Was Vegeta "third time's the charm" for a rival?

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

So after rereading and rewatching the OG series a year or two back, it made me think. Tien seemed to be set up as Goku's main rival but then piccolo over shadowed that at the end of DB. Then in Z, it was later established Vegeta would be Goku's main rival. Was there ever a reason why Toriyama went through some of these archatypes and finally settled on Vegeta? I don't mind Vegeta, heck his redemption arc is really great but it majorly sidelined Tien and Piccolo while still active as a side character, but isn't as big of a character as he once was.

[KBABZ]

I think Tien was redeemed "too quickly" and was overshadowed by Piccolo Jr. who had a much more personal relationship with Goku. However like Tien, Piccolo is eventually "redeemed" about the same time Vegeta shows up. Given that Vegeta is a Saiyan like Goku he shares the same fighting spirit but is also a huge asshole, so on top of the much longer redemption arc and him dedicating his life to keeping up with Goku, he's a much more long-term rival than Tien or Piccolo by the way the story was writter.

[ABED]

From what little we knew about Tenshinhan, I have little issue with the length of his arc. I might not have bought it had we seen him do much worse than break Yamcha's leg and be a dick.

Vegeta's rivalry with Goku makes the most sense as the ongoing story.

[Michsi]

I know I've said this before, but Vegeta's status as the rival is a modern DB concept. The original story never acknowledged this position for Vegeta, and it's made painfully obvious by the fact that Goku never reciprocates it. Toriyama said in an interview that Vegeta was useful to have around as a character, so I think the reason he stayed semi-antagonistic throughout most of Z had more to do with him being used to further the plot (help Cell reach perfection, release Boo, etc) not necessarily to be Goku's rival.

[KBABZ]

I know I've said this before, but Vegeta's status as the rival is a modern DB concept. The original story never acknowledged this position for Vegeta, and it's made painfully obvious by the fact that Goku never reciprocates it. Toriyama said in an interview that Vegeta was useful to have around as a character, so I think the reason he stayed semi-antagonistic throughout most of Z had more to do with him being used to further the plot (help Cell reach perfection, release Boo, etc) not necessarily to be Goku's rival.

The problem I have with that is that Goku is too happy-go-lucky to ever consider anyone to be his rival. He certainly treats Frieza lightly when he returns to Earth after Namek and again with his Golden Form, and seriously underestimates him the second time. Likewise, while I'm sure he acknowledges that Vegeta considers him a rival, I wouldn't expect him to say vice versa is true as well. He's too jolly and casual for that in my opinion (although that jolly nature combined with his natural talents his annoyed the three on more than one occasion).

After their first encounter and certainly after Namek, Vegeta starts measuring his own self-worth in how he compares to Goku as a fighter, and strives to best him. He also has made numerous boasts that he's got a situation under control and Kakarot is not required at all, almost as if he thinks that will upset Goku (and it certainly makes Vegeta feel a lot better about himself). To me that sounds very much like he considers Goku his rival.

[Michsi]

I know I've said this before, but Vegeta's status as the rival is a modern DB concept. The original story never acknowledged this position for Vegeta, and it's made painfully obvious by the fact that Goku never reciprocates it. Toriyama said in an interview that Vegeta was useful to have around as a character, so I think the reason he stayed semi-antagonistic throughout most of Z had more to do with him being used to further the plot (help Cell reach perfection, release Boo, etc) not necessarily to be Goku's rival.

The problem I have with that is that Goku is too happy-go-lucky to ever consider anyone to be his rival. He certainly treats Frieza lightly when he returns to Earth after Namek and again with his Golden Form, and seriously underestimates him the second time. Likewise, while I'm sure he acknowledges that Vegeta considers him a rival, I wouldn't expect him to say vice versa is true as well. He's too jolly and casual for that in my opinion (although that jolly nature combined with his natural talents his annoyed the three on more than one occasion).

After their first encounter and certainly after Namek, Vegeta starts measuring his own self-worth in how he compares to Goku as a fighter, and strives to best him. He also has made numerous boasts that he's got a situation under control and Kakarot is not required at all, almost as if he thinks that will upset Goku (and it certainly makes Vegeta feel a lot better about himself). To me that sounds very much like he considers Goku his rival.

Yes, from Vegeta's perspective, Goku is his rival. But Vegeta isn't the protagonist, and that's what I meant with that feeling never being truly reciprocated in the original story. The rival status is determined by the main character, as in who it is that they view as the rival. My best example for this is when Trunks and Goten fight in the tournament; Vegeta takes everything extremely personal and acts like Trunks winning was his win over Goku, and all the while Goku is as indifferent as can be.
It's only in Super that Goku pays more attention to Vegeta, and as a result, so does the entire show.

[ABED]

It's still a rivalry, if only one sided. They are both constantly after the same thing.

The rival status is determined by the main character

Where did you get that idea?

