Saiyan power problem

[ssj4goku1992]

Hi guys,

I wanted to bring into account a huge plothole that i am seeing in the future. From what we are seeing, the future of Dragon Ball (at least the next movie) revolves around the explanation of the saiyan power and their history. But... this has a huge problem... There is no overwhelming saiyan power that needs to be explained.

The problem with all that's happening right now... Is that saiyans are a weak race. An absolutely incredibly weak race compared to what we are seeing now in Dragon Ball Super. They are an absolutely weak race compared to the Namek saga in DBZ actually.

Their own general which was second in command only to King Vegeta, and after his death to Prince Vegeta, Nappa had a power level of 5000... And he was an elite saiyan, the general of the entire saiyan army... Every other goddamn saiyan was below him. Everybody had a power level lower than 5000 by quite some margin, Nappa was VERY powerful compared to an average saiyan...

Now add into account Prince Vegeta's 17 000 power level which was absolutely stupenduous compared to an average saiyan, and the fact that there were far more powerful warriors in Frieza's army... Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, the entire Ginyu force... When Goku handled Recoome easily, who had a power level of 40 000, Vegeta and the memebers of the Ginyu force started to think that Goku was the Legendary Super Saiyan... It was inconceivable for them that a saiyan could get to 40 000+ level. It MUST have been a super saiyan in their eyes. That damn legend was actually true in that moment for them...

Now do we all see how retarded it is to talk about the power of the saiyan race in our context with this kind of power levels on the map? Frieza was a paranoid and afraid of that goddamn legend (seeing their zenkai ability to become stronger after being close to death) but more of their Oozaru transformation that increased their powers by 10. All of that combined made for a MAYBE bothersome problem in the future... But the saiyan race is actually weak as shit. Toei and everybody is behaving like they were some mighty beings that need their powers explained... No, Goku, Vegeta and their kids are some mighty saiyans that need their powers explained. Otherwise there are no such thing as these mighty saiyans.

If they want to play this arc, they need to come with an explanation for some ancient saiyans power, how their power was diluted in time, i don't know something. Toei built a Dragon Ball department. Really, it's time to take it once again from 0 and build meaningful, well thought stories, not stories full of bullshit plotholes and inconsistencies... The past is the past, we need to get into the future!

[emperior]

Saiyans were always considered a very strong and OP race. Sure, Super introduced some absolutely strong Saiyans from U6 but it's sort of implied they are this strong because they evolved differently, and it's been made clear ever since Cabba was introduced that there are some very big changes between the Saiyans from U6 and U7.
The new movie is introducing a new Saiyan, but we don't know if he will be from one of the erased universes destroyed long ago by Zeno, and that Super Shenron should have restored recently, or if he is the first ever Saiyan born and eventually his power got diluted through his descendants, who still kept some of his insane traits through their OP genetic.
The point is that there are many ways Toriyama could make a new powerful Saiyan foe work without retconning what we know of the Saiyans, specifically the U7 Saiyans, who, as you said, weren't even among the strongest races at the time of Planet Vegeta's destruction. Even then, this wouldn't be a plot-hole but more of a retcon.

[ssj4goku1992]

Exactly, there are definitely ways to make this happen and fit in the story. But we need a serious thought out explanation, not a "they just trained" type of explanation.

They were considered a very strong and mighty race in the context of saiyan saga. When we evolved to namek saga we discovered that they weren't nearly as powerful as we thought and that on a galactic scale there were others far powerful.

Really, no more retcons. Somebody competent needs to sit down and write a damn story that makes sense and doesn't contradict anything anymore. We aren't 5 and Toei and Toriyama should have realised by the huge DBS screenings in Latin America that the now grown up fans of DBZ make a huge portion of the fanbase.

If they were really smart they would make us the target audience, not the japanese children...

[Koitsukai]

I agree and disagree. Yeah, sure, we went to Namek and found out that Vegeta was always among the weakest of Freeza's army, was treated like a child while being by far the strongest saiyajin, but you forget that he is somewhat young for a saiyajin, he was around 30 (they live longer lives and are in perfect shape up to 80s years old) when he got to Namek and died with an incredible power level, only second to Freeza, a prodigy of a stronger race. But Vegeta's power level against Goku was 18.000, 180.000 as a Giant Ape, much more than the Ginyu tokusentai... just one saiyajin. Nappa was 5.000 or 7.000... that would make his ohzaru form 50.000 or 70.000 only surpassed by Captain Ginyu. I refuse to talk about Raditz, don't speak ill of the dead. Damn, Cui could have knocked down Ohzaru Raditz.

About the rest of them, their planet was destroyed 25 years ago, we don't know just how strong they were, maybe the strongest one, the king, was around 10.000? nothing next to Zarbon or even Cui, but they would have become waay stronger after 25 years (just like their children did), I mean that's a lot of time. The majority of the race probably didn't grow stronger because they faced somewhat equal threats (Goku was sent to a weak planet, a tendency to play it safe), not getting the full power of the zenkai boost(get beat up close to death and grow stronger) they used to stare at the moon and conquer planets with ease, and they even worked in groups. Goku started Z with a PL of 400 or so and 10 years later he was in the sagans

So yes, they aren't born as the strongest in the universe, but they have an overwhelming potential, and every new generation seems to be stronger than the previous one.

