Director for the finale of Super breaks down Jiren's character during the final stages of the TOP

[JazzMazz]

Megumi Ishitani in response to a question on twitter a while back broke down the creative choices made in episode 131, as well as Jiren's character.

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]
How do people feel about the her explanation of the creative choices around the episode, as well as her explanation of Jiren's character?

[Miracles]

Nothing new really.

[Kataphrut]

She's an incredibly talented director and it'd be great to have her come back for more DB projects in the future.

I don't think I'm learning anything I didn't already get from the finale, but that in turn is a great example of how good direction and storyboarding can elevate a concept. We have the director basically explaining the intent behind the sequence in a thousand words, and I'm like "yes, I know that because you already did such a damn fine job showing it in the first place."

[sintzu]

Jiren was boring for the majority of the arc but those last episodes really made up for it and turned Jiren into a very likable character. I wish some of those developments happened earlier as fans wouldn't have had a negative image of him for as long as they did.

[Lord Beerus]

This is the kind of subtle, yet wonderfully nuanced and layered kind of storytelling Dragon Ball, but more specifically modern Dragon Ball, could certainly use more of. I really hope that Megumi Ishitani come back to direct and/or storyboard Dragon Ball projects in the future because her eye for detail and visually storytelling is remarkable. And that tweet just goes to show how much thought she put towards the final episode.

I understood the angle they were going for with Jiren, but I wish they didn't take as long as they did. While the payoff was fantastic, the build up to it could have/should have been better.

[Marlowe89]

It's nothing new, but it's an appreciable explanation of Jiren's characterization in 131 and does a fantastic job of exemplifying how Toei brought their A-game to the final episode of the arc in virtually every aspect, whether that was through visual storytelling, fluid animation and good art, well-paced beats or competently developed character dynamics. Nothing here was unaccounted for.

If the show ever returns, this is the kind of standard I'm going to hold it to. Some might consider that unfair judging from the staff involved, but it's not a precedent that they themselves haven't established or shown themselves incapable of. If they can do it now, they can do it going forward, and I hope they will.

[majinwarman]

This is the kind of subtle, yet wonderfully nuanced and layered kind of storytelling Dragon Ball, but more specifically modern Dragon Ball, could certainly use more of. I really hope that Megumi Ishitani come back to direct and/or storyboard Dragon Ball projects in the future because her eye for detail and visually storytelling is remarkable. And that tweet just goes to show how much thought she put towards the final episode.

I understood the angle they were going for with Jiren, but I wish they didn't take as long as they did. While the payoff was fantastic, the build up to it could have/should have been better.

I agree with you. I didn't hate Jiren but it was hard not to say he was boring. The last three episodes has really improved people's opinion on him. I wish Ishitani stays with Dragon Ball and doesn't leave any time soon.

[Mister_Popo]

Jiren was boring for the majority of the arc but those last episodes really made up for it and turned Jiren into a very likable character. I wish some of those developments happened earlier as fans wouldn't have had a negative image of him for as long as they did.

I liked him for being a silent, mysterious powerhouse, an all different character than the classic talkative antagonists. But i did like how he changed as well under real threat, how he eventually lost his calm and how this was depicted.

[ekrolo2]

I think the trust theme works for say Goku and Freeza who trust each other in so far they know how one another will act. Freeza knows Goku's enough of a moron to keep his word and Goku knows Freeza's selfish enough to cooperate with him so long as he gets revived.

The thing with Jiren how his solitude is shattered by Goku's trust in others empowering him doesn't entirely work. The very reason he gets Completed UI is due to him intentionally forsaking all thoughts pertaining to anything but the battle, it's this single-minded focus which lets him surpass the GoDs, not anything his comrades do. Now, you can say "Well if Vegeta hadn't put his faith in Goku, he wouldn't have had Ki to activate UI at all!" which is true but if Goku hadn't given up all these outside stimuli, it would've been a futile gesture entirely. So Goku goes on this roller coaster where his comrades are worthwhile until we say they aren't but then are again.

[Master Xar]

I think the trust theme works for say Goku and Freeza who trust each other in so far they know how one another will act. Freeza knows Goku's enough of a moron to keep his word and Goku knows Freeza's selfish enough to cooperate with him so long as he gets revived.

The thing with Jiren how his solitude is shattered by Goku's trust in others empowering him doesn't entirely work. The very reason he gets Completed UI is due to him intentionally forsaking all thoughts pertaining to anything but the battle, it's this single-minded focus which lets him surpass the GoDs, not anything his comrades do. Now, you can say "Well if Vegeta hadn't put his faith in Goku, he wouldn't have had Ki to activate UI at all!" which is true but if Goku hadn't given up all these outside stimuli, it would've been a futile gesture entirely. So Goku goes on this roller coaster where his comrades are worthwhile until we say they aren't but then are again.

I can explain or give you my interpretation if you want, but I encourage you to go back and look for yourself and come up with your assumption and explanation for it (but pay close attention to Whis, how Goku attitude in UI, and the full context now that the tournament is done.) if you don’t want to see it. They do convey the reason very well through show and tell if you look closely (again I strongly advise looking back at the show before you look into this as it will explain too much if you can’t look at it yourself.)

[spoiler]Well that serves to the context of the perfection (or lack there of) of Goku’s UI. Whis’ perspective and explanation of Goku achieving or perfecting of his UI is simply the explanation of a perfected UI, not that Goku perfected it, it seems Whis himself didn’t expect Goku to fall out of UI.

Perhaps Goku’s is a different version of UI to the Angels entirely. Because from what ROF shows Whis UI is second nature to him. It’s not a “mode” or “state” like Goku’s. Maybe this is just Whis’ interpretation as this isn’t a version he has seen before ever even back when Goku unlocked the Omen. He still seemed to not really be sure about it, Beerus himself too, they only seem sure by observing Goku’s movements and not the look itself

Goku’s power all comes from his friends in this fight, but it’s a double-edged sword to how UI and how rage works in Dragonball.

Yes Goku has a power-up against Jiren from when he acknowledges his friends and uses them as inspiration from the battle, to strengthen his power but that is also his great weakness here, it greatly shortens the use of UI here, he is supposed to distance his emotions in battle when he is in this state as he has an active mind here similar to Whis, but because of that, and that not being second nature and natural like Whis it is also his crippling weakness for his time limit.[/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

I can explain or give you my interpretation if you want, but I encourage you to go back and look for yourself and come up with your assumption and explanation for it (but pay close attention to Whis, how Goku attitude in UI, and the full context now that the tournament is done.) if you don’t want to see it. They do convey the reason very well through show and tell if you look closely (again I strongly advise looking back at the show before you look into this as it will explain too much if you can’t look at it yourself.)

