How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

[ZeroNeonix]

Did the wish to become the strongest mortal take into account transformations? I mean, Broly is powerful, for sure, but did the dragon take into account his Full Power Super Saiyan form, or just his base power? I find it hard to believe that Vegeta is more powerful than Broly at in his green haired glory, considering Vegeta had to fuse with Goku and go Blue to beat Broly.

[Jinto]

It's pretty much confirmed by Goku that Granola is stronger than the both of them, hence his "I can't believe Granola has been battling the both of us" comment. SSJBE Vegeta's performance against Granola certainly does reinforce the fact that Vegeta is much stronger than Broly (who is much stronger than Jiren) though and Vegeta was no match for Beerus.

They didn't fight 2v1, Goku fought a clone first and Vegeta fought the real one after.
SSBE Vegeta is not stronger than Broly, there is no indication of such thing.
We don't even know if the dragon's condition for Gas is the same as Granolah since Gas was much stronger than Granolah was, the dragon might have omitted the "GoD", it only said that because that's Granolah's potential (which is below MUI as demonstrated earlier).

All in all, Beerus being this powerful without any satisfying justification is already a flawed narrative and bad power scaling, if Toyo wasn't allowed to make him weaker than Goku and Vegeta then those last 2 arc should've never seen the day.

The current power chart should look like this (excluding fusion)
Broly > MUI goku (> Gas) > Beerus (>= Gas) > Granolah > UEVegeta

[Koitsukai]

Why on Earth is Broly still on top of any list by 2022??

MORO73 was already stated to be stronger than him by virtue of being the strongest ever met by Goku, and that was like 15 chapters ago, having been surpassed by like 5 different people as of today.

[Jmass97]

It's pretty much confirmed by Goku that Granola is stronger than the both of them, hence his "I can't believe Granola has been battling the both of us" comment. SSJBE Vegeta's performance against Granola certainly does reinforce the fact that Vegeta is much stronger than Broly (who is much stronger than Jiren) though and Vegeta was no match for Beerus.

They didn't fight 2v1, Goku fought a clone first and Vegeta fought the real one after.
SSBE Vegeta is not stronger than Broly, there is no indication of such thing.
We don't even know if the dragon's condition for Gas is the same as Granolah since Gas was much stronger than Granolah was, the dragon might have omitted the "GoD", it only said that because that's Granolah's potential (which is below MUI as demonstrated earlier).

All in all, Beerus being this powerful without any satisfying justification is already a flawed narrative and bad power scaling, if Toyo wasn't allowed to make him weaker than Goku and Vegeta then those last 2 arc should've never seen the day.

The current power chart should look like this (excluding fusion)
Broly > MUI goku (> Gas) > Beerus (>= Gas) > Granolah > UEVegeta

I’m sorry but absolutely not. Lol more like Broly < MUI Goku <= UE Vegeta < Granolah < Gas < Beerus. As it currently stands and has been depicted. That’s not even mentioning the fact that Broly was surpassed by Moro 73 and even if you don’t think that’s true, Moro definitely surpassed Broly once he absorbed Merus and current Goku is certainly stronger now given that he matched that same moro the arc prior.

[Goku9001]

They didn't fight 2v1, Goku fought a clone first and Vegeta fought the real one after.
SSBE Vegeta is not stronger than Broly, there is no indication of such thing.
We don't even know if the dragon's condition for Gas is the same as Granolah since Gas was much stronger than Granolah was, the dragon might have omitted the "GoD", it only said that because that's Granolah's potential (which is below MUI as demonstrated earlier).

All in all, Beerus being this powerful without any satisfying justification is already a flawed narrative and bad power scaling, if Toyo wasn't allowed to make him weaker than Goku and Vegeta then those last 2 arc should've never seen the day.

The current power chart should look like this (excluding fusion)
Broly > MUI goku (> Gas) > Beerus (>= Gas) > Granolah > UEVegeta

Never said he did. I'm just going off of what Goku stated in which Goku was impressed that Granola was capable of fighting both him and Vegeta which serves as an admission of inferiority on Goku's part. Granola fought Goku and still continued to beat UE Vegeta to the brink of death, cementing his position as the strongest of the trio.