[ssj4goku1992]

Koitsukai, you are making some valid points.
Though, you are treating the saiyans as if they were a young race who was just born. In the saiyan and namek saga we find out pretty much everything about them.

They are a powerful warrior race who existed for quite some time and were Frieza's henchmen as many others. Thats it. They would have had quite some zenkais in their lifetime being in all those battles but we re talking of power levels less than 5k - 8k... Wouldn't their own general be far stronger if this potential existed? Wouldn't have they talked or remembered other saiyans who got much stronger if they could? Would they still be Frieza's bitch?...

Everything was ok in the saiyan saga with the huge power levels. Goku was the protagonist and was using all kinds of special training to get stronger and Vegeta was the child prodigy. After that it was their sons.

But now to talk about the entire saiyan race's power like they were some killers and not weaker than 5k is stupid.
You need to bring some explanation to make everything fit in the story otherwise it's bullshit...

[Koitsukai]

I know what you are saying, if they would bring back Planet Vegeta, saiyajins wouldn't be able to conquer Earth even if the aliens and hybrids were dead, actually Krillin could enslave the whole race.
I think they screw up by saying Vegeta was already stronger than his father when he was a kid, that puts a low roof on the whole race, when he could have been FP Zarbon tier, having an elite special force around 20.000, 25.000 (Goku surpassed every elite saiyajin warrior when he learnt kaioken at age 24, Gohan at age 10). And Bardock's special (i know its not cannon but fuck it, awesome movie) puts him closer to Dodoria than any other saiyajin at the time, so that movie didn't help either.
I guess the king, like happened in human history, tried to protect his throne by not letting anyone be able to become stronger(Broly), so when you have to conquer a weakass planet, you send a 5 men team so no one will grow particularly stronger and the ranks will remain at the same mediocre level. The elite warrior, low-class warrior stuff ended up being BS to control the ranks apparently. Pure headcannon of course, like everything else.

They were clearly not great, but a warrior race probably is restarted every couple of centuries, they love war, they love fights, and maybe like the Yamoshi incident, they tend to fight each other, so maybe they destroyed themselves regularly and have to start over every now and then. I mean, I don't think King Vegeta was elected.
In human history we could compare it with our scientific kwnowledge, we found out the Earth is round 400 years ago but 2500 years ago, it was a well known fact.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The whole notion of "Saiyan power" is most likely meant to point to how they can become so strong so fast in spite of their weak roots; Goku was pathetically weak for his race when he was born, yet he's now the strongest mortal thus far, one that has surpassed so many gods, all in such a short span of time relative to the cosmic scale.

All the Saiyans we've seen have potential for massive power, with their main limiters being their own problems and issues.

Toriyama has gone on record stating that Universe 7 Saiyans often died in battle at younger ages, which is why they haven't taken advantage of their Zenkai boosts until their demise at the hands of Freeza.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

The only theory that I can buy that can fit into this, is that Freeza either kept them weak collectively because he was scared of their potential to a Super Saiyan. They only saw themselves as strong because they were violent and addicted to fighting while also having a high mortality rate and a small population according to Toriyama. Most didn't survive to supass king Vegeta and king Vegeta most likely did not do that much field work in his position. The only time they really jumped up was from characters like Bardock easily got to 10k in a shorter time than King Vegeta did judging by their ages and/or ranks. King Vegeta may not have even need to be very strong to be king. Just that he won the war that got them off planet Sadla and onto the Tuffle planet.

Though to be honest I don't like the direction the U6 Saiyans have, where they are just powerful just because, with hypothetical backgrounds, arbitrarily equated potential claims and being powerful fighters because they're the good ones. They seem to just be strong "just because" despite their civilization being very meek by comparison and I still believe they only are that strong because they exist in the story where all of the transformations already exist in the narrative and thus the struggle that was written for U7 simply in between when Toriyama came up with new forms, is why the U6 Saiyans or (reboot of the Saiyans as they appear to me) are "strong just becuse they are".

[Yedis]

The movie will reveal more, so I don't want to make a too rash of a judgement.


Saiyans on Planet Vegeta were weak in the grand scheme of things. They couldn't even compete with lower tier Frieza henchman in the Bardock Special. Nappa was considered Elite, and he was surpassed by the Earthings in the Namek Saga.

If Goku's opponent in the movie is a Prehistoric Saiyan (rumor) that means he can at least fight with Current Base Goku. Maybe Toriyama and co are going to tell us that Saiyans over time became significantly weaker until Goku and Vegeta?

[ssj4goku1992]

Yeah, basically it's all headcanon. We are trying to come up with theories for a plothole/retcon thing... Because the authors don't even bother to come with some decent damn explanations when they go into further arcs. If they aren't thought out from the beginning or at least made an effort for them to fit with the already established events, that's what we get... A show full of inconsistencies, plotholes and retcons...

It's our fault too. If we would explain our dissaproval anytime that something like this happened on their official social media pages they would give a damn and write a coherent narrative...

We live in the social media age, we could use it i guess..