Future Trunks or Son Gokuu?

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:06 pm

I ask because when Future Trunks tests Goku with his sword Goku blocks it with just his finger but then states that Trunks was not trying.

Who was stronger between the two?

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:36 pm

superstar wrote:I ask because when Future Trunks tests Goku with his sword Goku blocks it with just his finger but then states that Trunks was not trying.

Who was stronger between the two?

Most likely Goku. I know fighting experience usually doesn't play into terms with DB, but Goku has that under his belt as opposed to Trunks who has only trained with Gohan and survived fights with the Jinzôningen.

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:58 pm

Well I have to go with Trunks in this case. Trunks EASILY killed Freeza and his Father.The way Trunks killed them was above anything that Goku has done.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:34 pm

superstar wrote:Well I have to go with Trunks in this case. Trunks EASILY killed Freeza and his Father.The way Trunks killed them was above anything that Goku has done.

Bull. Trunks did nothing that SSJ Goku on Namek couldn't have done.

Maker777 · Post by **Maker777** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:49 pm

Bull. Trunks did nothing that SSJ Goku on Namek couldn't have done.

He did the Burning Attack or what ever its called on Freeza. Goku cant do that.

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:49 pm

Rocketman wrote:Bull. Trunks did nothing that SSJ Goku on Namek couldn't have done.

Oh really?

Trunks EASILY handed an upgraded Freeza his ass while holding back. I recall Son Gokuu having trouble with a weaker Freeza on Namek.

We know Gokuu became stronger after the fight but I doubt no stronger than Trunks.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:49 pm

My guess is they would've been dead even if they went all-out. Considering Trunks has had 3-4 years to train as a SSJ (though it'd be pretty limited amounts considering he and Bulma had to avoid the Androids at all costs while building the time machine), while Goku had up to a year of training on Yardrat, my simple guess is they would have equal power. Goku did say Trunks wasn't going all-out, so if Goku was at his maximum, it's easy to see why he could deflect Trunks' sword with just his finger.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:08 am

superstar wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Bull. Trunks did nothing that SSJ Goku on Namek couldn't have done.
Oh really?

Trunks EASILY handed an upgraded Freeza his ass while holding back. I recall Son Gokuu having trouble with a weaker Freeza on Namek.

Freeza was at 50% or less on Earth. Also, remember Goku wasn't going for the kill on Namek.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:13 am

Goku only had a small amount of trouble against Freeza on Namek while Freeza was at Full Power. I just scanned through the manga...Freeza only got two good hits on Goku at Full Power. One being his first punch at full power, and the blow that blew Goku in the water. Plus, Freeza's full power only lasted a small amount of time. His ki went down drastically (in 5 minutes), and Goku totally kicked his ass.

Not only that, but Goku was fighting Freeza pre-Super Saiyan as well, using Kaio-ken 20x, putting strain on his body. Plus he used the Genki Dama on him, which also put strain on his body.

Trunks was at full power when fighting Freeza, and killed him while he was off guard (when avoiding Trunks' Burning Attack).

Also, Goku easily takes care of Freeza in the original timeline, the timeline where Trunks doesn't alter the future, as stated when Goku says "I was planning to clobber him for good this time", confident he could win, unlike most times when he is modest and doesn't brag about his power.

Yep..I'm just about done.

But..to get back on topic...I'd say that Goku is stronger, basically because he knows how to train, and finds flaws and such, giving him an edge. An example would be Trunks' Super Saiyan Stage II, and Goku's Full Power Super Saiyan. Goku found that the muscle mass decreases speed, while Trunks didn't understand until someone blatently told him...

There we go.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:29 am

Rocketman wrote:
superstar wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Bull. Trunks did nothing that SSJ Goku on Namek couldn't have done.
Oh really?

Trunks EASILY handed an upgraded Freeza his ass while holding back. I recall Son Gokuu having trouble with a weaker Freeza on Namek.
Freeza was at 50% or less on Earth. Also, remember Goku wasn't going for the kill on Namek.

That's never actually confirmed. For all we know, Freeza was stronger than he was at 100% on Namek. The doctors operating on him did say he'd be "just as strong and fierce" as before. Besides, Freeza was more machine than...alien, so maybe he couldn't buff up and was always at maximum power.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:43 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:That's never actually confirmed. For all we know, Freeza was stronger than he was at 100% on Namek. The doctors operating on him did say he'd be "just as strong and fierce" as before. Besides, Freeza was more machine than...alien, so maybe he couldn't buff up and was always at maximum power.

Mecha Freeza isn't at max. When Yamcha wigs out over sensing Freeza's power, Gohan says something like "That's nothing, he can get much stronger."

Somebody with the manga check for the exact wording.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:55 am

That's my cue!