[spoiler]Well that serves to the context of the perfection (or lack there of) of Goku’s UI. Whis’ perspective and explanation of Goku achieving or perfecting of his UI is simply the explanation of a perfected UI, not that Goku perfected it, it seems Whis himself didn’t expect Goku to fall out of UI.

Perhaps Goku’s is a different version of UI to the Angels entirely. Because from what ROF shows Whis UI is second nature to him. It’s not a “mode” or “state” like Goku’s. Maybe this is just Whis’ interpretation as this isn’t a version he has seen before ever even back when Goku unlocked the Omen. He still seemed to not really be sure about it, Beerus himself too, they only seem sure by observing Goku’s movements and not the look itself

Goku’s power all comes from his friends in this fight, but it’s a double-edged sword to how UI and how rage works in Dragonball.

Yes Goku has a power-up against Jiren from when he acknowledges his friends and uses them as inspiration from the battle, to strengthen his power but that is also his great weakness here, it greatly shortens the use of UI here, he is supposed to distance his emotions in battle when he is in this state as he has an active mind here similar to Whis, but because of that, and that not being second nature and natural like Whis it is also his crippling weakness for his time limit.[/spoiler]

I don't really agree with this interpretation. For one thing, Whis has been right about the mechanics behind Ultra Instinct so far, he even knew Goku would fall out of it but he didn't expect it to backfire so heavily, he did, however, know it would backfire to some degree.

There's also no talk at all about Goku's rage making his toll greater, the series never talk about it and just uses it as a cool moment that completely contradicts previous events. Goku temporarily completes Ultra Instinct because he entirely foregoes outside stimuli that essentially act as background noise for him. Then that same background noise gives him a power boost through anger? What? Much like Super Saiyan Blue getting rage boosts, this entire development feels fundamentally at odds with the form it's being used with.

Going back to the themes, it's very obvious 130 and 131 want you to ignore 129: the message of the climax is that Goku wins because his friends help him practically and emotionally while Jiren losses because he has no one to back him up and by the time he starts to get over his self imposed limitations, it's too little too late. Hence why I think that, even if I'm supposed to think Goku's rage boost shortened his time (which is never ever said in the show) it would still be at odds with the whole message and make it even messier. So which is it, is Goku getting better because he's acting more or less like Jiren? The show does not send clear messages on this, flip-flopping at a moments notice then expecting me to make arbitrary bullshit up to have it work.

[Doctor.]

I thought it was obvious when seeing the episode. The scene conveys Jiren's arc well enough; it's good visual storytelling. I still don't think Jiren's arc is all that good or compelling, but I can at least commend the effort during the last episode.

[Master Xar]

I can explain or give you my interpretation if you want, but I encourage you to go back and look for yourself and come up with your assumption and explanation for it (but pay close attention to Whis, how Goku attitude in UI, and the full context now that the tournament is done.) if you don’t want to see it. They do convey the reason very well through show and tell if you look closely (again I strongly advise looking back at the show before you look into this as it will explain too much if you can’t look at it yourself.)

[spoiler]Well that serves to the context of the perfection (or lack there of) of Goku’s UI. Whis’ perspective and explanation of Goku achieving or perfecting of his UI is simply the explanation of a perfected UI, not that Goku perfected it, it seems Whis himself didn’t expect Goku to fall out of UI.

Perhaps Goku’s is a different version of UI to the Angels entirely. Because from what ROF shows Whis UI is second nature to him. It’s not a “mode” or “state” like Goku’s. Maybe this is just Whis’ interpretation as this isn’t a version he has seen before ever even back when Goku unlocked the Omen. He still seemed to not really be sure about it, Beerus himself too, they only seem sure by observing Goku’s movements and not the look itself

Goku’s power all comes from his friends in this fight, but it’s a double-edged sword to how UI and how rage works in Dragonball.

Yes Goku has a power-up against Jiren from when he acknowledges his friends and uses them as inspiration from the battle, to strengthen his power but that is also his great weakness here, it greatly shortens the use of UI here, he is supposed to distance his emotions in battle when he is in this state as he has an active mind here similar to Whis, but because of that, and that not being second nature and natural like Whis it is also his crippling weakness for his time limit.[/spoiler]

I don't really agree with this interpretation. For one thing, Whis has been right about the mechanics behind Ultra Instinct so far, he even knew Goku would fall out of it but he didn't expect it to backfire so heavily, he did, however, know it would backfire to some degree.

There's also no talk at all about Goku's rage making his toll greater, the series never talk about it and just uses it as a cool moment that completely contradicts previous events. Goku temporarily completes Ultra Instinct because he entirely foregoes outside stimuli that essentially act as background noise for him. Then that same background noise gives him a power boost through anger? What? Much like Super Saiyan Blue getting rage boosts, this entire development feels fundamentally at odds with the form it's being used with.

Going back to the themes, it's very obvious 130 and 131 want you to ignore 129: the message of the climax is that Goku wins because his friends help him practically and emotionally while Jiren losses because he has no one to back him up and by the time he starts to get over his self imposed limitations, it's too little too late. Hence why I think that, even if I'm supposed to think Goku's rage boost shortened his time (which is never ever said in the show) it would still be at odds with the whole message and make it even messier. So which is it, is Goku getting better because he's acting more or less like Jiren? The show does not send clear messages on this, flip-flopping at a moments notice then expecting me to make arbitrary bullshit up to have it work.

Yes, Whis has been right, but he isn’t all knowing, he expected the backfire because Goku has fallen out before due to his emotional state in UI Omen and MUI. Yes he did expect him to call out of UI from the reasons I’m about to say, but that’s all due to the explosion of anger draining him quicker.

There is no talk specifically of the rage taking it’s toll, but we can indeed infer it from Whis explanation of the state when he assumed Goku had finally mastered it or at least gotten control of the full form/technique. Whis communicates at least how UI feels emotionally and physically since he has it himself, but Goku clearly has a different version of it.

The rest of the fight plays out to show the forms flaws in how the fight plays out. Goku gets too emotional and focused in what should be an unemotional and focused and THAT’S it’s weakness even without saying it. As for SSJB having rage boosts, how Black clearly wrecks and handily defeats him clearly communicates that rage isn’t the key to mastering SSJB.