[KBABZ]

Yes, from Vegeta's perspective, Goku is his rival. But Vegeta isn't the protagonist, and that's what I meant with that feeling never being truly reciprocated in the original story. The rival status is determined by the main character, as in who it is that they view as the rival. My best example for this is when Trunks and Goten fight in the tournament; Vegeta takes everything extremely personal and acts like Trunks winning was his win over Goku, and all the while Goku is as indifferent as can be.
It's only in Super that Goku pays more attention to Vegeta, and as a result, so does the entire show.

No the rival character is determined by the author, and if they're successful the audience will agree with them. In my opinion Dragon Ball is far greater than just the protagonist on the front cover, it's the wide cast of characters featured along the way in many new settings facing awesome new challenges to overcome and defeat. Not all of those revolve around Goku.

Vegeta isn't the protagonist but he has a lot of focus given to him. We follow him after his defeat on Earth all the way to Namek and we as an audience get updates on him far more frequently than we do when Goku is in space (at least when it comes to the manga and Kai). We get an insight into who he is, what makes him tick, what scares him and what drives him to do what he does, like a main character. Similarly whenever Goku is out of commission, we often get a lot of screen time to everybody else, for example Krillin, Gohan and Bulma on the Namek expedition, or that huge part in the Android Arc when Goku is suffering from the Heart Virus.

[Michsi]

Yes, from Vegeta's perspective, Goku is his rival. But Vegeta isn't the protagonist, and that's what I meant with that feeling never being truly reciprocated in the original story. The rival status is determined by the main character, as in who it is that they view as the rival. My best example for this is when Trunks and Goten fight in the tournament; Vegeta takes everything extremely personal and acts like Trunks winning was his win over Goku, and all the while Goku is as indifferent as can be.
It's only in Super that Goku pays more attention to Vegeta, and as a result, so does the entire show.

No the rival character is determined by the author, and if they're successful the audience will agree with them. In my opinion Dragon Ball is far greater than just the protagonist on the front cover, it's the wide cast of characters featured along the way in many new settings facing awesome new challenges to overcome and defeat. Not all of those revolve around Goku.

Vegeta isn't the protagonist but he has a lot of focus given to him. We follow him after his defeat on Earth all the way to Namek and we as an audience get updates on him far more frequently than we do when Goku is in space (at least when it comes to the manga and Kai). We get an insight into who he is, what makes him tick, what scares him and what drives him to do what he does, like a main character. Similarly whenever Goku is out of commission, we often get a lot of screen time to everybody else, for example Krillin, Gohan and Bulma on the Namek expedition, or that huge part in the Android Arc when Goku is suffering from the Heart Virus.

Well, yeah, that's basically the same thing. The author decides who the main character's rival is and that is relied to us through the main character and how he treats that character- same idea, different angle of the argument. No one here is denying Vegeta's importance in the original story, we all know he had a significant role and healthy portion of attention, but that alone does not make him the rival, which is what I understood this thread is about. In short, the author wasn't looking to create a rival for Goku, especially since the trope didn't seem to be as popular back then as it is now - Vegeta just sorta stumbled in the role due to how Toriyama chose to use him for the sake of the plot. It only became something more or less official later on.

[KBABZ]

Well, yeah, that's basically the same thing. The author decides who the main character's rival is and that is relied to us through the main character and how he treats that character- same idea, different angle of the argument. No one here is denying Vegeta's importance in the original story, we all know he had a significant role and healthy portion of attention, but that alone does not make him the rival, which is what I understood this thread is about. In short, the author wasn't looking to create a rival for Goku, especially since the trope didn't seem to be as popular back then as it is now - Vegeta just sorta stumbled in the role due to how Toriyama chose to use him for the sake of the plot. It only became something more or less official later on.

Given how prideful Vegeta is/was regarding his Saiyan status as a Prince and a top-class warrior, I think considering Goku a rival was inevitable after Goku let him live their first battle.

[Michsi]

Well, yeah, that's basically the same thing. The author decides who the main character's rival is and that is relied to us through the main character and how he treats that character- same idea, different angle of the argument. No one here is denying Vegeta's importance in the original story, we all know he had a significant role and healthy portion of attention, but that alone does not make him the rival, which is what I understood this thread is about. In short, the author wasn't looking to create a rival for Goku, especially since the trope didn't seem to be as popular back then as it is now - Vegeta just sorta stumbled in the role due to how Toriyama chose to use him for the sake of the plot. It only became something more or less official later on.

Given how prideful Vegeta is/was regarding his Saiyan status as a Prince and a top-class warrior, I think considering Goku a rival was inevitable after Goku let him live their first battle.

Yes, but again, that's a case of Vegeta ->Goku and that alone would not make him the rival. It would have to be Vegeta <-> Goku (or even just Vegeta <-Goku ), but again, that was barely the case in the original, so IMO, no, Toriyama wasn't looking for a rival character but ended up finding one that would essentially become a simbol this trope oddly enough.

[ABED]

This isn't whether Goku sees it that way, it's whether Toriyama does.

[Michsi]

This isn't whether Goku sees it that way, it's whether Toriyama does.

