Hakai and Superman

[malicecrossrevolver]

I didn't want to start this subject, but it's been eating away at me for a while. This image:
[spoiler][/spoiler]


So can the Hakai destroy Superman? No, not really.
Okay so, the Hakai is a God of Destruction ability that destroys anything. Fair enough. However, comic book characters are powerful because they have special powers and abilities that make them unique.

For example, the Juggernaut has the power to never lose his forward momentum. If he starts moving, not even the Hulk can stand in his way. Not even Goku for that matter. It doesn't mean he can't still lose, he can be redirected. I think you get the point.

Superman has a lot of powers flight, super speed, "lasers" (just like dragon ball characters). He also has ice breath, can vibrate his body to make himself invisible or intangible. But the most iconic power of his is Indestructibility.

No I'm not saying Superman can beat Goku, thought I'm thinking it, but Hakai just won't work. And the solid evidence is Darkseid. Beerus is a God, so is Darkseid. Beerus can destroy anything with Hakai, Darkseid can destroy anything with his Omega Beams.

Darkseid's omega beams are capable of vaporizing, erasing or transmitting any form of matter, living or non-living. They can also send/retrieve anything from different dimensions, timelines, and even universes.
[spoiler][/spoiler]


One could argue that the Omega beams are a Hakai +1 since they can do much more. But in short they are the same divine ability. And Superman can tank the attack, because he's indestructible.

In conclusion, Superman is OP, not saying how an actual fight would go, but the Hakai is not an ace in the hole. Thank you.

[rereboy]

Superman's indestructibility is not literal indestructibility. Superman has been hurt plenty of times, which means that several parts of his body were damaged or destroyed. Some things even completely ignore how tough he is, like magic attacks. Furthermore, no incarnation of Superman, no matter how tough and powerful it was, was supposed to be so indestructible that nothing in the multiverse could scratch him.

As for how the hakai technique would work, that's anyone's guess. We don't know enough to guess how it works in universe. Out of universe, it would be purely a writer's choice.

[malicecrossrevolver]

Superman's indestructibility is not literal indestructibility. Superman has been hurt plenty of times, which means that several parts of his body were damaged or destroyed. Some things even completely ignore how tough he is, like magic attacks. Furthermore, no incarnation of Superman, no matter how tough and powerful it was, was supposed to be so indestructible that nothing in the multiverse could scratch him.

As for how the hakai technique would work, that's anyone's guess. We don't know enough to guess how it works in universe. Out of universe, it would be purely a writer's choice.

I get ya. What I want to highlight is the comparison between the Hakai and the Omega Beams. The omega beams can destroy not only in the physical world, but also throughout time, as if you never existed. Both abilities are godly attacks that destroy anything, but superman can survive it.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I know this is the 'in-universe' discussion forum but you can't exactly stay 'in-universe' when you're already trying to cross over between two separate universes/series. So really, the only correct answer is:

It works if the writer of the crossover says it works, and it doesn't work if they say it doesn't.

[apex_pretador]

Why is majority of Dragon-Ball fanbase so obsessed with Superman? Also, as Polyphase Avalone said, this is not an in-universe discussion.

Anyways, on topic, Superman is not "indestructible". He can be severely hurt by planet busting explosions and attacks. A solar-system busting attack would cripple or kill him, and someone like Beerus can easily blow him to bits with a breath when serious enough. And if manga hakai could work on someone who actually has indestructibility and regeneration as power, and is far more powerful than Superman, then it IS going to work on Superman, period. Obviously, there is plot which dictates everything, but I'm just being as objective as I can without taking plot into account.

[malicecrossrevolver]

Why is majority of Dragon-Ball fanbase so obsessed with Superman? Also, as Polyphase Avalone said, this is not an in-universe discussion.

Anyways, on topic, Superman is not "indestructible". He can be severely hurt by planet busting explosions and attacks. A solar-system busting attack would cripple or kill him, and someone like Beerus can easily blow him to bits with a breath when serious enough. And if manga hakai could work on someone who actually has indestructibility and regeneration as power, and is far more powerful than Superman, then it IS going to work on Superman, period. Obviously, there is plot which dictates everything, but I'm just being as objective as I can without taking plot into account.

Well first of all, a moderator told me to put this thread here. It's not that big a deal really.
Dragon ball related. I have never seen a cannon attack that blows up anything larger than a planet. I'm not sure where you're getting this solar-system busting attack idea from;
However, we all know, as fans, that Vegeta was killed by a planet busting attack during the Golden Frieza arc. That's roughly what it takes to kill a super saiyan blue i guess. Frieza wasn't even in his golden form.