You’re thinking that 130, and 131 works against 129 when it you shoukd see from the point of view that it actually does if you look into it. You have to look at what ROF introduces the flaws with what Whis tells them that doesn’t allow them UI, Goku’s flaws and how the TOP awakened him to a flaw he gained in BOG. (Here is my link to my thread on Goku and how is character works with UI)

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42508

My point being here is that while Goku is in the right to Jiren’s wrong idea that strength comes from solitude, he himself has a lot to work on and is still very flawed when it comes to relying on his friends and his ability to distance his emotions, focus, and be serious.

[ekrolo2]

Yes, Whis has been right, but he isn’t all knowing, he expected the backfire because Goku has fallen out before due to his emotional state in UI Omen and MUI. Yes he did expect him to call out of UI from the reasons I’m about to say, but that’s all due to the explosion of anger draining him quicker.

There is no talk specifically of the rage taking it’s toll, but we can indeed infer it from Whis explanation of the state when he assumed Goku had finally mastered it or at least gotten control of the full form/technique. Whis communicates at least how UI feels emotionally and physically since he has it himself, but Goku clearly has a different version of it.

The rest of the fight plays out to show the forms flaws in how the fight plays out. Goku gets too emotional and focused in what should be an unemotional and focused and THAT’S it’s weakness even without saying it. As for SSJB having rage boosts, how Black clearly wrecks and handily defeats him clearly communicates that rage isn’t the key to mastering SSJB.

You’re thinking that 130, and 131 works against 129 when it you shoukd see from the point of view that it actually does if you look into it. You have to look at what ROF introduces the flaws with what Whis tells them that doesn’t allow them UI, Goku’s flaws and how the TOP awakened him to a flaw he gained in BOG. (Here is my link to my thread on Goku and how is character works with UI)

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42508

My point being here is that while Goku is in the right to Jiren’s wrong idea that strength comes from solitude, he himself has a lot to work on and is still very flawed when it comes to relying on his friends and his ability to distance his emotions, focus, and be serious.

You misunderstand what I mean by the rage boosts and why they shouldn't happen: they shouldn't because it mechanically doesn't make any sense. For one thing, nobody but Gohan got rage power-ups before and Super handing it out to Goku and/or Vegeta between the two versions of Super is just not understanding the original run at all. Moreover, if these forms aren't meant to be used in this way, why then does rage even give them more power? If you want to convey that rage screws up Blue and UI, why aren't they immediately losing power thanks to their weakened focus instead of getting more for brief instances? Oh, because we can't milk Gohan's rage boosts anymore so we'll hand them out to Goku and/or Vegeta.

Going back to the thematic point, ignoring entirely my rant about the mechanics behind why the rage boosts are totally stupid, the message is muddled either way. The entire climax is painted as "Goku wins because he trusts and cares about people, Jiren losses because he won't". Him getting mad over Jiren attacking his friends is meant to make us go "Fuck yeah! Beat him up Goku!", a moment of empowerment that's supposed to fit into this theme but it completely goes against another one.

Once again, either Goku is getting more powerful because he's removing these outside influences, or they're screwing his performance up. You CANNOT do both which is what Super does and it doesn't work. The funny thing is, you can easily fix this by making Goku's friends THE focus point, instead of saying he's just zeroing in on the battle, have him zero in on the trust placed in him to win as the focus point to empower him into Completed Ultra Instinct.

[Master Xar]

Yes, Whis has been right, but he isn’t all knowing, he expected the backfire because Goku has fallen out before due to his emotional state in UI Omen and MUI. Yes he did expect him to call out of UI from the reasons I’m about to say, but that’s all due to the explosion of anger draining him quicker.

There is no talk specifically of the rage taking it’s toll, but we can indeed infer it from Whis explanation of the state when he assumed Goku had finally mastered it or at least gotten control of the full form/technique. Whis communicates at least how UI feels emotionally and physically since he has it himself, but Goku clearly has a different version of it.

The rest of the fight plays out to show the forms flaws in how the fight plays out. Goku gets too emotional and focused in what should be an unemotional and focused and THAT’S it’s weakness even without saying it. As for SSJB having rage boosts, how Black clearly wrecks and handily defeats him clearly communicates that rage isn’t the key to mastering SSJB.

You’re thinking that 130, and 131 works against 129 when it you shoukd see from the point of view that it actually does if you look into it. You have to look at what ROF introduces the flaws with what Whis tells them that doesn’t allow them UI, Goku’s flaws and how the TOP awakened him to a flaw he gained in BOG. (Here is my link to my thread on Goku and how is character works with UI)

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42508

My point being here is that while Goku is in the right to Jiren’s wrong idea that strength comes from solitude, he himself has a lot to work on and is still very flawed when it comes to relying on his friends and his ability to distance his emotions, focus, and be serious.

You misunderstand what I mean by the rage boosts and why they shouldn't happen: they shouldn't because it mechanically doesn't make any sense. For one thing, nobody but Gohan got rage power-ups before and Super handing it out to Goku and/or Vegeta between the two versions of Super is just not understanding the original run at all. Moreover, if these forms aren't meant to be used in this way, why then does rage even give them more power? If you want to convey that rage screws up Blue and UI, why aren't they immediately losing power thanks to their weakened focus instead of getting more for brief instances? Oh, because we can't milk Gohan's rage boosts anymore so we'll hand them out to Goku and/or Vegeta.

Going back to the thematic point, ignoring entirely my rant about the mechanics behind why the rage boosts are totally stupid, the message is muddled either way. The entire climax is painted as "Goku wins because he trusts and cares about people, Jiren losses because he won't". Him getting mad over Jiren attacking his friends is meant to make us go "Fuck yeah! Beat him up Goku!", a moment of empowerment that's supposed to fit into this theme but it completely goes against another one.

Once again, either Goku is getting more powerful because he's removing these outside influences, or they're screwing his performance up. You CANNOT do both which is what Super does and it doesn't work. The funny thing is, you can easily fix this by making Goku's friends THE focus point, instead of saying he's just zeroing in on the battle, have him zero in on the trust placed in him to win as the focus point to empower him into Completed Ultra Instinct.

Well I guess you can look at it as a form of a retcon. Or that Goku and Vegeta’s innate potentials have increased to being around Gohan’s potential performance of where they get rage boosts, I mean this all assuming that their power never increased by rage at all in Z, or that it just wasn’t enough to close any gaps as much as Gohan’s did. The story sometimes you have to wonder of your imagination to fill-in some of those gaps.