Which I already covered

Well, yeah, that's basically the same thing. The author decides who the main character's rival is and that is relied to us through the main character and how he treats that character- same idea, different angle of the argument

And I already said that Goku never treated Vegeta like he was his rival in the OG story. Definitely not to the extent he does now in Super.

[ABED]

And I don't agree with that. Goku isn't Toriyama's surrogate. If they are vying for the same thing - to be stronger, and are reasonably close then I think you can objectively say, they are rivals regardless of how either sees it. Where did the idea come from that a character has to see themself as someone's rival in order for it to constitute a rivalry?

[Michsi]

And I don't agree with that. Goku isn't Toriyama's surrogate. If they are vying for the same thing - to be stronger, and are reasonably close then I think you can objectively say, they are rivals regardless of how either sees it. Where did the idea come from that a character has to see themself as someone's rival in order for it to constitute a rivalry?

Not themselves, but the other character, as in ,each-other. And how did Goku being Toriyama's surrogate even come to be in his discussion. No one even alluded to that. All I said is that if Vegeta had been meant to be seen as "the rival", narratively speaking (and we're talking about the shonen trope here) the author would've had Goku acknowledged Vegeta as that. He never does. Anyone is fair game to him, and Vegeta doesn't catch up to him anymore after his fight with Cell. Even the story ends with Goku looking forward to fighting Uub, and completely ignores Vegeta for the tournament.

So going back to the original post: No, I don't think the author was trying different types of character to use as the MC's rival and settled on Vegeta.

[ABED]

All I said is that if Vegeta had been meant to be seen as "the rival", narratively speaking (and we're talking about the shonen trope here) the author would've had Goku acknowledged Vegeta as that.

Says who? Where does this idea come from that it has to be explicitly stated?

Vegeta is never too far behind. Pretty much every mountain that Goku climbs, Vegeta climbs not too long after, from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue. Even taking Super out of the equation, it's not a stretch to believe Vegeta wouldn't have achieved SS3 after the Buu arc.

When I said Goku isn't using Goku as a surrogate, I simply meant Toriyama doesn't have to have his main character explicitly state that he's in a rivalry. Goku's views on it don't have to be Toriyama's anymore than Vegeta's has to. Clearly Vegeta was driven to best Goku so Toriyama thought it was important even if the rivalry is one way.

[KBABZ]

To compare, Krillin never outright states that he considers Goku to be his rival, but given their similar situations, familiarity with each other and identical goals, Goku becomes Krillin's rival, even if Goku is too laid back to think the same. Vegeta X Goku is exactly the same. There's a reason Vegeta always ranks high in polls of anime rivals, and it's not because of his glutes.

[Michsi]

[Says who? Where does this idea come from that it has to be explicitly stated?

From basically 80% of modern shonen material, not to mention the editorial department. The character Sasuke was created specifically at the request of an editor. It's a marketing strategy at this point.

Vegeta is never too far behind. Pretty much every mountain that Goku climbs, Vegeta climbs not too long after, from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue. Even taking Super out of the equation, it's not a stretch to believe Vegeta wouldn't have achieved SS3 after the Buu arc.

We were talking about the original run of the story, with the idea that Toriyama was purposely trying to give Goku a rival. Stuff like SSJBlue is a modern era thing, and we already know modern DB officially treats him as Goku's rival so he does manage to keep up because he has to maintain that popular status. In the original, he never catches up to Goku after his defeat in the Cell saga and for years and years, people assumed there was at least an entire SSJ level of difference between them, especially given how Goku was already looking for a new person to fight in the last chapter.

To compare, Krillin never outright states that he considers Goku to be his rival, but given their similar situations, familiarity with each other and identical goals, Goku becomes Krillin's rival, even if Goku is too laid back to think the same. Vegeta X Goku is exactly the same. There's a reason Vegeta always ranks high in polls of anime rivals, and it's not because of his glutes.

I'm pretty sure what OP was referring to are the 'Sasuke' type characters. The position characters like KnB's Aomine or MHA's Bakugou are used for. It's not so much a character type as it is a position, a role. Rivalry existed in DB, that's for sure, it just didn't make use of this trope in a purposeful way.

[ABED]

From basically 80% of modern shonen material, not to mention the editorial department.

That's your inference.
Many, but not all. All this says is that it's a trope but not a neccessary one. If anything, it's best that they don't say it because it's too on the nose. The audience doesn't need to be told what they can see. Who's Sasuke?

Uub doesn't preclude Vegeta from being a rival. A rival is just someone who competes for the same goal(s).

[Michsi]

That's your inference.

Yes, but it's based on actual interviews and information from the industry.

Many, but not all. All this says is that it's a trope but not a neccessary one. If anything, it's best that they don't say it because it's too on the nose. The audience doesn't need to be told what they can see. Who's Sasuke?

And that's what I've been saying, too. It's a trope and one that DB didn't use. Vegeta can be seen as a rival, as this character dynamic has existed for a long time, but not THE RIVAL of the series.Based on what I've seen in the interviews and what I got from the story, there was never any deliberate attempt to settle Vegeta in that role. It was a one-sided rivalry at best, and one that Goku only occasionally paid attention to.