"40 Ton weights max"

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Rokkage
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"40 Ton weights max"

Post by Rokkage » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:16 pm

Most people love to pull up the fact that Goku stated that he wouldn't be able to carry 40 tonnes in his base form. However, what most people don't know is that while using Bukujutsu (舞空術, Flight) it's nearly impossible to lift weights,

Herms: "It's worth pointing out that the Daizenshuu basically says the reason Goku's weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it almost infinitely harder. It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.''

Making Goku's feat all the more impressive.
A good feat to compare this to is when he picked up Piccolo in his giant form, making him at least 10x larger. So if you multiply Piccolo's already hefty weight of '255 lbs (116 Kg) by 10. that puts Piccolo at almost exactly at 1 metric ton. This was back in Dragonball, post King Piccolo saga. So if we say that PL's are linear for the sake of this growth scale, we can calculate how many tonnes he can actually lift around that time. So if we say he's at a PL pf est. 300 (900 Kamehame-ha) and can lift a little more than one ton. we can estimate that at a PL of ab 85,000,000 (My guestimate of his Other World Training PL, higher than Cell & Lower than Buu). Using this logic that would mean he'd be able to lift at minimum 283333.333- tonnes in his base.

However, it's my belief that power levels aren't exactly linear, so this is probably a major low-ball. Otherwise I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions on the subject. This is my first actual post on the Kanzenshuu, and any constructive criticism would be nice. Thanks for reading :D

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Miracles
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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:36 pm

Rokkage wrote:Most people love to pull up the fact that Goku stated that he wouldn't be able to carry 40 tonnes in his base form. However, what most people don't know is that while using Bukujutsu (舞空術, Flight) it's nearly impossible to lift weights,

Herms: "It's worth pointing out that the Daizenshuu basically says the reason Goku's weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it almost infinitely harder. It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.''
Got a link for this?

Also, yeah, I agree. Toriyama never cared about strength feats. Vegeta in the Android arc was training in 300X gravity. Making him weigh 18 tons alone.
Base Goku in the BUU Saga struggling to lift 40 tons in the air is impressive but still shouldn't be anything but a piece of cake after all this time.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by theherodjl » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:01 pm

Welcome to the forums.
Actually "most people" know about Goku's physical strength being comparatively pathetic while under flight or levitation, its just that there is never a specific amount of weight provided or any proven, upper limit to Goku's lifting power while he's standing or squatting. Its basically all speculation or conjecture as to how physically strong Goku really is and there is a lot of it.
One of the driving forces behind it is the comparison of Goku's strength vs Superman's strength(or any other powerful comic/anime character) which is always an inevitable outcome, there is a stigma among hardcore DB fans to have Goku come out on top in versus debates in various categories.
Ultimately its not important though, Goku is not a superhero with his strength measured by whichever weight class he is 'supposed' to belong to. He's just our favorite Saiyan fighter who always saves the day against a myriad of strange and interesting villains.
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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:42 am

Base Goku in the early Buu saga can't fly while carrying 40 tons of weight. That's really the only thing to it. It says nothing about lifting or carrying weight while not flying, or about his other forms, or his base form in other periods of time.
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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Rokkage » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:16 pm

theherodjl wrote:Welcome to the forums.
Actually "most people" know about Goku's physical strength being comparatively pathetic while under flight or levitation, its just that there is never a specific amount of weight provided or any proven
Sorry about my generalization, I'm not acclimated with Kanzenshuu level of Dragonball-esque knowledge yet. I'm still used to being around people who still don't know some of the more basic things in dragonball lore. So I was referring to the "general population" on a website that should be taken a bit more seriously.

Another thing about the post is that it was just conjecture about what it might have been if PL's were linear, that was the main point. Not exactly to be taken very seriously as I don't exactly believe how that works, but just as a little thought that came up outta nowhere as a basic headcannon.
(Also take note this is how much I thought he could lift without amplifying himself with Ki.)
Miracles wrote: Got a link for this?
Not at the moment, I had one prepared last night, but i'm using a work computer rn in my off time. So i'll be able to get you that later on in the day.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Base Goku in the early Buu saga can't fly while carrying 40 tons of weight. That's really the only thing to it. It says nothing about lifting or carrying weight while not flying.
I know, lol, but this post was alittle brain fart moment that had always bugged me when people said that was his maximum. I just wanted to express my own thought on it. There was no pre-meditation to this post. Just a thing I kinda did on a whim without really thinking extreme logistics of the show in general.

thanks for replying :D

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:57 pm

So flying took up almost all his energy and now he cant lift 40 tons?

Sounds dumb to me.

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Rokkage » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:18 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:So flying took up almost all his energy and now he cant lift 40 tons?

Sounds dumb to me.
It's not that flying is making him tired, it's just far harder to lift weights while in midair, because not only does he have to use his ki to push up enough to hold them without falling down, but he also has to lift them all with only the individual limb. since most of your strength comes from being able to use every individual body part, not just one at a time. And you can only use every body part like that while planted on the ground. not in mid-air.

