as well.... Except Goku still has a higher form to win and without Vegeta damaging him, Babidi wouldn't have been able to gain enough power to awaken Boo. Even the whole time drain business is a faulty excuse since Goku can one shot all three of the present enemies and power down with plenty of time to spare.

[Lord Beerus]

It being good or not is up to the viewer, the main thing is that he gave a reason to why it wasn't used.

Sometimes, but when the lack of logic is staring you right in the face...

Think about it. If Goku is saving the form just in case, what is that just in case? Buu! Here's the perfect opportunity to stop Buu. By taking out Vegeta in one fell swoop, then it's a great use of the reduced time limit.

Well, considering they just had a bunch of unforeseen enemies and circumstances pop up, I don't see how this is a bad idea. Let's say he goes SSJ3 but it ends up draining his time to the point where he disappears. Maybe Vegeta gets a further mutates rage boost after seeing Goku go SSJ3 and now the fights not so easy, in addition Goku's gonna be gone soon and a SSJ3 level raging Majin Vegeta is now running around on Earth.

Look its pretty easy to say Goku should have just went SSJ3 and offed him, but I feel like that hasn't been thought through nearly enough. Goku kills Vegeta, goes looking for Babidi. Babidi, who has been listening this whole time knows he just needs to go into hiding using his magic for 24 hours. He's obviously done it before otherwise Kaioshin would have found him. Now we're left with no Goku, no Vegeta. The only way to ensure the future was to keep the strongest of them on their side so Babidi couldnt come back and pull this again when Goku isn't around. The best option was to get Vegeta, as the strongest living person on Earth to be on his side so someone is around to stop Babidi in the future. Vegeta was literally the biggest threat at the point Goku was making the judgement call. The only context Goku has are these "incredibly strong" guys that Babidi has and kaioshin's word who is repeatedly shocked by how strong they are. In Goku's mind evil Vegeta is a bigger priority and danger at the moment, and he is.

Getting Vegeta back on Goku's side was the highest priority and I agree with that.

No. It. Bloody. Wasn't.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
You seem to be under this idea that Vegeta would go crazy if he defeated easily by SSJ3 when that is not the case. He was angry at Goku for not going all out in their battle. That was biggest insult to Vegeta. Not that idea he would have been easily defeat by SSJ3 Goku.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
I don't know why you keep ignoring what's stated in the manga for a theory that is directly contracted by what's stated in the original story.

[90sDBZ]

Has anyone considered that Goku had fusion in mind the whole time? It's possible that he was being careful not to underestimate Buu, and could even sense when he was in his shell that even SS3 might not necessarily be enough against him, so opted to keep Vegeta conscious so they could fuse and easily take him down.

And then there's also the fact that it wasn't until midway through the fight that Vegeta admitted to being possessed on purpose. Goku might have felt more compassion for him at least up to that point, and chose not to destroy his life by stomping him and leaving his pride broken forever after 7 years of training.

Goku doesn't lie. In fact, he's blunt with his friends. And while we've seen Goku let the bad guy go, it's to fight them again. It's not so others can clean up his mess.

Actually he did lie to Vegeta and Trunks during the Cell saga when he said that only 2 people could enter the Time Chamber at a time. He also chose to keep Gohan and his friends in the dark about Gohan's power leading up to the Cell Games, even when they asked him repeatedly if he had a plan. And with the exception of Krillin, I'm pretty sure he also hid the fact from his friends that he was the one who let Vegeta go after their first battle. He makes a brief comment saying "He got away" instead of "I pressured Krillin to let him get away".

And him lying to Piccolo before revealing SS3 is also consistent with him lying to Piccolo again after, when he says he's uncertain if he could have killed Fat Buu then and there.