What's your tolerance for character incompetence?

[Bardo117]

I guess a lot....


I HATE Mystic Gohan(jaja)(you useless fu** !!)


But I love him too....

[precita]

Oh yeah, there's also Gotenks incompetence in finishing off Buu when he had the chance. Or playing games instead of getting the job done.

But it fit Gotenks character and the eps where he fights Buu are some of my favorites of the arc.

[ABED]

But again, it wasn't his attraction towards her that I had a hard time getting, but that his attraction was supposed to be interpreted as honest infatuation, one strong enough that made him forgo everyone's safety.
All he knew about her was that her future version kills them all and that the current version was out to kill Goku. I mean, if my best friend suddenly decided to help out someone who is after my life just because she's cute and gave him a second of attention I'd be a little disappointed.

Anyway, that's my take from the manga. The anime might have smoothed things over a little better with extra scenes, but I don't remember that.

Vegeta/Bulma has it's share of problems too, and yes, it doesn't do Bulma's character any favors either that she got with Vegeta before he had any sort of development. But eh, Dragon Ball characters and their principles.

What Kuririn knew wasn't just that he was killed. He could see that there were differences, not merely in her, but the timeline has changed significantly from what Trunks described. It's not just the audience who is aware. Kuririn is definitely aware. I said to take your feelings about right and wrong out of the equation. What matters isn't your ethics, it's Kuririn's. Kuririn was fully on board with letting the cyborgs be created despite advanced warning, but somehow THIS is what you think is out of the blue for him? He's seen pretty girls like her before, but none of them pecked him on the cheek and have some feelings for her. It's not crazy to think Kuririn would wonder what that meant. I absolutely believe he was honestly infatuated with her. The anime did probably help this issue. I can't remember what was in the manga and what was anime only.

As for what I believe is actually incompetent, it bugs me every time that Gohan has to be convinced to fight Cell a final time. He was ready to let everything be destroyed instead of at least going down swinging. That would've been a good time to show some character development, instead Goku has to hold his hand.

[Michsi]

What Kuririn knew wasn't just that he was killed. He could see that there were differences, not merely in her, but the timeline has changed significantly from what Trunks described. It's not just the audience who is aware. Kuririn is definitely aware. I said to take your feelings about right and wrong out of the equation. What matters isn't your ethics, it's Kuririn's. Kuririn was fully on board with letting the cyborgs be created despite advanced warning, but somehow THIS is what you think is out of the blue for him? He's seen pretty girls like her before, but none of them pecked him on the cheek and have some feelings for her. It's not crazy to think Kuririn would wonder what that meant. I absolutely believe he was honestly infatuated with her. The anime did probably help this issue. I can't remember what was in the manga and what was anime only.
.

This thread is about our tolerance so of course subjectivity plays a part in all of this. And every time you look at a character's actions or ethics, you do so through your personal lens of principles and emotions. Perfect objectivity isn't really possible, nor is it justified in this case. Kurirn's actions being questionable before doesn't make this any better. Also , coincidentally, Krillin was the one person that wanted to go along with Bulma's plan at first and only relented only he saw that Goku wasn't going to go along with it, and then came up with a reason to appease Bulma. This all points towards him being one of the more rational members of the group. That kinda goes against what we see later with #18.

Again, maybe the anime did a better job at selling this idea. They stretch out the episodes with all sorts of padding, so maybe they added more scenes where they show him thinking about her to help drive home the point. But I haven't watched the Cell Saga of the anime in it's entirety for years and I'm only referring to the manga here. In the manga it was the kiss, a thought, and BAM broken remote.

[Kanassa]

Really, my problem with tolerating the character actions in the Cell saga is that: To me it either felt like it was being artificially extended or that Toriyama was constantly writing himself into a corner and had to get someone to fuck up the plot so everything could continue.

[ABED]

This thread is about our tolerance so of course subjectivity plays a part in all of this. And every time you look at a character's actions or ethics, you do so through your personal lens of principles and emotions

Fair points, but I was arguing against your point whether it was out of the blue or out of character. Kuririn's character wasn't sacrificed for the sake of the plot. He's perfectly in character which would go against your point.

Krillin was the one person that wanted to go along with Bulma's plan at first and only relented

He didn't put up much of a fight and in fact, he gave a big speech about why they SHOULD allow the cyborgs to be created.