Here ya go:

Yamcha: Freeza's chi...He's THAT powerful...?
Gohan: This is nothing...He gets way stronger than this...!

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:04 am

Saiyan wrote:Goku only had a small amount of trouble against Freeza on Namek while Freeza was at Full Power. I just scanned through the manga...Freeza only got two good hits on Goku at Full Power. One being his first punch at full power, and the blow that blew Goku in the water. Plus, Freeza's full power only lasted a small amount of time. His ki went down drastically (in 5 minutes), and Goku totally kicked his ass.

The fact that Goku could not beat (KO) Freeza in five minutes on Namek and Trunks killing Freeza and his entire fleet in an "INSTANT" shows the difference in power.

When Trunks tested Goku's Super Saiya-jin power Goku states that he was holding back.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:26 am

And where exactly does it state that Goku wasn't holding back either?

I have to say...you're really dense. Based on all of the evidence we've given you, you still don't get it.

And to reply to your last post..Freeza WASN'T AT FULL POWER when facing Trunks, and was CAUGHT OFF GUARD.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:42 am

I don't think it's ever said in the series, one way or another. In a general sense I would guess they're around the "same" power level (by which I mean, the same amount on million battle powers), but I would say Goku is still stronger. Trunks seemed pretty confident that Goku would be able to help him defeat the artificial humans, I doubt he would have that high of an opinion about someone weaker than himself.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:28 am

Doesn't matter either way. Goku is a better fighter, and has the IT. He would win if they fought. Anyways...Goku probably got a huge zenkai after he crashed on Yardrat(sp?). Plus he said he trained there a bit as well, right? Goku is just better.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:00 am

Super Star wrote:I ask because when Future Trunks tests Goku with his sword Goku blocks it with just his finger but then states that Trunks was not trying.

Who was stronger between the two?

Well, there is no outright confirmation statement as to who is the superior of the two, and that "sword on finger" exchange tells us little to nothing.

Rocket Man wrote:
Freeza was at 50% or less on Earth. Also, remember Goku wasn't going for the kill on Namek.

There is no proof of that statement. For all we know (and it is likely), Freeza had no need to buff himself up because his upgraded cybernetic body would be able to bring out his full power output without increasing mass. The same applies to how Goku and Gohan became stronger as Super Saiyans than Trunks as the Super Saiyan Third Grade, despite his buffed up "power based" appearance. We don't know what changes applied to Freeza's new form, so it is stupid to assume the same rules applied. Toriyama-sensei wouldn't have Freeza make the statement that his strength increased without good reason behind it.

And how was Goku not going for the kill? He just watched his best friend die. His decision to "let Freeza go" may well have been spur the moment, nothing part of his prior plans. Just his naiviette besting him at the moment. These things are not so translucent.

Saiya'jin wrote:Goku only had a small amount of trouble against Freeza on Namek while Freeza was at Full Power. I just scanned through the manga...Freeza only got two good hits on Goku at Full Power. One being his first punch at full power, and the blow that blew Goku in the water. Plus, Freeza's full power only lasted a small amount of time.

Yeah, but Goku's attacks weren't really getting through whilst Freeza was still holding onto his true power. Goku's hits and Freeza's hits were equally effective. Heck, the Kamehameha vs. Body Air Slam struggle was evenly matched (except Freeza manuvered around and owned Goku in the face).

They were virtually equal before Freeza's Ki burned out, that is the truth.

Saiya'jin wrote:Not only that, but Goku was fighting Freeza pre-Super Saiyan as well, using Kaio-ken 20x, putting strain on his body. Plus he used the Genki Dama on him, which also put strain on his body.

Yeah? And Freeza got hit by the Genki-Dama. You see the guy? He looked like he was in as bad of, if not worse, shape than even Goku.

We have no idea how the battle would have unfolded had neither been injured prior to reaching their respective peaks, so it's not worth speculating upon.

Rocket Man wrote:
Mecha Freeza isn't at max. When Yamcha wigs out over sensing Freeza's power, Gohan says something like "That's nothing, he can get much stronger."

Somebody with the manga check for the exact wording.

And...who's to say the Freeza didn't uncork the entirety of his strength when he attacked Trunks? Everything happened so fast, there was no chance for anyone to say "He's at his full power!" (The ONE TIME I wish there was some useless side-character commentary...).

Again, we don't know the properties of his Cybernetic body, so we can't judge these things in such a way. Maybe he wasn't at full power, but maybe he was. Both possibilities are open! But Freeza explicitly said he had become stronger, and there's no reason to believe otherwise, and that statement wouldn't be included unless it was to get the point across that Trunks was easily stronger than a powered up Freeza, who prior to the power up had matched evenly with Super Saiyan Goku.