Yes it is, but you’re looking at it like Goku fighting against Jiren himself is somehow against the theme. Look at how they frame it. Goku is the man who he is today because his friends influences him, inspired him, and helped him to gain the strength he needs, that they have pushed Goku this far and this hard, just because his friends aren’t physically there to help him fight Jiren doesn’t kill the theme, his friends are putting their trust into Goku to end this, to beat Jiren and win the tournament. They give him the fight, where as Jiren is alone despite his allies putting trust into him, he doesn’t understand it like Goku because he spent his life alone.

The power is indeed there because of his friends, but I feel the failing of the power of his UI accentuates that he has a lot to work on with his bonds and who he is as a person. Like Jiren attacking the stands he proves a somewhat of a point, that while Goku’s friends are his greatest strength they can also be his greatest weakness exemplified in the failing of his UI from the influence of his friends (weakness), but for that brief moment it ignited a fire within him to fight harder for his friends sake (strength)

[ekrolo2]

Yes, Whis has been right, but he isn’t all knowing, he expected the backfire because Goku has fallen out before due to his emotional state in UI Omen and MUI. Yes he did expect him to call out of UI from the reasons I’m about to say, but that’s all due to the explosion of anger draining him quicker.

There is no talk specifically of the rage taking it’s toll, but we can indeed infer it from Whis explanation of the state when he assumed Goku had finally mastered it or at least gotten control of the full form/technique. Whis communicates at least how UI feels emotionally and physically since he has it himself, but Goku clearly has a different version of it.

The rest of the fight plays out to show the forms flaws in how the fight plays out. Goku gets too emotional and focused in what should be an unemotional and focused and THAT’S it’s weakness even without saying it. As for SSJB having rage boosts, how Black clearly wrecks and handily defeats him clearly communicates that rage isn’t the key to mastering SSJB.

You’re thinking that 130, and 131 works against 129 when it you shoukd see from the point of view that it actually does if you look into it. You have to look at what ROF introduces the flaws with what Whis tells them that doesn’t allow them UI, Goku’s flaws and how the TOP awakened him to a flaw he gained in BOG. (Here is my link to my thread on Goku and how is character works with UI)

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42508

My point being here is that while Goku is in the right to Jiren’s wrong idea that strength comes from solitude, he himself has a lot to work on and is still very flawed when it comes to relying on his friends and his ability to distance his emotions, focus, and be serious.

You misunderstand what I mean by the rage boosts and why they shouldn't happen: they shouldn't because it mechanically doesn't make any sense. For one thing, nobody but Gohan got rage power-ups before and Super handing it out to Goku and/or Vegeta between the two versions of Super is just not understanding the original run at all. Moreover, if these forms aren't meant to be used in this way, why then does rage even give them more power? If you want to convey that rage screws up Blue and UI, why aren't they immediately losing power thanks to their weakened focus instead of getting more for brief instances? Oh, because we can't milk Gohan's rage boosts anymore so we'll hand them out to Goku and/or Vegeta.

Going back to the thematic point, ignoring entirely my rant about the mechanics behind why the rage boosts are totally stupid, the message is muddled either way. The entire climax is painted as "Goku wins because he trusts and cares about people, Jiren losses because he won't". Him getting mad over Jiren attacking his friends is meant to make us go "Fuck yeah! Beat him up Goku!", a moment of empowerment that's supposed to fit into this theme but it completely goes against another one.

Once again, either Goku is getting more powerful because he's removing these outside influences, or they're screwing his performance up. You CANNOT do both which is what Super does and it doesn't work. The funny thing is, you can easily fix this by making Goku's friends THE focus point, instead of saying he's just zeroing in on the battle, have him zero in on the trust placed in him to win as the focus point to empower him into Completed Ultra Instinct.

Well I guess you can look at it as a form of a retcon. Or that Goku and Vegeta’s innate potentials have increased to being around Gohan’s potential performance of where they get rage boosts, I mean this all assuming that their power never increased by rage at all in Z, or that it just wasn’t enough to close any gaps as much as Gohan’s did. The story sometimes you have to wonder of your imagination to fill-in some of those gaps.

Yes it is, but you’re looking at it like Goku fighting against Jiren himself is somehow against the theme. Look at how they frame it. Goku is the man who he is today because his friends influences him, inspired him, and helped him to gain the strength he needs, that they have pushed Goku this far and this hard, just because his friends aren’t physically there to help him fight Jiren doesn’t kill the theme, his friends are putting their trust into Goku to end this, to beat Jiren and win the tournament. They give him the fight, where as Jiren is alone despite his allies putting trust into him, he doesn’t understand it like Goku because he spent his life alone.

The power is indeed there because of his friends, but I feel the failing of the power of his UI accentuates that he has a lot to work on with his bonds and who he is as a person. Like Jiren attacking the stands he proves a somewhat of a point, that while Goku’s friends are his greatest strength they can also be his greatest weakness exemplified in the failing of his UI from the influence of his friends (weakness), but for that brief moment it ignited a fire within him to fight harder for his friends sake (strength)

Goku and Vegeta got angry in quite a few instances before and never got power boosts from it. While it's plausible they're now Gohan level potential monsters, that's never really delved into or brought up and goes against their characters if you ask me. They're the guys who are about reaching a particular level then forcibly going past what should be possible for them, not like Gohan whose got a massive available pool from the start and just needs to unlock it. Regardless, I don't bend over backwards for the good DB content and I certainly won't for Super with head canons meant to cover writing faults.

I know what the theme is:Goku is where he is because of his friends and succeeds whereas Jiren is alone. The problem as I've already said is the message gets muddied, 129 wants to emphasize Goku's sole focus on the battle as the key to his power when the episodes proceeding and leading into it are going for something on the opposite spectrum. It doesn't jell, especially when Goku's rage out in Completed UI is very clearly meant as an empowering moment, not one we're supposed to see as a strength and weakness simultaneously.

It's basically the same way Toppo said justice didn't matter a few episodes before him casting justice actually aside happens. Both instances are symptomatic of Supers general writing faults, in one episode 2+2=4, the one after it? It equals ZXY with the fandom spouting their own head canons to bend over and cover the writings faults.

You might find thematic subtext here and kudos to you for doing so, me? All I see is a mess.