To me it either felt like it was being artificially extended or that Toriyama was constantly writing himself into a corner and had to get someone to fuck up the plot so everything could continue.

That happens a lot. In order to solve a story problem, a writer will sacrifice the consistency of the character. Sometimes they don't even realize it, but I don't think that's the case here, with the exception of Gohan. Goku and Vegeta and the rest would definitely let the cyborgs be created in order to have a good fight.

[Michsi]

This thread is about our tolerance so of course subjectivity plays a part in all of this. And every time you look at a character's actions or ethics, you do so through your personal lens of principles and emotions

Fair points, but I was arguing against your point whether it was out of the blue or out of character.

And I made a point to explain that it was the intensity and grandness of that love that was out of the blue and lacked development to justify it.

He didn't put up much of a fight and in fact, he gave a big speech about why they SHOULD allow the cyborgs to be created.

Now this is just splitting hairs for the sake of the argument. His speech came after he saw that no one else wanted to go along with Bulma's reasonable plan so he went and found the silver lining to the mess. And his reasoning about a common goal getting Vegeta to play nice actually made sense. Again, all this points towards him being a practical fellow.

So, still not out of the blue.

Again, splitting hairs over a hyperbole. Fine, it was practically out of the blue.

[ABED]

I'm telling you his love wasn't that intense. It wasn't love. It's more like an intense attraction that he doesn't understand and he's interested to see if it's something more. And yet again, it wasn't out of the blue.

And his reasoning about a common goal getting Vegeta to play nice actually made sense. Again, all this points towards him being a practical fellow.

That isn't practical! He's showing that he's in favor of letting possibly world ending cyborgs get created all so his friends can have an opponent to defeat. He let Vegeta go so his friend could fight him later. He's not as practical as you make him sound. Kuririn has shown numerous times that he's not above letting his friends do what they want for the sake of a good fight even at the expense of everyone's safety. Is it that big of a leap to think he's above putting the world in peril because he's attracted to 18?

Again, splitting hairs over a hyperbole. Fine, it was practically out of the blue.

THat's not splitting hairs. It's going to the heart of the matter. You were arguing that you don't like when characters are sacrificed for plot and said Kuririn's feelings for 18 weren't out of nowhere. They were set up from the beginning, and I'm not splitting hairs because it goes to the core of your point which you yourself brought up. His feelings weren't convenient for the sake of the plot as it's a part of his character. It's like you are throwing terms against the wall to see what sticks just because you don't like something.

[Michsi]

I'm telling you his love wasn't that intense. It wasn't love. It's more like an intense attraction that he doesn't understand and he's interested to see if it's something more. And yet again, it wasn't out of the blue.
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Than that makes the whole thing even worse. A grand gesture like that needs to a have a believable emotional basis otherwise it feels forced and out-of-nowhere. Piccolo spent 6 months with Gohan before he threw himself in front of blast for him, Vegeta spent seven years living with Bulma and Trunks before becoming the person that was willing to die for them.

That isn't practical! He's showing that he's in favor of letting possibly world ending cyborgs get created all so his friends can have an opponent to defeat. He let Vegeta go so his friend could fight him later. He's not as practical as you make him sound. Kuririn has shown numerous times that he's not above letting his friends do what they want for the sake of a good fight even at the expense of everyone's safety. Is it that big of a leap to think he's above putting the world in peril because he's attracted to 18?

So based on this Bulma is also not practical because she gave up in the end too? I could start arguing that Krillin had no choice in the matter if wanted to continue this debate, but I'm going to have to repeat that it feel like splitting hairs at his point.

THat's not splitting hairs. It's going to the heart of the matter. You were arguing that you don't like when characters are sacrificed for plot and said Kuririn's feelings for 18 weren't out of nowhere. They were set up from the beginning, and I'm not splitting hairs because it goes to the core of your point which you yourself brought up. His feelings weren't convenient for the sake of the plot as it's a part of his character. It's like you are throwing terms against the wall to see what sticks just because you don't like something.

And this just feels like throwing accusations because you simply don't see or agree with my point, which again, is fine, this is a personal opinion. Claiming someone is using big words without knowing what they mean is starting to turn this debate a little to acerbic for my taste. I was fairly certain that the hyperbole is implicit given that I have read the manga; everyone freaking knows about the kiss. But there is not enough between the kiss and the destroying of the remote to warn the readers his feeling of attraction or what have you had become that significant. And I am not by any means the only one who thinks this.