Whis stated that there was no one in the universe that was stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Toyotaro even confirmed that Goku, Vegeta, and Granola were all competing for the title of being the strongest in the universe and Broly is apart of that universe. Therefore, Broly isn't even on Goku and Vegeta's radar.

The power chain makes no sense since Moro is stated to be the strongest opponent Goku has ever fought, including Broly.

[Hugo Boss]

All in all, Beerus being this powerful without any satisfying justification is already a flawed narrative and bad power scaling, if Toyo wasn't allowed to make him weaker than Goku and Vegeta then those last 2 arc should've never seen the day.

Beerus being this powerful was already established since the beginning, despite what the Dragon Ball Super anime tries to sell. Future versions of Goku and Vegeta are implied to be his rival, so we have yet to see how they will reach that point.

[ZeroNeonix]

Goku and Vegeta should have surpassed Beerus a long time ago. Beerus was nervous when he saw the Blue/Kaioken combination. But okay, maybe he was more nervous about the rate of Goku's growth rather than his current power. Even if they still weren't equals then, Jiren was described as being more powerful than a God of Destruction, and Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Jiren. Don't know how they stack up against Whis, though. Does the manga even acknowledge Broly? I don't recall him getting a mention.

Of course, at the end of the day, we all know the most powerful fighter is the one Goku fights last. Everyone is as strong as they need to be to serve the plot and build tension. If Beerus ever has a rematch with Goku, it doesn't matter if it makes logical sense. He will be the strongest. Maybe they'll give him Ultra Instinct, since Whis said he was trying unsuccessfully to teach Beerus that technique for a while.

Or maybe they'll never have a rematch, and it will be another Jackie Chun situation. Maybe Beerus will keep blowing off Goku in order to save face. That'd be funny, and very on brand for Dragon Ball.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku and Vegeta should have surpassed Beerus a long time ago. Beerus was nervous when he saw the Blue/Kaioken combination. But okay, maybe he was more nervous about the rate or Goku's growth rather than his current power. Even if they still weren't equals then, Jiren was described as being more powerful than a God of Destruction, and Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Jiren. Don't know how they stack up against Whis, though. Does the manga even acknowledge Broly? I don't recall him getting a mention.

Of course, at the end of the day, we all know the most powerful fighter is the one Goku fights last. Everyone is as strong as they need to be to serve the plot and build tension. If Beerus ever has a rematch with Goku, it doesn't matter if it makes logical sense. He will be the strongest. Maybe they'll give him Ultra Instinct, since Whis said he was trying unsuccessfully to teach Beerus that technique for a while.

Or maybe they'll never have a rematch, and it will be another Jackie Chun situation. Maybe Beerus will keep blowing off Goku in order to save face. That'd be funny, and very on brand for Dragon Ball.

I do hope it's more a case of that last one. It'd be fitting if Goku never fights Beerus again and just quietly surpassed him without ever noticing it. Just like how Roshi beat Goku but it was clear Goku surpassed him pretty quickly afterwards, so to do I feel the same is true of Beerus.

And besides, it's not like these power levels are all that far apart anymore. Being around or above Gods of Destruction in raw power doesn't need to equate to being like tens of times stronger; we could be looking at a scenario where there are like 0.01 percent differences between every fighter who's shown to be at that level lately and the nuances are in combat abilities rather than strength since they're all relative in strength anyways.

[Koitsukai]

Goku and Vegeta should have surpassed Beerus a long time ago. Beerus was nervous when he saw the Blue/Kaioken combination. But okay, maybe he was more nervous about the rate or Goku's growth rather than his current power. Even if they still weren't equals then, Jiren was described as being more powerful than a God of Destruction, and Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Jiren. Don't know how they stack up against Whis, though. Does the manga even acknowledge Broly? I don't recall him getting a mention.

Of course, at the end of the day, we all know the most powerful fighter is the one Goku fights last. Everyone is as strong as they need to be to serve the plot and build tension. If Beerus ever has a rematch with Goku, it doesn't matter if it makes logical sense. He will be the strongest. Maybe they'll give him Ultra Instinct, since Whis said he was trying unsuccessfully to teach Beerus that technique for a while.

Or maybe they'll never have a rematch, and it will be another Jackie Chun situation. Maybe Beerus will keep blowing off Goku in order to save face. That'd be funny, and very on brand for Dragon Ball.