[Master Xar]

You misunderstand what I mean by the rage boosts and why they shouldn't happen: they shouldn't because it mechanically doesn't make any sense. For one thing, nobody but Gohan got rage power-ups before and Super handing it out to Goku and/or Vegeta between the two versions of Super is just not understanding the original run at all. Moreover, if these forms aren't meant to be used in this way, why then does rage even give them more power? If you want to convey that rage screws up Blue and UI, why aren't they immediately losing power thanks to their weakened focus instead of getting more for brief instances? Oh, because we can't milk Gohan's rage boosts anymore so we'll hand them out to Goku and/or Vegeta.

Going back to the thematic point, ignoring entirely my rant about the mechanics behind why the rage boosts are totally stupid, the message is muddled either way. The entire climax is painted as "Goku wins because he trusts and cares about people, Jiren losses because he won't". Him getting mad over Jiren attacking his friends is meant to make us go "Fuck yeah! Beat him up Goku!", a moment of empowerment that's supposed to fit into this theme but it completely goes against another one.

Once again, either Goku is getting more powerful because he's removing these outside influences, or they're screwing his performance up. You CANNOT do both which is what Super does and it doesn't work. The funny thing is, you can easily fix this by making Goku's friends THE focus point, instead of saying he's just zeroing in on the battle, have him zero in on the trust placed in him to win as the focus point to empower him into Completed Ultra Instinct.

Well I guess you can look at it as a form of a retcon. Or that Goku and Vegeta’s innate potentials have increased to being around Gohan’s potential performance of where they get rage boosts, I mean this all assuming that their power never increased by rage at all in Z, or that it just wasn’t enough to close any gaps as much as Gohan’s did. The story sometimes you have to wonder of your imagination to fill-in some of those gaps.

Yes it is, but you’re looking at it like Goku fighting against Jiren himself is somehow against the theme. Look at how they frame it. Goku is the man who he is today because his friends influences him, inspired him, and helped him to gain the strength he needs, that they have pushed Goku this far and this hard, just because his friends aren’t physically there to help him fight Jiren doesn’t kill the theme, his friends are putting their trust into Goku to end this, to beat Jiren and win the tournament. They give him the fight, where as Jiren is alone despite his allies putting trust into him, he doesn’t understand it like Goku because he spent his life alone.

The power is indeed there because of his friends, but I feel the failing of the power of his UI accentuates that he has a lot to work on with his bonds and who he is as a person. Like Jiren attacking the stands he proves a somewhat of a point, that while Goku’s friends are his greatest strength they can also be his greatest weakness exemplified in the failing of his UI from the influence of his friends (weakness), but for that brief moment it ignited a fire within him to fight harder for his friends sake (strength)

Goku and Vegeta got angry in quite a few instances before and never got power boosts from it. While it's plausible they're now Gohan level potential monsters, that's never really delved into or brought up and goes against their characters if you ask me. They're the guys who are about reaching a particular level then forcibly going past what should be possible for them, not like Gohan whose got a massive available pool from the start and just needs to unlock it. Regardless, I don't bend over backwards for the good DB content and I certainly won't for Super with head canons meant to cover writing faults.

I know what the theme is:Goku is where he is because of his friends and succeeds whereas Jiren is alone. The problem as I've already said is the message gets muddied, 129 wants to emphasize Goku's sole focus on the battle as the key to his power when the episodes proceeding and leading into it are going for something on the opposite spectrum. It doesn't jell, especially when Goku's rage out in Completed UI is very clearly meant as an empowering moment, not one we're supposed to see as a strength and weakness simultaneously.

It's basically the same way Toppo said justice didn't matter a few episodes before him casting justice actually aside happens. Both instances are symptomatic of Supers general writing faults, in one episode 2+2=4, the one after it? It equals ZXY with the fandom spouting their own head canons to bend over and cover the writings faults.

You might find thematic subtext here and kudos to you for doing so, me? All I see is a mess.

I mean. Yes the story doesn’t tell you through dialogue, but you can at least infer it from what the show is showing you. Interpreting what the writer’s intent and the themes, developments, and knowledge through showing and telling is the basis of discussion here man.

You think Headcanon is some form of bad or awful thing to do, but it’s inferring what the writer(s) are trying to convey to you without them outright telling you. Do you need the writers to explain to you? Or is what they are showing and telling you enough to not need an explanation for it? That’s what makes classic shows/anime like Avatar, Evangelion, Gurren Lagann, Kill la Kill, etc. you have to figure out what a writer is trying to tell you. If every show ever was extremely upfront about it’s themes, lessons, intricacies, and those characters there’d... really be no point in discussing the show, everything would be wrapped up in a tight little bow and is so obvious. Storytelling is an art form, and with art comes interpretation of the message or what the creator is trying to tell you through not telling it as much as if not more so than outright telling or giving an exposition dump about it.

Not within the context. Again Whis doesn’t know all the details here of how much Goku has mastered UI as he seems to not be quite sure himself. Goku has always had gained strength by not only fighting and developing himself, but through fighting for his friends. But show is showing us Goku slowly turning the tables that Jiren is still in the wrong, Goku would have still beat Jiren even if he hadn’t shot at the stands and pissed off Goku he’d have still won as with UI it is a power thematically he couldn’t have achieved if his friends hadn’t pushed him to get there, and he practically was winning anyway before Jiren blasted at the stands.

Also with What Jiren says and the show is showing us, Goku’s allies are just as much a strength than they are a weakness here.

Well Toppo while he was losing his sense of Justice in the episodes prior, he still held a tiny bit of hope for Justice even without saying it, it’s all conveyed through what the character does and does not do or say. It’s when he is cornered and desperate to where he finally comes to a decision when he needed one or two choices: Survive or Die. And yes the analysis of an arc or story should be judged when the entire thing is said and done to convey what the writer is trying to say here.

Well you seem to be the type for could hard facts and want the story to tell you what it means without inferring or finding out so yourself here, I mean what I said in point 1, headcanon and the understanding of “what does this say, what does this mean.” Is the exact point of the thread here when we look at Megumi Ishitani to explain how she used the direction of the episode to convey the turmoil in Jiren and how she communicated it without a dialogue or exposition dump, that’d be too open and shut on the character.