Scientifically, to destroy a solar system takes an explosion the size of a supernova. Which Superman has tanked so there's that. Not to mention he can actually survive in the actual star core.

I understand, people are obsessed with Superman because how similar he is to Goku. I'm just saying that when people argue about the two's abilities and strengths,Superman would be able to survive the properties of the Hakai since it's the same thing as the omega sanction.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I understand, people are obsessed with Superman because how similar he is to Goku. I'm just saying that when people argue about the two's abilities and strengths,Superman would be able to survive the properties of the Hakai since it's the same thing as the omega sanction.

Um, no. They're two completely imaginary powers from two different completely imaginary worlds.

You could say something like 'well this guy survived in lava and this other guy from a different setting also survived in lava so they are comparable' because lava is a real thing.

But neither Hakaishin powers or Omega Force are real things in real life. So you can't compare them like that.

[manwolf]

I think that the technique is not instantaneous nor infallible.

Zamasu can use Mai to shield itself and Frieza are immune to an attack from a god of destruction so is logical to think that he is immune to a hakai.

[theherodjl]

This nature of this thread was unwarranted, if you do not mind me saying so.
I understand you're attempting to address another random fan claim regarding Goku's abilities in another medium of fiction, however I do not believe that anyone here, to the best of my knowledge, was actually inquiring to yet another tiresome analysis of Goku vs Superman.
This may be Kanzenshuu and Dragonball is the topic here, but it is not the place to debate the outcome of a hypothetical fight between a Dragonball character and a character from another series of fiction. Especially since there wasn't a relevant or existing thread that had any mention of such a battle, your post feels more like a "take that!" among other DB fans against someone else who may have been discussing this topic elsewhere,
It also seems like a need to acknowledge that Superman has the advantage, in which the intelligent authority of this site must verify in agreement. Its somewhat insulting, even if that wasn't your intention.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I think that the technique is not instantaneous nor infallible.

Zamasu can use Mai to shield itself and Frieza are immune to an attack from a god of destruction so is logical to think that he is immune to a hakai.

Freeza was resistant to Sidra's destruction energy being used via a proxy. If Sidra himself attacked him directly things might go differently. Freeza could probably take a few attacks but I think he would lose in the end.

[dario03]

Like others have said, this would just come down to the writer. I know that's not an in-universe answer but we are talking about 2 different fictional universes with no official cross over with each other. However I agree that if there was a crossover then you could use your points as evidence to set a precedent. But it isn't enough to say for a fact that it would work like that.
Another point would be if this type of power works on things from other universes, sometimes they don't. I think the omega effect has been done in some crossover stuff so it probably works but hakai could very well be a only works on its own universe type of thing. Might not be an ability based on ones own power but something tapped into that is part of its universe and thus only works in its universe and on things from its universe. Infinity Gems were like that in the DC/Marvel Amalgam universe, they didn't work outside of Marvel. Even Zeno's power could be like that, he might not have the power to erase something if it isn't from one of the universes he rules over.
But even if we ignore the crossover stuff do we even know the extent of hakai? Can it really destroy anything? Can Beerus destroy other GoDs? the angels? Zeno?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Can Beerus destroy other GoDs? the angels? Zeno?

If he could he would have done so already.

[dario03]

Can Beerus destroy other GoDs? the angels? Zeno?

If he could he would have done so already.

So the ability is limited, even in its own multiverse.

[malicecrossrevolver]

Can Beerus destroy other GoDs? the angels? Zeno?

If he could he would have done so already.

He can, he destroyed Gowasu's apprentice. If you consider the Kaioshin gods

[Eire]

Zamasu was explicitly told to be below Beerus and gods aren't equal in this setting.

[DragonBallLove]

Furthermore, no incarnation of Superman, no matter how tough and powerful it was, was supposed to be so indestructible that nothing in the multiverse could scratch him.

You haven't heard of the Sword of Superman, have you? Or the Thought Mecha from Morrison's Final Crisis Superman Beyond? Or whats infered from Morrison's (again) DC
One Million's Superman Prime?
Man, you can't make hyperboles that big if you don't know this things, they aren't even obscure for DC fans...

[rereboy]

Furthermore, no incarnation of Superman, no matter how tough and powerful it was, was supposed to be so indestructible that nothing in the multiverse could scratch him.

You haven't heard of the Sword of Superman, have you? Or the Thought Mecha from Morrison's Final Crisis Superman Beyond? Or whats infered from Morrison's (again) DC
One Million's Superman Prime?
Man, you can't make hyperboles that big if you don't know this things, they aren't even obscure for DC fans...