If it helps, I'll concede that "out-of-where" is not an appropriate term and replace it with "weakly presented". The core of the matter was that it's unconvincing as a story element and convenient as a plot device.

[ABED]

Than that makes the whole thing even worse. A grand gesture like that needs to a have a believable emotional basis otherwise it feels forced and out-of-nowhere. Piccolo spent 6 months with Gohan before he threw himself in front of blast for him, Vegeta spent seven years living with Bulma and Trunks before becoming the person that was willing to die for them.

How is that worse if it's an attraction rather than love? It seems like you are judging this based on what YOU think is right and not what the character thinks is right. Kuririn's ethics are different than yours, so it's not as big of a leap for him to do something as reckless as it would be if a character with a more conventional ethics were to do it.

It's not as simple as a matter of time. Honestly, I find it more believable that Kuririn would smash the controller after constantly thinking about that kiss than Bulma would have Vegeta's child no matter how much time they spent together. Vegeta tried to kill everyone she cared about, and has killed countless civilizations. What could she possibly see in him that outweighs that? Piccolo needed more time with Gohan the Kuririn did to make his decision because it was a greater change for him. He was the former demon king, so of course it would take a while. Kuririn wants to get married, he's not above doing something reckless for personal reasons, and this is the first girl who ever showed him anything that could've been seen as affection (as far as I can recall). It's not as big of a change.

In Terminator, Sarah and Reese only spend a few days together but fell in love. You buy it because the intensity of the situation and the chemistry of the actors. Kuririn isn't in love, but he does want to get married and this is the first girl who has done anything that could be seen as showing a mild interest in him and as we've seen, he's not against people putting the world in peril for their own personal reasons.

Claiming someone is using big words

I never claimed you are using big words. I said you are throwing out terms that don't apply because you have little evidence from the series to back up your point. I also don't care how many people hold your view. That doesn't make it more correct. A lot of people think the Faulconer score fits DBZ's tone.

The one thing I will concede is that in the manga, there could've been more to show that the kiss was constantly on his mind. The anime, it's probably more present, so given that and that he has no issue with doing reckless things for self centered reasons, it's not a big jump that he would destroy the controller for her. I don't think it would require him being in love, either, just an intense crush.

Surprisingly, DB is mostly bereft of the one trope that I grow more and more tired of - characters constantly lying to each other in order to save themselves an unpleasant discussion. It always backfires and at some point, you'd think they would learn from experience that the truth always comes out. Thankfully, no matter how reckless Goku and the others are, they are refreshingly upfront about their intentions.

[Kanassa]

To me it either felt like it was being artificially extended or that Toriyama was constantly writing himself into a corner and had to get someone to fuck up the plot so everything could continue.

That happens a lot. In order to solve a story problem, a writer will sacrifice the consistency of the character. Sometimes they don't even realize it, but I don't think that's the case here, with the exception of Gohan. Goku and Vegeta and the rest would definitely let the cyborgs be created in order to have a good fight.

I don't consider stuff like Goku and Vegeta letting the Androids be created as any of the things I mentioned. More specifically it's the middle part of the arc that feels rather bloated with stuff like Vegeta and Trunks even coming to fight Cell.

[ABED]

To me it either felt like it was being artificially extended or that Toriyama was constantly writing himself into a corner and had to get someone to fuck up the plot so everything could continue.

That happens a lot. In order to solve a story problem, a writer will sacrifice the consistency of the character. Sometimes they don't even realize it, but I don't think that's the case here, with the exception of Gohan. Goku and Vegeta and the rest would definitely let the cyborgs be created in order to have a good fight.

I don't consider stuff like Goku and Vegeta letting the Androids be created as any of the things I mentioned. More specifically it's the middle part of the arc that feels rather bloated with stuff like Vegeta and Trunks even coming to fight Cell.

What specifically? I believe Vegeta would let Cell become perfect. Sure, I consider that part of the story to be a slog to get through, but not out of character. Why wouldn't they go to fight Cell?

[Kanassa]

That happens a lot. In order to solve a story problem, a writer will sacrifice the consistency of the character. Sometimes they don't even realize it, but I don't think that's the case here, with the exception of Gohan. Goku and Vegeta and the rest would definitely let the cyborgs be created in order to have a good fight.