To convey my point let’s look at your recent video on the Universal Survival arc’s faults (TBF I agree with your first point on the time limit), but your second and third point rings a bit hollow without the interpretation, your second point rings true about the story showing us that the characters are powering up, but would it be headcanon to say that because there is no exposition to outright say it that we can’t say that they’re powering up? Even with all the prior context and the visual indicators aka what the story is showing you? Those dialogue and exposition bits may be pointless to you yourself (I agree with this too, but I’m just making a point), but who’s to say another person doesn’t need them?

And then comes the third point with the episodic approach with the fights, and how the fights aren’t continuous. I mean yes the story does that and it is indeed a choice. But what are the writers trying to say about the tournament with it’s episodic approach and the context of what the tournament is? Ill give you my interpretation for what I mean. Let’s think about it here, this is an 80 man battle royale with characters faster than light or what have you, it’s episodic approach conveys a good sense of chaos and that it’s a free for all, have you ever looked at a massive multi-man brawl? Hell the look at the WWE Royal Rumble and it’s basically this.

Do you get my point?

[ekrolo2]

I mean. Yes the story doesn’t tell you through dialogue, but you can at least infer it from what the show is showing you. Interpreting what the writer’s intent and the themes, developments, and knowledge through showing and telling is the basis of discussion here man.

You think Headcanon is some form of bad or awful thing to do, but it’s inferring what the writer(s) are trying to convey to you without them outright telling you. Do you need the writers to explain to you? Or is what they are showing and telling you enough to not need an explanation for it? That’s what makes classic shows/anime like Avatar, Evangelion, Gurren Lagann, Kill la Kill, etc. you have to figure out what a writer is trying to tell you. If every show ever was extremely upfront about it’s themes, lessons, intricacies, and those characters there’d... really be no point in discussing the show, everything would be wrapped up in a tight little bow and is so obvious. Storytelling is an art form, and with art comes interpretation of the message or what the creator is trying to tell you through not telling it as much as if not more so than outright telling or giving an exposition dump about it.

The difference between the stuff you list and Super, those shows for all their ambiguity have consistency elsewhere least of all consistent quality that lets you build off a reasonable expectation that there's more going on and forgive some issues that arise from said ambiguity. Super is not one of those shows, its baseline is honestly not very good and many, many instances just come off as miscommunication between writers and things arbitrarily happening without a care of what proceeded it or what it actually implies.

The rage out is one such example, you think it's supposed to simultaneously convey a sense of strength and weakness? All I see is a dumb genre convention being played straight with no care to the context its happening in. The same way Freeza on Namek is supposedly terrible at sensing abilities only for him to, with absolute mathematical precision, cite exactly how much juice he has while powering up. A genre convention played straight that doesn't make sense for the person doing it.

Well, Toppo while he was losing his sense of Justice in the episodes prior, he still held a tiny bit of hope for Justice even without saying it, it’s all conveyed through what the character does and does not do or say. It’s when he is cornered and desperate to where he finally comes to a decision when he needed one or two choices: Survive or Die. And yes the analysis of an arc or story should be judged when the entire thing is said and done to convey what the writer is trying to say here.

Like I said earlier, you're willing to give Super more credit than me. I don't really see much there between Toppo's inconsistency besides well, an inconsistency based on Supers general writing deficiencies. If the intention is Toppo is losing faith in his sense of justice, then I don't really get a sense for it in that instances, he says it in such a throwaway fashion it doesn't convey anything from him.

To convey my point let’s look at your recent video on the Universal Survival arc’s faults (TBF I agree with your first point on the time limit), but your second and third point rings a bit hollow without the interpretation, your second point rings true about the story showing us that the characters are powering up, but would it be headcanon to say that because there is no exposition to outright say it that we can’t say that they’re powering up? Even with all the prior context and the visual indicators aka what the story is showing you? Those dialogue and exposition bits may be pointless to you yourself (I agree with this too, but I’m just making a point), but who’s to say another person doesn’t need them?

I would honestly start questioning said person's intelligence. To use the powering up example, there's no real excuse for it if you ask me. It's an obvious concept that happens at least once per episode, more often multiple times that there's no reason to devote pointless infodumps to it. Now, if you want to have exposition to compare say a powered up Kefla to some other character to create a bar of strength, that's fine. But the cutaways to obvious things like Krillin saying Goku is better than Kefla (because him beating her up isn't evidence enough?) or Vados saying Kefla's going all out when we can clearly see that. TBF to Super for once, this isn't a DB exclusive problem, lots and lots of anime pointlessly say things anyone with a functioning tenth of a brain cell can and should be able to figure out.

And then comes the third point with the episodic approach with the fights, and how the fights aren’t continuous. I mean yes the story does that and it is indeed a choice. But what are the writers trying to say about the tournament with it’s episodic approach and the context of what the tournament is? Ill give you my interpretation for what I mean. Let’s think about it here, this is an 80 man battle royale with characters faster than light or what have you, it’s episodic approach conveys a good sense of chaos and that it’s a free for all, have you ever looked at a massive multi-man brawl? Hell the look at the WWE Royal Rumble and it’s basically this.

Do you get my point?

I don't really agree that it gives a good sense of a chaotic battle royale, it makes it feel disjointed for what I feel is no reason. Having characters randomly switch opponents between episodes for no adequately explained reason only serves to break narrative flow if you ask, unnecessarily so. If you want someone to jump in on an ongoing battle to mess it up, why don't you just show it? This is a point I didn't really get in my video but for all the so-called chaos going around, it feels like nothing happens outside of what see on the camera. Every battle feels like a closed off thing where this set number of people are doing things and everyone else might as well be frozen in carbonite for all we know.

[Master Xar]

I mean. Yes the story doesn’t tell you through dialogue, but you can at least infer it from what the show is showing you. Interpreting what the writer’s intent and the themes, developments, and knowledge through showing and telling is the basis of discussion here man.

You think Headcanon is some form of bad or awful thing to do, but it’s inferring what the writer(s) are trying to convey to you without them outright telling you. Do you need the writers to explain to you? Or is what they are showing and telling you enough to not need an explanation for it? That’s what makes classic shows/anime like Avatar, Evangelion, Gurren Lagann, Kill la Kill, etc. you have to figure out what a writer is trying to tell you. If every show ever was extremely upfront about it’s themes, lessons, intricacies, and those characters there’d... really be no point in discussing the show, everything would be wrapped up in a tight little bow and is so obvious. Storytelling is an art form, and with art comes interpretation of the message or what the creator is trying to tell you through not telling it as much as if not more so than outright telling or giving an exposition dump about it.