Anyways, when Goku "faced" Trunks, his body was not in the same pathetic condition it was in on Namek, and he had taken a year and 260 days to train and master the transformation, as well as grow stronger. So he was at least equal to or stronger to Trunks, who was ahead of how Goku was on Namek.

I slightly altered the names of every person I quoted, in very insignificant ways for my amusement so that I could write this at the end of my post and make people go back and waste their time checking.

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:39 am

Duo wrote:And...who's to say the Freeza didn't uncork the entirety of his strength when he attacked Trunks? Everything happened so fast, there was no chance for anyone to say "He's at his full power!" (The ONE TIME I wish there was some useless side-character commentary...).

I think things happened a little too fast for Freeza to buff up to max. (I use the term 'buff up' loosely here) There was no indication that he increased his power at all. It's like my English prof always says. When giving evidence, always give it from what's in the text, not what isn't in the text.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:29 am

To be honest, I think Trunks had it pretty easy in his battle against Freeza. For one, Trunks caught him off guard when he turned SSJ, and either he attacked too quickly for Freeza to "buff up" to 100% full power, or his disability after the battle against Goku prevented him from doing so. What Trunks did against him was pretty much what Goku could have done on Namek.

However, as far as I know Goku, didn't do much extra training on his way back to Earth, so I don't think he increased in power, so I'd call them even, but the advantage IMO goes to Goku.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:34 am

Well, I was going to reply to several people, but Duo covered most of that for me. So I'll just reply to him to cover that stuff!

Well, there is no outright confirmation statement as to who is the superior of the two, and that "sword on finger" exchange tells us little to nothing.

Well, after his first attack where he held back, Trunks did attack again, without holding back. And Goku blocked it all with ease, and Trunks was impressed. So that tells me that Goku was a good bit stronger than him. Probably as much so as he was over Freeza.

There is no proof of that statement. For all we know (and it is likely), Freeza had no need to buff himself up because his upgraded cybernetic body would be able to bring out his full power output without increasing mass. The same applies to how Goku and Gohan became stronger as Super Saiyans than Trunks as the Super Saiyan Third Grade, despite his buffed up "power based" appearance. We don't know what changes applied to Freeza's new form, so it is stupid to assume the same rules applied. Toriyama-sensei wouldn't have Freeza make the statement that his strength increased without good reason behind it.

And how was Goku not going for the kill? He just watched his best friend die. His decision to "let Freeza go" may well have been spur the moment, nothing part of his prior plans. Just his naiviette besting him at the moment. These things are not so translucent.

Agreed. I'll get into this more with this next quote...

I think things happened a little too fast for Freeza to buff up to max. (I use the term 'buff up' loosely here) There was no indication that he increased his power at all. It's like my English prof always says. When giving evidence, always give it from what's in the text, not what isn't in the text.

Use what's in the text? Well, simple enough. I'll use 17 and 18. They're living beings enhanced with cyberntics. Just like Freeza. You can't sense their power though because it's entirely arificial. Freeza's power was only partly artificial. Thus, they could sense the natural power. But they couldn't sense the power from his cybernetic parts. Thus, no matter how strong they THINK he is, he's stronger. Just because they only felt him at what they remembered as a fraction of his power doesn't mean that the cyberntics weren't making him stronger than his previous Full Power back on Namek at that very instant.

Or, as mentioned by Duo, there's no evidence that he didn't increase his power to his new maximum during the fight with Trunks. In fact, common sense tells us that he did. He was, after all, fighting a Super Saiya-jin, something he was now HIGHLY affraid of. Do you really see him NOT using his full power to attack Trunks? Things didn't happen so fast that he couldn't have powered up during one of his attacks. Also, as Duo said, there'd be no reason for Toriyama-sama to mention that Freeza was now stronger than ever if he didn't intend that power to be used to show that Trunks was even stronger than a Freeza that had become even stronger since Namek.

Anyways, when Goku "faced" Trunks, his body was not in the same pathetic condition it was in on Namek, and he had taken a year and 260 days to train and master the transformation, as well as grow stronger. So he was at least equal to or stronger to Trunks, who was ahead of how Goku was on Namek.

Agreed, again. Goku had plenty of time to train and improve since Namek. I seriously doubt he didn't get a good deal stronger.

Don't really want to drag up a PL debate here (but that's what this is already, really) but I'm going to do a small 'comparison' of sorts to what I think they were. Note that the starting numbers are randomly picked and the others are made to scale.

If Freeza and Goku's maximum's on Namek had been 20,000,000 each then Cyborg Freeza was probably 22,000,000 SSJ Trunks 25,000,000 and SSJ Goku 28,000,000.

Kanzenshuu

Future Trunks or Son Gokuu?

Future Trunks or Son Gokuu?

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