I don't consider stuff like Goku and Vegeta letting the Androids be created as any of the things I mentioned. More specifically it's the middle part of the arc that feels rather bloated with stuff like Vegeta and Trunks even coming to fight Cell.

What specifically? I believe Vegeta would let Cell become perfect. Sure, I consider that part of the story to be a slog to get through, but not out of character. Why wouldn't they go to fight Cell?

I meant from a story perspective, them going to fight Cell does nothing but pad the story for seven chapters. The only thing it really accomplishes is Vegeta affirming that he's still the same character he was in the Frieza arc. I'm not saying that they're out of character.

[ABED]

I don't agree that it's ALL padding. Without Vegeta there, it's conjecture whether he absorbs 18. I'd like to think that he wouldn't have, otherwise it would've been a waste and not even a fun waste of time.

[WittyUsername]

My tolerance is pretty high. Goku forgetting the seal in the Goku Black Arc is my limit because it really just doesn't make any sense at all, they made him seem almost TFS Goku level dumb. Most everything else is fine and fits the personality of the characters from what I can think of off the top of my head.

The thing that’s especially dumb about Goku forgetting the seal is that it made Black and Zamasu look dumb when they decided to fuse, thereby compromising their immortality.

[Michsi]

It's not as simple as a matter of time. Honestly, I find it more believable that Kuririn would smash the controller after constantly thinking about that kiss than Bulma would have Vegeta's child no matter how much time they spent together. Vegeta tried to kill everyone she cared about, and has killed countless civilizations. What could she possibly see in him that outweighs that? Piccolo needed more time with Gohan the Kuririn did to make his decision because it was a greater change for him. He was the former demon king, so of course it would take a while. Kuririn wants to get married, he's not above doing something reckless for personal reasons, and this is the first girl who ever showed him anything that could've been seen as affection (as far as I can recall). It's not as big of a change.

Not time, but chances for interactions. Toriyama skips over the "development period" in most cases and characters get close off-screen, but if a decent amount of time passes you can sorta believe it. Kuririn had neither significant interactions nor time spent with her.

And I'm not going to debate Bulma's case; I completely agree that it makes her look bad, and that "pairing" really did come out of nowhere. I mean, Vegeta brags about how a village of innocent namekians can't be brought back because they were killed by him and not Freeza and his men, and a few scenes later we see him chillin' at Capsule Corp with the others? Yeah, a year passes between those two scenes and at least another one goes by before they get together, but Vegeta is still an immoral bastard when we see him in the Cell Saga, so it's still weird.
The only thing that warmed me up to the idea of them was that this was a very ballsy move to have Bulma become a mother after what seemed to be nothing more than a one-night stand at that point. You don't see situations like this that much in shonen manga and the like.

I said you are throwing out terms that don't apply because you have little evidence from the series to back up your point. I also don't care how many people hold your view. That doesn't make it more correct. A lot of people think the Faulconer score fits DBZ's tone.

So basically I don't know what I'm talking about and argue for the sake arguing? Still not better. I happen to think I explained my reasons quite well, at least enough to have someone with a different opinion understand where I am coming from. I will stick with my opinion that 18/Krillin grand love came out of nowhere in the magnified sense of the term.
And the reason I mentioned that this is a common held belief among the fans wasn't to say that my version is the correct one, but to point out that I'm not being a contrarian here. It was generally seen as not a good move on Krillin's part.
(Also, I actually think the people who think the Faulcner score fit DBZ are in the minority )

The one thing I will concede is that in the manga, there could've been more to show that the kiss was constantly on his mind. The anime, it's probably more present, so given that and that he has no issue with doing reckless things for self centered reasons, it's not a big jump that he would destroy the controller for her. I don't think it would require him being in love, either, just an intense crush.

He has never been shown to do reckless things or be self-centered aside from when he was first introduced as a shifty eyed little brat, but he had long moved away from that point. An intense crush is still not enough to win me over. I mean, I can accept it, but I still don't think it's handled well.

Surprisingly, DB is mostly bereft of the one trope that I grow more and more tired of - characters constantly lying to each other in order to save themselves an unpleasant discussion. It always backfires and at some point, you'd think they would learn from experience that the truth always comes out. Thankfully, no matter how reckless Goku and the others are, they are refreshingly upfront about their intentions.