You are mixing continuities. The anime implies Beerus was surpassed, although it was never confirmed, he was said to have less physical strength than Vermouth. And the SSBKK was not when Beerus was implied to have been surpassed, like you said it was Beerus not believing the growth rate of Goku. There is no debate for the anime, and probably will be retconned if it ever comes back.

But it's a whole different situation in the manga, Beerus was compared to Vegito Blue, Broly(in the movie, and his existence was acknowledged briefly in the manga) and yet still is confirmed to be way beyond them, they are fodder to him. He doesn't need UI because he has UE that suit him better.
---

I feel the Granola situation came about something like this :

Toyo: there is still no clear victor between Broly and Jiren aside of headcanon because we never addressed it directly and had them fight two different OP techniques, and people still debate whether Kid Buu or Buuhan is stronger, even though you were indirectly clear, not to mention people thinking Z base Goku beats Freeza even after BoG explicitly talked about that... so how about for the next guy we leave no fuckin room for doubt, we have the dragon make him the strongest bar Beerus and Whis who are still beyond their scope?
Toriyama: sure, nice, that should work and make things crystal clear. Whoever makes the wish, will be the top dog, there is no way around it.

Fandom: Broly is strongest.

[ZeroNeonix]

It's weird how different the manga and anime are from each other. Hopefully, if the anime returns and adapts the manga, they can be a little more consistent.

[Jinto]

Goku and Vegeta should have surpassed Beerus a long time ago. Beerus was nervous when he saw the Blue/Kaioken combination. But okay, maybe he was more nervous about the rate or Goku's growth rather than his current power. Even if they still weren't equals then, Jiren was described as being more powerful than a God of Destruction, and Ultra Instinct Goku is stronger than Jiren. Don't know how they stack up against Whis, though. Does the manga even acknowledge Broly? I don't recall him getting a mention.

Of course, at the end of the day, we all know the most powerful fighter is the one Goku fights last. Everyone is as strong as they need to be to serve the plot and build tension. If Beerus ever has a rematch with Goku, it doesn't matter if it makes logical sense. He will be the strongest. Maybe they'll give him Ultra Instinct, since Whis said he was trying unsuccessfully to teach Beerus that technique for a while.

Or maybe they'll never have a rematch, and it will be another Jackie Chun situation. Maybe Beerus will keep blowing off Goku in order to save face. That'd be funny, and very on brand for Dragon Ball.

You are mixing continuities. The anime implies Beerus was surpassed, although it was never confirmed, he was said to have less physical strength than Vermouth. And the SSBKK was not when Beerus was implied to have been surpassed, like you said it was Beerus not believing the growth rate of Goku. There is no debate for the anime, and probably will be retconned if it ever comes back.

But it's a whole different situation in the manga, Beerus was compared to Vegito Blue, Broly(in the movie, and his existence was acknowledged briefly in the manga) and yet still is confirmed to be way beyond them, they are fodder to him. He doesn't need UI because he has UE that suit him better.
---

I feel the Granola situation came about something like this :

Toyo: there is still no clear victor between Broly and Jiren aside of headcanon because we never addressed it directly and had them fight two different OP techniques, and people still debate whether Kid Buu or Buuhan is stronger, even though you were indirectly clear, not to mention people thinking Z base Goku beats Freeza even after BoG explicitly talked about that... so how about for the next guy we leave no fuckin room for doubt, we have the dragon make him the strongest bar Beerus and Whis who are still beyond their scope?
Toriyama: sure, nice, that should work and make things crystal clear. Whoever makes the wish, will be the top dog, there is no way around it.

Fandom: Broly is strongest.

I understand the intent with the wish but the execution is just dumb and makes no sense narratively speaking.
We are 6 arc after the 70% Beerus, 5 arc after Whis said that if Goku and Vegeta worked together they could beat Beerus, 4 arc after the fusion is implied to be stronger than Beerus, 3 arc after Jiren is confirmed stronger than a GoD (and don't give me the "battle power"), 2 arc after another fusion with Goku telling Broly he is stronger than Beerus, 1 arc after MUI stomp a freaking goat infused with unlimited MUI of an angel.