The difference between the stuff you list and Super, those shows for all their ambiguity have consistency elsewhere least of all consistent quality that lets you build off a reasonable expectation that there's more going on and forgive some issues that arise from said ambiguity. Super is not one of those shows, its baseline is honestly not very good and many, many instances just come off as miscommunication between writers and things arbitrarily happening without a care of what proceeded it or what it actually implies.

The rage out is one such example, you think it's supposed to simultaneously convey a sense of strength and weakness? All I see is a dumb genre convention being played straight with no care to the context its happening in. The same way Freeza on Namek is supposedly terrible at sensing abilities only for him to, with absolute mathematical precision, cite exactly how much juice he has while powering up. A genre convention played straight that doesn't make sense for the person doing it.

Well, Toppo while he was losing his sense of Justice in the episodes prior, he still held a tiny bit of hope for Justice even without saying it, it’s all conveyed through what the character does and does not do or say. It’s when he is cornered and desperate to where he finally comes to a decision when he needed one or two choices: Survive or Die. And yes the analysis of an arc or story should be judged when the entire thing is said and done to convey what the writer is trying to say here.

Like I said earlier, you're willing to give Super more credit than me. I don't really see much there between Toppo's inconsistency besides well, an inconsistency based on Supers general writing deficiencies. If the intention is Toppo is losing faith in his sense of justice, then I don't really get a sense for it in that instances, he says it in such a throwaway fashion it doesn't convey anything from him.

To convey my point let’s look at your recent video on the Universal Survival arc’s faults (TBF I agree with your first point on the time limit), but your second and third point rings a bit hollow without the interpretation, your second point rings true about the story showing us that the characters are powering up, but would it be headcanon to say that because there is no exposition to outright say it that we can’t say that they’re powering up? Even with all the prior context and the visual indicators aka what the story is showing you? Those dialogue and exposition bits may be pointless to you yourself (I agree with this too, but I’m just making a point), but who’s to say another person doesn’t need them?

I would honestly start questioning said person's intelligence. To use the powering up example, there's no real excuse for it if you ask me. It's an obvious concept that happens at least once per episode, more often multiple times that there's no reason to devote pointless infodumps to it. Now, if you want to have exposition to compare say a powered up Kefla to some other character to create a bar of strength, that's fine. But the cutaways to obvious things like Krillin saying Goku is better than Kefla (because him beating her up isn't evidence enough?) or Vados saying Kefla's going all out when we can clearly see that. TBF to Super for once, this isn't a DB exclusive problem, lots and lots of anime pointlessly say things anyone with a functioning tenth of a brain cell can and should be able to figure out.

And then comes the third point with the episodic approach with the fights, and how the fights aren’t continuous. I mean yes the story does that and it is indeed a choice. But what are the writers trying to say about the tournament with it’s episodic approach and the context of what the tournament is? Ill give you my interpretation for what I mean. Let’s think about it here, this is an 80 man battle royale with characters faster than light or what have you, it’s episodic approach conveys a good sense of chaos and that it’s a free for all, have you ever looked at a massive multi-man brawl? Hell the look at the WWE Royal Rumble and it’s basically this.

Do you get my point?

I don't really agree that it gives a good sense of a chaotic battle royale, it makes it feel disjointed for what I feel is no reason. Having characters randomly switch opponents between episodes for no adequately explained reason only serves to break narrative flow if you ask, unnecessarily so. If you want someone to jump in on an ongoing battle to mess it up, why don't you just show it? This is a point I didn't really get in my video but for all the so-called chaos going around, it feels like nothing happens outside of what see on the camera. Every battle feels like a closed off thing where this set number of people are doing things and everyone else might as well be frozen in carbonite for all we know.

1.) well yes of course, but that lies in things like Animation, music, direction. And on the viewers knowledge of both in-universe and out-of-universe logic to say “does this make sense to me?” Or to rephrase “Do I understand what the people behind this show are trying to speak to me with?”
You can say it is a fault or mess up of the team behind it, that meta-wise there is a screw-up, but that is just as much of an assumption or headcanon than simply trusting the writers and looking at the show for what it is, and what it is trying to say... you aren’t going to find yourself liking many shows if you always look at something through a “meta” lense or thinking there is some form of miscommunication.

2.) Yes, but again that is not a very fun way to look at a story if you are always going to look at something as “generic” or “cliché” when you can really look at it for how it fits in the universe it does, and the in-universe and out of universe job to convey all this. I see the “rage” being a consistent example of showing of a Saiyan’s potential with or without transformation sake. And given your prior comment you see potential in a different light. Potential is simply the showing the capacity to grow. Growth can be interpreted as the surpassing of one’s current limits. And with how Goku and Vegeta constantly get rage boosts and surpass their limits in Super, I’d say their potential is considerably higher than ever before in the series.

And with Freeza, my explanation is that while he can’t sense the power of others, he does have a good grasp on his own power and I feel it makes sense. Have you ever punched or simply haven’t hit something as hard as you could? Or if you feel it is simply as far as his current ki control goes we can still equate that because there really never has been a character in the series that hasn’t been aware of if of their own ki levels are at a certain level or not.


3.) Well that depends if you think it makes sense or Toppo to say this? If we are already feeling like it makes sense from what he said before. Let’s look into “Why did Toppo say this?” Let’s look at it from how Toppo’s personality is, he is very clearly an outspoken man that likes to pronounce his morals openly given how he speaks of his “Justice” a lot. Now we ask “why does he feel the need to say this out loud currently?” Well he said it when grouped up with Dyspo and Jiren to also express his opinion on what they should do as a strategy from here on out. He as a teammate is simply say “guys these people have no moral standards, there is no justice, if we are going to win and survive we have to be as justiceless as them...” which not only adds to the theme of “survival” in the tournament, but the betrayal of morals in the face of conflict when he later fights Vegeta.

4.) Well yes of course, that obvious to us because we know and understand the context and the visual indications as longtime Dragonball fans, but again that person could have used it, you can get a feel for why they do or don’t do it at the very least. I also have a meta-reasoning as to why they do it at least if that’s makes you feel any better.


from researching AnimeAjay and Totally Not Mark’s videos. That it saves time on drawing and animation, it’s there to save time or get the viewers eyesight away from the fight so they don’t animate the fight as much... not to say this is lazy, just the show working with it’s limitations as the schedule was still pretty awful. It helped us deliver on those big impactful moments the show actually delivers on. But I do still agree that they could have used the chance for exposition better or give more insight to how the characters feel about the tournament other than reacting to the situations.