Toriyama's penchant for simple, straight forward and uncomplicated story telling can be a blessing and a curse. It can make the characters seem either really honest or overly simple and shallow. But yeah, stupid misunderstandings for the sake of drama and angst is not something I felt DB was missing
Ironically, something akin to that happened betwenn Goku and Krillin in DBS.

[ABED]

He doesn't have to spend time with her. He just has to dwell on it. The anime probably does a better job in this area.

at least enough to have someone with a different opinion understand where I am coming from. I will stick with my opinion that 18/Krillin grand love came out of nowhere in the magnified sense of the term.

I understand your opinion, but it wasn't grand love.

It was generally seen as not a good move on Krillin's part.

It doesn't have to be seen as a good move on his part. Toriyama wasn't saying it was a good move or the right move. What mattered is if it was in character, which it was.

He has never been shown to do reckless things or be self-centered aside from when he was first introduced as a shifty eyed little brat, but he had long moved away from that point. An intense crush is still not enough to win me over. I mean, I can accept it, but I still don't think it's handled well.

He lets Vegeta go, and he was on board with letting Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs. After initially saying they should stop them before, it doesn't take much to dissuade him and at no point later does he try to convince Goku to change his mind.

[Michsi]

He lets Vegeta go, and he was on board with letting Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs. After initially saying they should stop them before, it doesn't take much to dissuade him and at no point later does he try to convince Goku to change his mind.

None of which are his idea and actually go against his initial instincts. He wants to kill Vegeta, he wants to stop the cyborgs before they become a threat. He is the one person Toriyama showed to be happy about Bulma's plan. Not Yamcha, not Tenshinhan, him (maybe Gohan in the background) At most, this shows that he is weak-willed and easily swayed by Goku's whims, but that is another issue. And he is the one Toriyama had go and reason with Bulma; this shows he was the one with the most common sense aside from her.

[ABED]

He lets Vegeta go, and he was on board with letting Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs. After initially saying they should stop them before, it doesn't take much to dissuade him and at no point later does he try to convince Goku to change his mind.

None of which are his idea and actually go against his initial instincts. He wants to kill Vegeta, he wants to stop the cyborgs before they become a threat. He is the one person Toriyama showed to be happy about Bulma's plan. Not Yamcha, not Tenshinhan, him (maybe Gohan in the background) At most, this shows that he is weak-willed and easily swayed by Goku's whims, but that is another issue. And he is the one Toriyama had go and reason with Bulma; this shows he was the one with the most common sense aside from her.

We're going around in circles. This has been interesting, though.

[Lord Beerus]

I used to have a pretty basic standard of character incompetence in Dragon Ball, hence why I often used to get upset with how the cast acted during large portions of the Cell arc. Then after re-reading the manga (something I do often), and reading some of Toriyama's interviews, where we get an introspective of how he crafted the story, I took a step back and realised two things:

1. It's a story about a group of super-powered beings written by a man who specialises in poop joke and gag humour, spent most of his building model planes while he drawing and writing Dragon Ball on a weekly deadline, and same up with 80% of the story on the fly. This is so not the kind of story you're really supposed to take so seriously.

2. The characters themselves are martial artists, who while are more willing to stand in the front line and defend their territory when shit gets really rough and tough, they're most of the time more interested into having, or even creating, scenarios where they can improve themselves as true martial artists would. So while some of their decisions may seem incompetent in basic human nature, for guys like Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Tien, who pride themselves in becoming a strong as possible, making choices like allowing villains to become stronger or not taking the easy decision to deal with a threat before it happens, is a rational choice by their standards and mentality as martial artists. Because while the main cast certainly do have acts of heroism, they're not the kind of traditional superheroes who look for the simplest way of dealing with the potential big bad that is threating the lives of billions of people. They want to progress beyond their limits and improve themselves as the martial artists they've always been. And when shit truly hits the fan, then they'll knuckle down and truly take care of the threat as pragmatically as possible. This may create some unfortunate implications for the Western fans of Dragon Ball in how they would characterise the main cast with how they would act in certain scenerio, but Toriyama never intended to write the story in that kind of fashion for that kind of audience. He wrote and built the world and grand narrative of Dragon Ball on the tropes of Wuxia tales of old, whilst also embracing the traditions and standards of his own Eastern culture and ensuring that millions of young boys in Japan would enjoy his simple and fun story.