You'll also notice when the weights were added to Goku, he started floating downwards, since he wasn't using that much Ki to have only himself and 4 tonnes float.

What I'm saying isn't that he was tired. But that He could lift far more if he were on the ground.

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Miracles » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:26 pm

Rokkage wrote:Not at the moment, I had one prepared last night, but i'm using a work computer rn in my off time. So i'll be able to get you that later on in the day.
No problem.

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by The Monkey King » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:30 am

Dragon Ball's always been weird like that.

Like in the 1st chapter Kid Goku lifts and throws a 1 ton car, then he finds training with a 20kg turtle shell tough.

The G forces the characters would endure flying at hypersonic speeds would be in the 1000s, yet 100G in a gravity chamber is tough for them.

If you were to solely go by the weight numbers, you'd come to the conclusion that explosions carrying just building destroying amounts of force should obliterate them, yet they don't even budge in the face of city/island/country/moon/planet destroying explosions.

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Saiyan007 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:53 pm

Well a tired base Goku,android 17 and 18 can all survive the gravity of a black hole without getting pancaked sp yeah lol at 40 tons

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Speedster » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:22 am

Miracles wrote:
Rokkage wrote:Herms: "It's worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku's weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it almost infinitely harder. It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.''
Got a link for this?
It's the final paragraph of the 8th post in this thread. The source itself is the Super Exciting Guide (SEG), page 58 (and not Daizenshuu as the OP incorrectly states in his post). Basically what SEG suggests is that since Bukujutsu is a Ki-based technique, as the body weight increases the required Ki to use Bukujutsu increases exponentially. So, essentially, Goku was running out of Ki for using Bukujutsu while weighing 40tons. It has nothing to do with his strength.

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by theherodjl » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:11 am

Saiyan007 wrote:Well a tired base Goku,android 17 and 18 can all survive the gravity of a black hole without getting pancaked sp yeah lol at 40 tons
A 'black hole' that didn't affect the nearby vicinity or anyone else, it was just enough to push through a section of the arena floor. An actual black hole(stellar or supermassive) would have sucked in the entire arena and many of the fighters & audience, the "black hole of love" on the other hand had less overall gravity than the arena itself. Its a micro black hole if anything, it didn't even pull any light around it despite them claiming not even light could escape it. LAWL :D
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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Miracles » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:18 am

Speedster wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Rokkage wrote:Herms: "It's worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku's weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it almost infinitely harder. It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.''
Got a link for this?
It's the final paragraph of the 8th post in this thread. The source itself is the Super Exciting Guide (SEG), page 58 (and not Daizenshuu as the OP incorrectly states in his post). Basically what SEG suggests is that since Bukujutsu is a Ki-based technique, as the body weight increases the required Ki to use Bukujutsu increases exponentially. So, essentially, Goku was running out of Ki for using Bukujutsu while weighing 40tons. It has nothing to do with his strength.
Thank you.

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Saiyan007 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:40 am

theherodjl wrote: A 'black hole' that didn't affect the nearby vicinity or anyone else, it was just enough to push through a section of the arena floor
i must have imagined Android 18 ki blast getting sucked up by the attack then.....

Not too mention the arena is made out of the one of the most durable things in the multiverse.
An actual black hole(stellar or supermassive) would have sucked in the entire arena and many of the fighters & audience, the "black hole of love" on the other hand had less overall gravity than the arena itself. Its a micro black hole if anything, it didn't even pull any light around it despite them claiming not even light could escape it. LAWL :
the arena is durable than anything in our universe,Goku comments that the greavity is intense so i have no idea where you are getting it's less gravity than the arena lmao.Whis mentions that the attack is focused into a point to create a mass of gravity,the attacks was called a cage of love that even light can't escape.The attack is called pretty black hole how much more obvious can it get

A black hole is literally defined as a region of space with such a strong gravitational pull that not even light can escape it which what was stated in the episode.I'm not going to argue what is on screen because it doesn't apply exaclt to our real life physics :roll:

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by theherodjl » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:42 am

Saiyan007 wrote:i must have imagined Android 18 ki blast getting sucked up by the attack then.....

Not too mention the arena is made out of the one of the most durable things in the multiverse.

the arena is durable than anything in our universe,Goku comments that the greavity is intense so i have no idea where you are getting it's less gravity than the arena lmao.Whis mentions that the attack is focused into a point to create a mass of gravity,the attacks was called a cage of love that even light can't escape.The attack is called pretty black hole how much more obvious can it get