5.) well that feel goes into the limitations of animation and what the people of this show can convey. Art takes times, and as opposed to a seasonal anime, this is a weekly show. And as far as what the team can work with here does the show still speak clearly to you even with it’s limitations? That’s why I made my thread on Minus that “can the manga still speak to me or do I personally get anything out of it even with it being a 15 page story?”

Yes the fights can feel isolated at least from a few times to give fights some form of flow and consistency within it’s chaos with the episodes or show the important fights. But the reason it feels so is because there is not as much things in the background to animated or convey that multiple fights are happening. The animation team was pretty smart with how they used the background explosions at the beginning of the tournament to convey the chaos, but as the fights get less and less, so does the background animation and things happening.

As far as showing the transition of characters fighting the other, why does the show really need to? I can already guess that they somehow interrupted the fight from the last episode and I can guess that. As well as to say that there is “flow” here that’s mainly the point that there is no consistent flow and that portrays chaos so well. Will this fight continue in the next episode? Or will it be interrupted for another fight? Who the hell knows and I personally loved that about the arc since this is a battle royale after all.

[ekrolo2]

1.) well yes of course, but that lies in things like Animation, music, direction. And on the viewers knowledge of both in-universe and out-of-universe logic to say “does this make sense to me?” Or to rephrase “Do I understand what the people behind this show are trying to speak to me with?”
You can say it is a fault or mess up of the team behind it, that meta-wise there is a screw-up, but that is just as much of an assumption or headcanon than simply trusting the writers and looking at the show for what it is, and what it is trying to say... you aren’t going to find yourself liking many shows if you always look at something through a “meta” lense or thinking there is some form of miscommunication.

I am seeing the show for what it is: it's a mess that was rushed out the door and created by people who never got the proper time to iron out the kinks and being planned out by a man who was terrible at planning back when he was a good writer. It's not viewing something as meta, it's the series itself failing to mask the behind the scenes problems by creating something to invest in.

2.) Yes, but again that is not a very fun way to look at a story if you are always going to look at something as “generic” or “cliché” when you can really look at it for how it fits in the universe it does, and the in-universe and out of universe job to convey all this. I see the “rage” being a consistent example of showing of a Saiyan’s potential with or without transformation sake. And given your prior comment you see potential in a different light. Potential is simply the showing the capacity to grow. Growth can be interpreted as the surpassing of one’s current limits. And with how Goku and Vegeta constantly get rage boosts and surpass their limits in Super, I’d say their potential is considerably higher than ever before in the series.

And with Freeza, my explanation is that while he can’t sense the power of others, he does have a good grasp on his own power and I feel it makes sense. Have you ever punched or simply haven’t hit something as hard as you could? Or if you feel it is simply as far as his current ki control goes we can still equate that because there really never has been a character in the series that hasn’t been aware of if of their own ki levels are at a certain level or not.

And I see the rage as a fundamental misunderstanding of how it worked in pre-established continuity and an example of Dragon Ball taking tropes from its inferior successors and playing it straight because that's expected of a shonen fighting series. I don't go into this stuff looking for the cliches, but when your series avoided the very same pitfalls its successors not only ran with but popularized, something has gone terribly wrong and it sticks out very much.

The Freeza thing is a wuxia trope, basic research will show it to you. Characters in wuxia constantly spout exact percentages of their powers which is fine, unless you're someone like Freeza's who's supposedly bad at controlling his. This isn't an interpretation: Freeza constantly says his ability to control his power is shit, hence why he creates forms to suppress it and then he starts shouting 73%, 62% with precise mathematical precision.

3.) Well that depends if you think it makes sense or Toppo to say this? If we are already feeling like it makes sense from what he said before. Let’s look into “Why did Toppo say this?” Let’s look at it from how Toppo’s personality is, he is very clearly an outspoken man that likes to pronounce his morals openly given how he speaks of his “Justice” a lot. Now we ask “why does he feel the need to say this out loud currently?” Well he said it when grouped up with Dyspo and Jiren to also express his opinion on what they should do as a strategy from here on out. He as a teammate is simply say “guys these people have no moral standards, there is no justice, if we are going to win and survive we have to be as justiceless as them...” which not only adds to the theme of “survival” in the tournament, but the betrayal of morals in the face of conflict when he later fights Vegeta.

Okay, if Toppo is already on the "fuck justice" bandwagon, why do we then make a big deal out of his sacrificing his morals later on? Why isn't he already going GoD to become as ruthless as the enemies he perceives around him? Like a lot of Super writing, it feels I need to engineer arbitrary explanations to justify a bad show and I am not doing that. The rest of the DB fandom bends over backwards for it enough without my assistance.

5.) well that feel goes into the limitations of animation and what the people of this show can convey. Art takes times, and as opposed to a seasonal anime, this is a weekly show. And as far as what the team can work with here does the show still speak clearly to you even with it’s limitations? That’s why I made my thread on Minus that “can the manga still speak to me or do I personally get anything out of it even with it being a 15 page story?”

Yes the fights do feel isolated at least from the beginning to give fights some form of flow and consistency within it’s chaos with the episodes or show the important fights. But the reason it feels so is because there is not as much things in the background to animated or convey that multiple fights are happening. The animation team was pretty smart with how they used the background explosions at the beginning of the tournament to convey the chaos, but as the fights get less and less, so does the background animation and things happening.

As far as showing the transition of characters fighting the other, why does the show really need to? I can already guess that they somehow interrupted the fight from the last episode and I can guess that. As well as to say that there is “flow” here that’s mainly the point that there is no consistent flow and that portray chaos so well. Will this fight continue in the next episode? Or will it be interrupted for another fight? Who the hell knows and I personally loved that about the arc since this is a battle royals after all.

I'm aware of the animation limitations and no, I do not think the show conveys the chaos. Constantly it feels as though fights happen in isolated spaces where nothing random or crazy happens, there's no unexpected interruptions from someone on the sidelines getting in on it, it feels like everyone is neatly arranged into their own little bubbles and nothing of worth happens outside it.

As for the interrupting thing, once again, you're willing to go makes guesses and assumptions and I'm not. I don't care enough to make headcanons and explanations for why people randomly fight other people between episodes, that's the job of the writers, not me. You say it adds to the theme of chaos but I don't, that feels like an arbitrary cop out to excuse aforementioned production problems where writers can't be bothered to keep track of who's doing what at a given moment.