And now I'm supposed to believe MUI is 2 TIER below GoD ? And where does that put the fusion ? Since everyone seems to believe that fusion is weaker than MUI
I also think Toyo retconed himself since there is a recent interview with him stating Broly as one of the 3 Goku had yet to surpass.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Things work out a lot easier for me personally if you assume the differences between the strongest fighters lately have all been pretty much relative to that of Beerus and other Gods of Destruction. No real clear edge in overall power because they're just that close to each other.

Enough so that you can say "potentially stronger than a God of Destruction?!" and be technically right, but not by any noticeable margin.

[Koitsukai]

I understand the intent with the wish but the execution is just dumb and makes no sense narratively speaking.
We are 6 arc after the 70% Beerus, 5 arc after Whis said that if Goku and Vegeta worked together they could beat Beerus, 4 arc after the fusion is implied to be stronger than Beerus, 3 arc after Jiren is confirmed stronger than a GoD (and don't give me the "battle power"), 2 arc after another fusion with Goku telling Broly he is stronger than Beerus, 1 arc after MUI stomp a freaking goat infused with unlimited MUI of an angel.

And now I'm supposed to believe MUI is 2 TIER below GoD ? And where does that put the fusion ? Since everyone seems to believe that fusion is weaker than MUI
I also think Toyo retconed himself since there is a recent interview with him stating Broly as one of the 3 Goku had yet to surpass.

Sure, there were several moments when the reader was lead to believe the current threat or power level was above even Beerus, but never beyond reasonable doubt. They always left a small window to take that back.

-The 70% thing was back when there were no plans for a series or even a sequel, thus being only in the movie. Also, it could now be seen as the 70% of whatever he chose to use against SSG.

-Fighting together to beat Beerus can be seen as a way to get the two fuckers to actually help each other rather than an indisputable statement about power.

-Vegito Blue was only guessed by an unreliable source. You can easily backtrack it, and I used to believe that statement was true, mind you.

-Jiren was never said to be above Beerus in the manga, only above Vermouth, there's nothing wrong with that, except it makes Vermouth look like an ant in comparison to Beerus. And for what it's worth, if the GoDs are always in UE just like the angels are always in UI, then not even with that Vermouth can beat Jiren. The Kanji used for battle power is the same used in the Namek arc, so there's no reading between the lines of 'battle power'. Jiren>Vermouth.

-Broly, again, was compared to Beerus by somebody who hadn't witnessed his full power. And Goku was dead wrong, we know that now, so how can we explain that if he in fact was there for the Exhibition Match? Beerus wasn't going all out, even though they were advised to go all out. Apparently, he doesn't need to do that in order to come out on top.

- Moro was infused with a trainee angel's abilities, not an actual angel, not by a Whis like creature, but a much weaker one. And he couldn't even use that power in its entirety. Goku would have died if MORO73 got a similar boost he received from the technique.

And fusion is below Moro arc UI Goku. That much is said and shown, he took the strongest ever out in less time than Gogeta, who spammed ki blasts, super attacks, melee blows and still had a raging beast in front of him... Goku put Moro out in 4 blows and broke his wrist just by standing there... After giving him a senzu.

All in all, this arc is really where Beerus gets his dick stretched out beyond logic and stuff starts looking dumb. He happens to be so much stronger than even Granola that renders his bout with the other GoDs just like an uncle playing with his nephews (we know where Jiren and Vermouth stand, we've seen how a way weaker Goku beat MORO73 who probably can rape Vermouth, yet the Exhibition Match seemed pretty even). And also his excitement in fighting SSG Goku seems faked by now. I don't think anybody expected Beerus to still be so much stronger in this arc, but it is what it is.

And no, Toyo never said anything about Broly, the interview is badly subbed. That was his editor, throwing names around, and Toyo does not acknowledge it. He even says, by the end of the interview, after his editor mentioned Broly, that this arc has the 3 strongest in the universe duking it out, meaning the chapters 72 to 76.