A black hole is literally defined as a region of space with such a strong gravitational pull that not even light can escape it which what was stated in the episode.I'm not going to argue what is on screen because it doesn't apply exaclt to our real life physics :roll:
What does a Ki blast sucked up by it after heading in its direction prove? Cell's kamehameha was sucked by by Gohan's kamehameha too after colliding with it, Ki techniques can totally consume other techniques.
Being made of the most durable substance doesn't mean much if ordinary Ki blasts from fighters with widely varying power levels can fragment or shatter several sections of the arena, the sun withstood a 10x kamehameha from SSJ4 Goku(who according to DB Xenoverse, is close to or on par with the SSJG tier of power) so the arena isn't nearly as durable as stellar objects. The core of a star makes Kachi Katchin look like crumbling sand.
The gravity would be intense for sure but Goku's only ever trained in 100g, that leaves a vary wide range of gravity between a machine that can simulate the gravity of a large planet vs that of a dwarf star. The sun can pull with over a hundred thousand times gravity than the Earth, that's over 10,000x greater gravity that what Goku has trained with. I doubt Goku can even move freely in 1,000x Earth's gravity without having trained in it.
I can get the gravity of the arena being greater than the 'black hole' because the arena was neither displaced or spaghettified in the process, a true black hole would cause both to happen. Basic physics.
Its described as a black hole yet doesn't demonstrate the more in depth properties of a black hole, matter & energy all around whether it be at rest or not should be drawn into it like it was a gravitational carousel but none of that happened. It just pushed a path through the floor. What was described was not actually depicted.
Its a BLINO, Black-Hole-In-Name-Only.
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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:00 am

theherodjl wrote:What does a Ki blast sucked up by it after heading in its direction prove? Cell's kamehameha was sucked by by Gohan's kamehameha too after colliding with it, Ki techniques can totally consume other techniques.
Being made of the most durable substance doesn't mean much if ordinary Ki blasts from fighters with widely varying power levels can fragment or shatter several sections of the arena, the sun withstood a 10x kamehameha from SSJ4 Goku(who according to DB Xenoverse, is close to or on par with the SSJG tier of power) so the arena isn't nearly as durable as stellar objects. The core of a star makes Kachi Katchin look like crumbling sand.
Wait... what? You're using Dragon Ball Xenoverse and GT in order to determine the power of SSJG Goku?

While in Dragon Ball Super itself SSJG Goku is shown to be universe level in power?

Jeez you really don't like Dragon Ball characters being powerful do you? :lol:

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:02 am

As someone who actually studies astrophysics, the excuses and arguments being given here make me cringe something fierce. It's obviously not a real black hole as defined by physics (which is really the only definition that matters).

The best way to describe it would probably be more like a heart-shaped mass of intense 'love' ki that greatly increases gravity within itself, to above 500 times normal (going by Goku's comment about it being heavier than Bulma's gravity machine). Perhaps somewhat similar to Aizen's Black Coffin attack from Bleach or Blackbeard's fruit from One Piece (although I think this one is significantly more powerful than either of those).
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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by theherodjl » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:42 pm

The Monkey King wrote:Wait... what? You're using Dragon Ball Xenoverse and GT in order to determine the power of SSJG Goku?

While in Dragon Ball Super itself SSJG Goku is shown to be universe level in power?

Jeez you really don't like Dragon Ball characters being powerful do you? :lol:
I know! Crazy right!? :lol:

But in all seriousness that is a thing that has been established by supplementary material, Goku wasn't universe level by his own strength. He needed Beerus or another being with intense God Ki to rock the cosmos, otherwise the feats become more traditional in the DB sense.
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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by pacz360 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:19 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
theherodjl wrote:What does a Ki blast sucked up by it after heading in its direction prove? Cell's kamehameha was sucked by by Gohan's kamehameha too after colliding with it, Ki techniques can totally consume other techniques.
Being made of the most durable substance doesn't mean much if ordinary Ki blasts from fighters with widely varying power levels can fragment or shatter several sections of the arena, the sun withstood a 10x kamehameha from SSJ4 Goku(who according to DB Xenoverse, is close to or on par with the SSJG tier of power) so the arena isn't nearly as durable as stellar objects. The core of a star makes Kachi Katchin look like crumbling sand.
Wait... what? You're using Dragon Ball Xenoverse and GT in order to determine the power of SSJG Goku?

While in Dragon Ball Super itself SSJG Goku is shown to be universe level in power?

Jeez you really don't like Dragon Ball characters being powerful do you? :lol:
It's funny honestly :lol:

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Re: "40 Ton weights max"

Post by pacz360 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:21 pm

theherodjl wrote:
The Monkey King wrote:Wait... what? You're using Dragon Ball Xenoverse and GT in order to determine the power of SSJG Goku?

While in Dragon Ball Super itself SSJG Goku is shown to be universe level in power?

Jeez you really don't like Dragon Ball characters being powerful do you? :lol:
I know! Crazy right!? :lol:

But in all seriousness that is a thing that has been established by supplementary material, Goku wasn't universe level by his own strength. He needed Beerus or another being with intense God Ki to rock the cosmos, otherwise the feats become more traditional in the DB sense.
Goku definitely universal regardless considering he and beerus were hitting each other with the force capable of destroying the universe being generous ssjg is goku multi galaxy level

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