Why, yes, I have. And have you heard of the The Presence? As in the fictional representation of God in the DC universe, and, as such, omnipotent? For my statement to be incorrect, The Presense, the fictional representation of God in the DC universe, and, as such, omnipotent, would have to be unable to even scratch one or more of those incarnations, because as long as The Presence can hurt Superman, there would be something able to at least scratch him in the multiverse. So, is The Presence powerless to scratch the most powerful Superman's incarnations? No, its' not since it's literally omnipotent within the DC universe.

The only hyperbole being used here is by you, since you are suggesting that the power of those incarnations was so great that even The Presence would not scratch them.

[dario03]

Can Beerus destroy other GoDs? the angels? Zeno?

If he could he would have done so already.

He can, he destroyed Gowasu's apprentice. If you consider the Kaioshin gods

I meant
God
of
Destruction

Furthermore, no incarnation of Superman, no matter how tough and powerful it was, was supposed to be so indestructible that nothing in the multiverse could scratch him.

You haven't heard of the Sword of Superman, have you? Or the Thought Mecha from Morrison's Final Crisis Superman Beyond? Or whats infered from Morrison's (again) DC
One Million's Superman Prime?
Man, you can't make hyperboles that big if you don't know this things, they aren't even obscure for DC fans...

Sword of Superman isn't a power of Superman though.
And thought robot is well a robot, powered by Superman and Ultraman (and controlled by Superman???) but its not Superman. In a some what related note I've always found it a little odd that Cosmic Armor Superman/Thought Robot gets brought up as a version of Superman more often than Superboy Prime.

[Lord Frieza]

I looked up the Omega Beam's feats and while powerful, very powerful, they have never displayed the potential that Haki has. While both are in essense the power of destruction/entropy, Omega beams feat are limited to destroying or hurting individuals, the most powerful being him being able to hurt the Anti-Moniter.

On the flip side Haki has a much greater potiental for destruction. It can destroy the entire universe. This is why the gods are not allowed to battle eachother, as seen with Beerus and Champa, if allowed to run wild the power of destruction will consume all. This is why that have so many restrictions placed on them. However as we know not all GoD are of the same level of power yet it is stated that should any two of them fight both universes will be destroyed reguardless. Darkseid's power was only enough to contribute 1/5th of the power to destroy a universe.

So what it boils down to is howmuch effert is put into the attack. Sidra only failed to kill Frieza becuse he grossly understimated his power. Had he put more energy into it he would have erased him. However the GoD are granted this power and it is part of them. How Goku uses it is unknown. My guess is that he can emulate the effect using his God Ki.

Since Goku has been shown to be powerful enough to at leadt fight and do some damage to Superman befor his Super feats, its possible that it he put his full power into it it could work. However Supes is not just going to stand their and let him do it. But if Goku could use the Mafuba to immobalise him.....who knows?

[DragonBallLove]

Furthermore, no incarnation of Superman, no matter how tough and powerful it was, was supposed to be so indestructible that nothing in the multiverse could scratch him.

You haven't heard of the Sword of Superman, have you? Or the Thought Mecha from Morrison's Final Crisis Superman Beyond? Or whats infered from Morrison's (again) DC
One Million's Superman Prime?
Man, you can't make hyperboles that big if you don't know this things, they aren't even obscure for DC fans...

Why, yes, I have. And have you heard of the The Presence? As in the fictional representation of God in the DC universe, and, as such, omnipotent? For my statement to be incorrect, The Presense, the fictional representation of God in the DC universe, and, as such, omnipotent, would have to be unable to even scratch one or more of those incarnations, because as long as The Presence can hurt Superman, there would be something able to at least scratch him in the multiverse. So, is The Presence powerless to scratch the most powerful Superman's incarnations? No, its' not since it's literally omnipotent within the DC universe.

The only hyperbole being used here is by you, since you are suggesting that the power of those incarnations was so great that even The Presence would not scratch them.

The Prescense/God has been killed by Lucifer in its latest series and godhood has been splitted between many beigns.
Omnipotence is ofter downplayed in DC... Man, even the recent developments indicating that Manhattan could be over any other DC character as of yet.

Sword of Superman isn't a power of Superman though.
And thought robot is well a robot, powered by Superman and Ultraman (and controlled by Superman???) but its not Superman. In a some what related note I've always found it a little odd that Cosmic Armor Superman/Thought Robot gets brought up as a version of Superman more often than Superboy Prime.

Well, this much is true, and accounting this and 1M's Prime not having a clear power listing, you can say no version Superman have been absolutely and clearly invulnerable. Prime's is near, though, if you extrapolates what Morrison is implying.