[Thani]

I mean, as of now, the only logical explanation is that Beerus can just one shot all the other Gods of Destruction (sans maybe Quitela) despite him being bloodied and exhausted after finishing fighting Rumush in the Battle Royale. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Koitsukai]

I mean, as of now, the only logical explanation is that Beerus can just one shot all the other Gods of Destruction (sans maybe Quitela) despite him being bloodied and exhausted after finishing fighting Rumush in the Battle Royale. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, we know how weak one of them is (weaker than Jiren who is now weaker than bla bla...). We've seen characters casually defeating people much stronger than Jiren... And Beerus is much stronger than them.

I mean, take Moro arc UI Goku, if 4 blows was all that was needed to put Moro73 down, one should suffice to take down Vermouth... And that Goku probably cannot touch Beerus, heck current Goku probably can't do that either.

[Mr Baggins]

How did a 4 year old thread get revived?

Anyway, I don't think the manga has ever really contradicted itself here. Beerus was always made out to be the strongest God of Destruction alongside his rival Quitela, not to mention he's got both UE and a lesser UI going for him. Jiren is known to have surpassed Belmod, but Belmod was forced to play dirty in the exhibition match against Beerus (which would invariably imply some level of inferiority).

Also, Chapter 27 blatantly spells out how much stronger Beerus is compared to his fellow destroyers. He tells Vegeta that he wouldn't surpass him "in a million years" at his current rate, but then says Vegeta would pass for a God of Destruction candidate in another universe. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

[Jinto]

How did a 4 year old thread get revived?

Anyway, I don't think the manga has ever really contradicted itself here. Beerus was always made out to be the strongest God of Destruction alongside his rival Quitela, not to mention he's got both UE and a lesser UI going for him. Jiren is known to have surpassed Belmod, but Belmod was forced to play dirty in the exhibition match against Beerus (which would invariably imply some level of inferiority).

Also, Chapter 27 blatantly spells out how much stronger Beerus is compared to his fellow destroyers. He tells Vegeta that he wouldn't surpass him "in a million years" at his current rate, but then says Vegeta would pass for a God of Destruction candidate in another universe. Doesn't get any clearer than that.

Not really, Whis stated that Jiren was stronger than the GoD who had better physical ability than Beerus.
Not only that but Beerus struggled against the other GoD, he fled and felt threatened enough to use an imperfect UI, he barely got out of U3 GoD grab and i highly doubt his injuries are from Quitela alone. It is inconsistent to this arc implication that Beerus would have one shot every other GoD.

The million year statement can be attributed to Beerus's cockiness.
It would be better to confirm that Beerus trained off screen or that UE truly raise your power indefinitely via any damage you get tying it nicely to Beerus tanking many attack.

[Mr Baggins]

Not really, Whis stated that Jiren was stronger than the GoD who had better physical ability than Beerus.

You're mixing up continuities. The only thing stated definitively in the manga is that Jiren surpasses his own God of Destruction, and even then, Toppo was oddly specific about it being "based on combat skill/battle power alone". Take that as you will.

Not only that but Beerus struggled against the other GoD

He struggled against all of them ganging up on him simultaneously, and even then, he didn't start struggling until his Ultra Instinct started to fail him. That's a massive, massive difference. Beerus's "million years" statement would only further support it.

It's been abundantly clear since the Universe Survival arc that Beerus was out of their league, even if I was personally less sure about the idea of UI Goku remaining inferior to him. The manga was never all that ambiguous about it, really. I'd invite everyone to re-read these chapters before claiming inconsistencies in the narrative.

[Xeogran]

Why on Earth is Broly still on top of any list by 2022??

MORO73 was already stated to be stronger than him by virtue of being the strongest ever met by Goku, and that was like 15 chapters ago, having been surpassed by like 5 different people as of today.

Goku and Vegeta are training Broly in the movie which logically happens after Granolah. So they still see him as a respectable fighter worth their time, even when he is in base. Anyhow Broly is getting a boost after that training session.

[Koitsukai]

Why on Earth is Broly still on top of any list by 2022??

MORO73 was already stated to be stronger than him by virtue of being the strongest ever met by Goku, and that was like 15 chapters ago, having been surpassed by like 5 different people as of today.

Goku and Vegeta are training Broly in the movie which logically happens after Granolah. So they still see him as a respectable fighter worth their time, even when he is in base. Anyhow Broly is getting a boost after that training session.

Sure, he has great potential, but how does that put him on top even before this arc is over and the new movie even takes place?